170 réponses à ce sujet

[Shadow Fox]

Xilizhra wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

How can one move on when one is legally disenfranchised and wholly without any land?

Stop holding onto a fairy tale,living in the past and make a new home.

Where would you suggest?

Outside of Thedas preferably somewhere unconquered.

[Vit246]

delete

Modifié par Vit246, 13 novembre 2013 - 05:06 .

[Xilizhra]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

How can one move on when one is legally disenfranchised and wholly without any land?

Stop holding onto a fairy tale,living in the past and make a new home.

Where would you suggest?

Outside of Thedas preferably somewhere unconquered.

Maybe the Veil tears will depopulate somewhere they can move into. The whole of Thedas, really, is theirs to begin with.

[dragonflight288]

My opinions of the Dalish as a whole are complicated and in many ways, conflicted. I believe the Dalish need a land of their own. I believe they have the right to seek and learn their ancient ways and study ancient artifacts if they so choose. I don't believe they and their mages need to be held to the Chantry's rules and laws about maleficar and blood mages when Dalish mages seem to have a better understanding of the Fade and Spirits. Zathrian was able to summon a spirit and bind it in the body of a wolf without getting possessed (and I'm NOT saying that's a good thing, just a comment on his control of magic,) Merrill is able to give very sound and solid advice on how to resist demons ("A sloth demon! Think active thoughts, running, jumping!")

But at the same time, I am continuously annoyed at how often they blame the humans for every single one of their problems. Forced to wander? Yeah, the Chantry did kind of give them an ultimatum, and with it comes all the challenges of living on the move. But nearly every clan we've met has always blamed all humans for every single one of their problems. They blame humans for Arlathan's fall, not just to the Imperium. They blame all humans for the destruction of the Dales, not just Orlais and possibly the Chantry.

Another thing that really annoys me about them is their victim mentality. Nothing is every their fault, they're the victims of circumstance or cold-hearted shemlens.

Most of that I can forgive. Most of it can be called understandble considering how long they've lived as they have and how closed off from everyone else they live with.

But one single abomination among them, this freak of nature gives their whole race a mark of shame.

[Angrywolves]

Not wanting to be political but there are groups all over the world that want to return to their homelands.
As far as I'm concerned there's no problem with the Dalish.
I intend to try to help them get the Dales back, if possible.

[Vit246]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

How can one move on when one is legally disenfranchised and wholly without any land?

Stop holding onto a fairy tale,living in the past and make a new home.

Where would you suggest?

Outside of Thedas preferably somewhere unconquered.

"Outside of Thedas" is blocked by either mountains or jungle or endless ocean or more humans. Why should the Dalish take such a huge risk in going outside of Thedas?

Modifié par Vit246, 13 novembre 2013 - 05:11 .

[Hugebull]

There are so many jokes I could make here, and every single one of them would get me a permaban.

Goosfraba..... Goosfraba......

[Shadow Fox]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Yet I don't see people making excuses for the other factions who do it or acting like they're faultless.

Well, I do, because I see this situation and Loghain's situation at Ostagar as being pretty much the same. They decided not to join a battle that looked hopeless (and in Loghain's case, it was hopeless) and should not be blamed for it.

Except they just stood there and watched it burn instead of you know trying to help.

....

If they tried to help, they would've been charging into a battle that looked hopeless. I said just because a battle can be won doesn't mean it always appears that way.

Hindsight is 20/20 after all. But at the time, it could've looked like a doomed battle even if they charged or, if they had, resulted in a Pyrrhic victory.

I still maintain that if they wanted to let humanity die, they could've done so without mobilizing their army and marching them through Orlesian lands and passing two cities (at least!) on the way to Montsimmard.

And as I recall, they were "reputed" to have stood by.

In that case do you believe the Warden should have simply left Ferelden to the Blight and regrouped in Orlais?And I do blame him for betraying his king and the men he claimed to care for,blaming the Wardens who died for his betrayal and using it to advance his political agenda.

Except the Dalish never fought in the Second Blight at all.

[Angrywolves]

Players who like the Dalish will help them.
Players who don't won't.
Hopefully in DAI, we can decide which course to take.

[Silfren]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Considering that in the Second Blight the Dalish left Thedas to rot and later sacked a human city then humans are right to distrust the Elves too and frankly  I don't blame humanity for kicking their asses after that.

Well I'm not defending the Dales leaving the people of Montismmard to die but neither of those two things are unique in the history of Thedas. They hardly deserve to be the single enduring legacy of the elves. Since the Fall of the Dales, humans nations have done the same and more often and recently. Yet they aren't the defining characteristics of humanity.

It's more showing some people that the Dalish aren't faultless and this isn't a simple case of humanity  just saying "Hey let's play kick the Elf" one day.

