170 réponses à ce sujet

[Silfren]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Silfren wrote...

You know, I would actually like that idea.  The opportunity as an Elf Inquisitor (especially a Dalish!) to either save or annhilate a human town, for once.

Technically that choice existed as well. Redcliffe and Amaranthine.

But they lacked impact. God, how they lacked impact. Letting Redcliffe be destroyed should've resulted in more people siding with Loghain then you because it kinda validates what he's saying about the Wardens.

Well, I thought of that as I was writing, that someone might bring those up.  But they don't really count, because in Redcliffe your choice is to decide that you have more important things to do, or to try to save the town, and Amaranthine is more a choice of deciding which is more important to save, the Keep or the City. 

I'm talking more about the opportunity to either make an attempt to save a human city from destruction---or take an active hand in its destruction.  Maybe depending on the choices you make, a city is either an enemy outpost, or an ally.  Or maybe even you have a Warden-esque choice as hinted in Origins: destroying a city to keep it out of enemy hands, even if it means you have to kill some of its citizens.

ETA: And it would be really powerful, too, if some of the battles in Inquisition were on entirely different terms than the heros and the bad guys.  I wonder if it would be possible to have a battle or two where it's driven home that the people you're fighting are not the Other, whether that Other is expressed as a monster, Fade demon, drug-crazed maniac, or bandit.  But just another regular person trying to defend their home and family and freedom, same as you and your allies.

Modifié par Silfren, 13 novembre 2013 - 05:47 .

[Vit246]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

The whole of Thedas, really, is theirs to begin with.

Not anymore.

Thanks to Tevinter and Orlais.

Modifié par Vit246, 13 novembre 2013 - 05:44 .

[Dave of Canada]

Vit246 wrote...

Thanks to Tevinter and Orlais.

The only good thing that Tevinter ever did.

[TEWR]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

The whole of Thedas, really, is theirs to begin with.

Not anymore.

Yes, it belongs to us Dwarves. Or it will, at any rate.

Soon....

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 13 novembre 2013 - 05:48 .

[dragonflight288]

That didn't really come until later. And frankly I'd definitely conisder Orlais actions during the Second Blight praiseworthy, regardless of motive. It's the most ambitious and proactive campaign against the darkspawn in history and saved more lives than probably any other army in any other Blight.

It's quite possible, and this is a claim without proof so I'm not touting it as truth, that it wasn't the first time after the fact.

Think about it. Orlais started out as a city-state like Kirkwall. Drakon wanted to spread the Maker's word, while building an empire for himself, and through a series of exalted marches, conquered everyone else until the kingdom of Orlais was established.

We don't know the tactics used in the early stages of Orlais, but it may be possible there already was a history there. Their conquering all their neighbors would've been relatively recent history by the time the war with the Dales happened.

[iOnlySignIn]

Xilizhra wrote...

Seboist wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

This is going to turn into another "kill all elves" thread isn't it?

Bioware themselves consider it a valid option.

Hopefully they'll switch it up some and let us annihilate a human town instead.

Sure. Even primitives can have fun once in a while.

http://en.wikipedia....he_Seven_Cities

Modifié par iOnlySignIn, 13 novembre 2013 - 05:49 .

[dragonflight288]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

The whole of Thedas, really, is theirs to begin with.

Not anymore.

Yes, it belongs to us Dwarves.

May the Stone support us as we take what is rightfully ours.

Think about it, you can't go anywhere, except to sea, where the stone doesn't touch you.

[Shadow Fox]

Silfren wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Considering that in the Second Blight the Dalish left Thedas to rot and later sacked a human city then humans are right to distrust the Elves too and frankly  I don't blame humanity for kicking their asses after that.

Well I'm not defending the Dales leaving the people of Montismmard to die but neither of those two things are unique in the history of Thedas. They hardly deserve to be the single enduring legacy of the elves. Since the Fall of the Dales, humans nations have done the same and more often and recently. Yet they aren't the defining characteristics of humanity.

It's more showing some people that the Dalish aren't faultless and this isn't a simple case of humanity  just saying "Hey let's play kick the Elf" one day.

My problem with the Dalish we've met is their constant blaming of others for their problems,their unwillingness to accept the idea that they may have antagonized humanity into attacking them,their unwillingness to let go and move on and their attitude towards other elves.

Really? Because I think a lot of the people who are hellbent on insisting that the Dalish deserve their fate for the horrible way they treated Orlais could stand to be told the same thing:  the point that it's inaccurate to hold one group as entire faultless applies just as much to people who think that Orlais was totally justified in its subjugation of the Dalish.   And certainly the people who are b*tching about the Dalish being opportunistic and trying to sack Orlais should not forget that Orlais has a history of doing exactly the same damned thing. 