My problem with the Dalish we've met is their constant blaming of others for their problems,their unwillingness to accept the idea that they may have antagonized humanity into attacking them,their unwillingness to let go and move on and their attitude towards other elves.

Really? Because I think a lot of the people who are hellbent on insisting that the Dalish deserve their fate for the horrible way they treated Orlais could stand to be told the same thing:  the point that it's inaccurate to hold one group as entire faultless applies just as much to people who think that Orlais was totally justified in its subjugation of the Dalish.   And certainly the people who are b*tching about the Dalish being opportunistic and trying to sack Orlais should not forget that Orlais has a history of doing exactly the same damned thing. 

I wonder if it's true that the Dalish actually did refuse to help Montsimmard just for the lulz of watching it burn, or if they weren't preoccupied with their own troubles.  The idea of being too focused on your own problems to help someone else may not seem too palatable, but neither is it really all that despicable.  It's hard to help your neighbors save their own house if your own is burning down around you.  Moreover, I find it kind of hard to hold it against the Elves for an unwillingness to help Orlais when I think it's extremely likely that Orlais would have been no more eager to help them if the situation had been reversed--and I think the Elves knew that, whether or not it's true that they did just want to watch a human city burn for the fun of it.

[Silfren]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Yet I don't see people making excuses for the other factions who do it or acting like they're faultless.

Well, I do, because I see this situation and Loghain's situation at Ostagar as being pretty much the same. They decided not to join a battle that looked hopeless (and in Loghain's case, it was hopeless) and should not be blamed for it.

Except they just stood there and watched it burn instead of you know trying to help.

....

If they tried to help, they would've been charging into a battle that looked hopeless. I said just because a battle can be won doesn't mean it always appears that way.

Hindsight is 20/20 after all. But at the time, it could've looked like a doomed battle even if they charged or, if they had, resulted in a Pyrrhic victory.

I still maintain that if they wanted to let humanity die, they could've done so without mobilizing their army and marching them through Orlesian lands and passing two cities (at least!) on the way to Montsimmard.

And as I recall, they were "reputed" to have stood by.

In that case do you believe the Warden should have simply left Ferelden to the Blight and regrouped in Orlais?And I do blame him for betraying his king and the men he claimed to care for,blaming the Wardens who died for his betrayal and using it to advance his political agenda.

Except the Dalish never fought in the Second Blight at all.

I really doubt this.  The Elves would have been just as threatened by the Blight as anyone.  It's hugely unlikely they managed to avoid fighting: claims that they didn't fight sound more like humans discounting any fighting the elves did that wasn't in service to humans, honestly, because it's ridiculous to think that Elves wouldn't have had to deal with the Blight just as much as anyone else.  But I also wonder how much of the available history is accurate.  Ferelden doesn't even have clear records about what happened during its war of succession during Arland's tyranny, and that was only two hundred years ago.  The Second Blight is a lot further back than that.

Modifié par Silfren, 13 novembre 2013 - 05:29 .

[Shadow Fox]

Vit246 wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

How can one move on when one is legally disenfranchised and wholly without any land?

Stop holding onto a fairy tale,living in the past and make a new home.

Where would you suggest?

Outside of Thedas preferably somewhere unconquered.

"Outside of Thedas" is blocked by either mountains or jungle or endless ocean or more humans. Why should the Dalish take such a huge risk in going outside of Thedas?

If they want their own land away from humans and their rules they'll have to otherwise the Dalish as a whole and humanity will need to let go and learn to tolerate each other.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I don't think they came just to watch the city burn for fun because they were evil. I suspect they just didn't care about what happened to Montismmard, or that not enough of them did because their mission wasn't to help them, just to protect the Dales' border and make sure the Blight didn't affect them.

Given Emperor Drakon's practices during the war though, I imagine he would have jumped at the chance to help the Dales if the darkspawn attacked. Mainly under the hope that it would help spread the Chantry, but even so Orlais seemed committed to fighting the darkspawn wherever they could. Records of the Blights that we know are fairly detailed, there doesn't seem to be mention of significant battles with the darkspawn in the Dales during the Second Blight anywhere. Nor is there mention of battles in Rivain or Antiva. But everywhere else has a specific record of battling the Blight. Not every nation is affected by a Blight. Even the First Blight didn't seem to spread into the Ferelden valley.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 13 novembre 2013 - 05:34 .

[TEWR]

In that case do you believe the Warden should have simply left Ferelden to the Blight and regrouped in Orlais?

No, because at the time Ferelden was not a burning house. It had a strong chance to save itself still, despite what happened at Ostagar.

That said, I do think that the choice should've been available, even if it ultimately ended in "Fine, we'll save the nation if we can!".

And I do blame him for betraying his king

When you constantly warn your heirless king about the dangers of being on the front lines and see that he charged out of a defensible position, it's kinda hard to say someone's betraying their king.

and the men he claimed to care for,blaming the Wardens who died for his betrayal and using it to advance his political agenda.

From Loghain's point of view, they were to blame. And to be honest, they didn't improve their perception very well at Ostagar.

And if he had charged, the entire army would've faced a double envelopment. Darkspawn were still pouring out of the wilds and you can see how far back it goes from the bridge. Assuming they had won, it would've been a Pyrrhic victory and left them in no shape for another attack by the Darkspawn.

Except the Dalish never fought in the Second Blight at all.

Tale of Iloren.

Silfren wrote...

Ferelden doesn't even have clear records about what happened during its
war of succession during Arland's tyranny, and that was only two
hundred years ago.  The Second Blight is a lot further back than that.

Also this.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 13 novembre 2013 - 05:33 .

[Silfren]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

I don't think they came just to watch the city burn for fun because they were evil. I suspect they just didn't care about what happened to Montismmard, or that not enough of them did because their mission wasn't to help them, just to protect the Dales' border and make sure the Blight didn't affect them.

Given Emperor Drakon's practices during the war though, I imagine he would have jumped at the chance to help the Dales if the darkspawn attacked. Mainly under the hope that it would help spread the Chantry, but even so Orlais seemed committed to fighting the darkspawn wherever they could.

And given Orlais's history of advantage-taking I would be hard-pressed to consider any action taken to "help" the elves all that praiseworthy.

[Peer of the Empire]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...
King Alistair also seems to imply that the main reason the Dalish boon didn't go well was because of humans. Or at least, he feels it's something for him to make up to Mahariel.

Alistair is not a King; the Warden is

[Silfren]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

In that case do you believe the Warden should have simply left Ferelden to the Blight and regrouped in Orlais?

No, because at the time Ferelden was not a burning house. It had a strong chance to save itself still, despite what happened at Ostagar.

That said, I do think that the choice should've been available, even if it ultimately ended in "Fine, we'll save the nation if we can!".

Technically that  choice was available.  My Warden brought up the prospect of leaving Ferelden a couple times to Alistair but he shot her down every time.  Idiot wouldn't even consider the idea.

Modifié par Silfren, 13 novembre 2013 - 05:34 .

[Peer of the Empire]

Also,

Wall them off in some out of the way territory. Humankind has had enough of their malingering

[Silfren]

Xilizhra wrote...

Seboist wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

This is going to turn into another "kill all elves" thread isn't it?

Bioware themselves consider it a valid option.

Hopefully they'll switch it up some and let us annihilate a human town instead.

You know, I would actually like that idea.  The opportunity as an Elf Inquisitor (especially a Dalish!) to either save or annhilate a human town, for once.

Modifié par Silfren, 13 novembre 2013 - 05:36 .

[Silfren]

Peer of the Empire wrote...

Also,

Wall them off in some out of the way territory. Humankind has had enough of their malingering

Funnily enough, this is exactly what the Dalish themselves want and have been striving for.  Humans must not have had enough of them at all, since its Humans who keep getting in the way.

[TEWR]

Silfren wrote...

You know, I would actually like that idea.  The opportunity as an Elf Inquisitor (especially a Dalish!) to either save or annhilate a human town, for once.

Technically that choice existed as well. Redcliffe and Amaranthine.

But they lacked impact. God, how they lacked impact. Letting Redcliffe be destroyed should've resulted in more people siding with Loghain then you because it kinda validates what he's saying about the Wardens.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Silfren wrote...

And given Orlais's history of advantage-taking I would be hard-pressed to consider any action taken to "help" the elves all that praiseworthy.

That didn't really come until later. And frankly I'd definitely conisder Orlais actions during the Second Blight praiseworthy, regardless of motive. It's the most ambitious and proactive campaign against the darkspawn in history and saved more lives than probably any other army in any other Blight.

Peer of the Empire wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...
King Alistair also seems to imply that the main reason the Dalish boon didn't go well was because of humans. Or at least, he feels it's something for him to make up to Mahariel.

Alistair is not a King; the Warden is

Errr, what? Yes he is. Especially since the situation I'm describing can only happen with a Dalish Warden, who can never be King.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 13 novembre 2013 - 05:41 .

[Dave of Canada]

Xilizhra wrote...

The whole of Thedas, really, is theirs to begin with.

Not anymore.

[iOnlySignIn]

Xilizhra wrote...

iOnlySignIn wrote...

Seboist wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

This is going to turn into another "kill all elves" thread isn't it?

Bioware themselves consider it a valid option.

Evolution is not an option. It's a fact.

The Elves are doing such a great job at killing themselves that I doubt any external effort is needed.

Hopefully my Inquisitor can reverse this trend that you claim to see.

I do not claim to see it as I never performed or read about a population census in Thedas.

Everyone in the DA universe (including Merrill) claims to see it.

Modifié par iOnlySignIn, 13 novembre 2013 - 05:43 .