I wonder if it's true that the Dalish actually did refuse to help Montsimmard just for the lulz of watching it burn, or if they weren't preoccupied with their own troubles.  The idea of being too focused on your own problems to help someone else may not seem too palatable, but neither is it really all that despicable.  It's hard to help your neighbors save their own house if your own is burning down around you.  Moreover, I find it kind of hard to hold it against the Elves for an unwillingness to help Orlais when I think it's extremely likely that Orlais would have been no more eager to help them if the situation had been reversed--and I think the Elves knew that, whether or not it's true that they did just want to watch a human city burn for the fun of it.

If the Dalish did indeed attack first then Orlais was justified in retaliating it's that simple same applies in reverse.
And those nations had the right to defend themselves just as Orlais did.

Yet it's only condemnable if Orlais does it?

[Silfren]

Peer of the Empire wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...
King Alistair also seems to imply that the main reason the Dalish boon didn't go well was because of humans. Or at least, he feels it's something for him to make up to Mahariel.

Alistair is not a King; the Warden is

Sorry, but the Warden is never King.  If he marries Anora, at best he is Prince-Consort.

[Vit246]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Vit246 wrote...

Thanks to Tevinter and Orlais.

The only good thing that Tevinter ever did.

You're a strange one. You applaud humans for inflicting conditions and you despise elves for despising their conditions not entirely their fault and mostly (at least partly) brought on them by most humans. 

Modifié par Vit246, 13 novembre 2013 - 05:53 .

[Dave of Canada]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Yes, it belongs to us Dwarves. Or it will, at any rate.

Soon....

Fade tears prove to the dwarves that the surface should be sealed off and forgotten, they're hopeless.

Vit246 wrote...

Strange. You applaud humans for inflicting conditions and you despise elves for despising their conditions not entirely their fault and mostly (at least partly) brought on them by most humans. 

Humans want equality. Elves want segregation.

Everyone knows I'm all for equality!

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 13 novembre 2013 - 05:55 .

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Dwarves are too afraid of the sky to be a threat to anyone under it.

Also they've been dirven to the bring of extinciton by a millenium of endless war with a numberless army of horrifying blighted monstrocities. But mostly that first reason.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 13 novembre 2013 - 05:56 .

[I WANT YOU TO FUCK ME JERY]

Faerunner wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Seboist wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

This is going to turn into another "kill all elves" thread isn't it?

Bioware themselves consider it a valid option.

Hopefully they'll switch it up some and let us annihilate a human town instead.

That would be a nice change. I'm getting tired of open season on Dalish.

I plan on making my Inquisitor essentially Iorveth, so I'm going to be disappointed if I can't do this at some point. 

Bloede dh'oine.

Modifié par SergeantSnookie, 13 novembre 2013 - 05:59 .

[TEWR]

Dave of Canada wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Yes, it belongs to us Dwarves. Or it will, at any rate.

Soon....

Fade tears prove to the dwarves that the surface should be sealed off and forgotten, they're hopeless.

The Dwarves will combat this threat and prove that we stand mightiest among all, embracing such challenges with a fiery passion while you humans skitter away in fear.

Abominations? Hah! We've seen worse things to grace the Deep Roads, like when Oghren charges into battle naked!

Nothing will deny us our right.

[Dave of Canada]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

The Dwarves will combat this threat and prove that we stand mightiest among all, embracing such challenges with a fiery passion while you humans skitter away in fear.

As mages and templar are killing each other over individual views on magic, demons flood the land and kill everyone, ancient rituals invoke the souls of dead gods and lyrium prices sky-rocket... dwarves will remain, fearing not any of this "magic" stuff.

[Vit246]

delete.

Modifié par Vit246, 13 novembre 2013 - 05:58 .

[Dave of Canada]

Vit246 wrote...

*shrug* Its not like elven segregation involved humans or hurt anybody.

Depends who you believe.

[Silfren]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Considering that in the Second Blight the Dalish left Thedas to rot and later sacked a human city then humans are right to distrust the Elves too and frankly  I don't blame humanity for kicking their asses after that.

Well I'm not defending the Dales leaving the people of Montismmard to die but neither of those two things are unique in the history of Thedas. They hardly deserve to be the single enduring legacy of the elves. Since the Fall of the Dales, humans nations have done the same and more often and recently. Yet they aren't the defining characteristics of humanity.

It's more showing some people that the Dalish aren't faultless and this isn't a simple case of humanity  just saying "Hey let's play kick the Elf" one day.

My problem with the Dalish we've met is their constant blaming of others for their problems,their unwillingness to accept the idea that they may have antagonized humanity into attacking them,their unwillingness to let go and move on and their attitude towards other elves.

Really? Because I think a lot of the people who are hellbent on insisting that the Dalish deserve their fate for the horrible way they treated Orlais could stand to be told the same thing:  the point that it's inaccurate to hold one group as entire faultless applies just as much to people who think that Orlais was totally justified in its subjugation of the Dalish.   And certainly the people who are b*tching about the Dalish being opportunistic and trying to sack Orlais should not forget that Orlais has a history of doing exactly the same damned thing. 

I wonder if it's true that the Dalish actually did refuse to help Montsimmard just for the lulz of watching it burn, or if they weren't preoccupied with their own troubles.  The idea of being too focused on your own problems to help someone else may not seem too palatable, but neither is it really all that despicable.  It's hard to help your neighbors save their own house if your own is burning down around you.  Moreover, I find it kind of hard to hold it against the Elves for an unwillingness to help Orlais when I think it's extremely likely that Orlais would have been no more eager to help them if the situation had been reversed--and I think the Elves knew that, whether or not it's true that they did just want to watch a human city burn for the fun of it.

If the Dalish did indeed attack first then Orlais was justified in retaliating it's that simple same applies in reverse.
And those nations had the right to defend themselves just as Orlais did.

Yet it's only condemnable if Orlais does it?

Hey, I never said it was only condemnable if Orlais did it.  The problem, however, is that a lot of people are determined to blame the elves while holding Orlais blameless, even though Orlais is guilty of the same crime several times over.

At this point, I think it's a chicken or the egg question.  We don't know who started what first, and frankly it doesn't matter.  Being reduced to subhuman status and threatened with extinction is a punishment way the hell out of all proportion for whatever crimes the Dalish may have committed in the past.  Moreover, I refuse to believe that Orlais is totally guiltless in this.  

Also, that empire's propensity for attacking and conquering other nations when they are in a weakened state is well established enough that it's absurd to b*tch at the elves for possibly having done the same thing to them once.  I say it's nothing more than Orlais getting a taste of its own medicine.

Modifié par Silfren, 13 novembre 2013 - 06:07 .

[Jedi Master of Orion]

It can't be a taste of "Orlais own medicine" if they hadn't made a practice of doing it yet.They did it to Nevarra in the Towers Age. Ferelden in the Black Age (which failed). Kirkwall in the Storm Age (sort of) and Ferelden again in the Blessed Age. Back in the Glory Age, the Orlesian Empire was still quite young.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 13 novembre 2013 - 06:06 .

[Fredward]

Whenever you generalize a group of people so hard that they become one homogenous group that's easy for you to wrap your head around and attribute your preconcieved notions to its bad. It's bad when the Dalish do it, it's bad when the humans do it.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

At this point I'm just supporting a complete Dwarven takeover of the surface world.

Show those silly humans and elves how it is done!

[Shadow Fox]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

In that case do you believe the Warden should have simply left Ferelden to the Blight and regrouped in Orlais?

No, because at the time Ferelden was not a burning house. It had a strong chance to save itself still, despite what happened at Ostagar.

That said, I do think that the choice should've been available, even if it ultimately ended in "Fine, we'll save the nation if we can!".

And I do blame him for betraying his king

When you constantly warn your heirless king about the dangers of being on the front lines and see that he charged out of a defensible position, it's kinda hard to say someone's betraying their king.

and the men he claimed to care for,blaming the Wardens who died for his betrayal and using it to advance his political agenda.

From Loghain's point of view, they were to blame. And to be honest, they didn't improve their perception very well at Ostagar.

And if he had charged, the entire army would've faced a double envelopment. Darkspawn were still pouring out of the wilds and you can see how far back it goes from the bridge. Assuming they had won, it would've been a Pyrrhic victory and left them in no shape for another attack by the Darkspawn.

Except the Dalish never fought in the Second Blight at all.

Tale of Iloren.

Silfren wrote...

Ferelden doesn't even have clear records about what happened during its
war of succession during Arland's tyranny, and that was only two
hundred years ago.  The Second Blight is a lot further back than that.

Also this.

Except Ferelden was tearing itself apart in a civil war and there were only 2 fresh Grey Wardens in the country that were being activly hunted down by Loghain it was suicidal to fight a Blight in those conditions.

How exactly? Considering sabotaging that battle would hurt their efforts against the Blight.

[Silfren]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

It can't be a taste of "Orlais own medicine" if they hadn't made a practice of doing it yet.They did it to Nevarra in the Towers Age. Ferelden in the Black Age (which failed). Kirkwall in the Storm Age (sort of) and Ferelden again in the Blessed Age. Back in the Glory Age, the Orlesian Empire was still quite young.

I don't have a timeline in front of me, so I'm not clear on what happened when (and, cynically, I'm not always sure that Bioware is either).  Even so, fact is, Orlais is an opportunistic snake when it comes to imperial expansion.  I'm not going to cry over them having the thing done to them that they do to other nations. 

I would say that I'd consider it even worse for Orlais to make it a practice to invade other nations at their weakest point, after they got a taste of what it felt like to have that done to them by the Dalish.  And I'm not convinced that we have the full story on all that anyway, given the way codices work in DA, coupled with the fact that this was a very long time ago.

[Star fury]

I would have liked the warning before the game forces me to murder an entire Dalish clan. DA2 in all it's glory!

[Silfren]

Star fury wrote...

I would have liked the warning before the game forces me to murder an entire Dalish clan. DA2 in all it's glory!

I dunno, I rather like situations like that that offer no warning.  After the first playthrough you  know what's going to happen, so why not have that initial surprise and no way of anticipating a consequence?  I'd love for the entire game to be that way, with surprises around every corner.