170 réponses à ce sujet

[The Flying Grey Warden]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Trying to apply the problems Dalish sometimes have to all of them is unfair. Just like it is for humans. Not all of them have the same perspective towards humans, city elves, xenophobia or outsiders.

David Gaider says here that diffrent clans behave in different ways towards humans. Some are xenophobic and violent, others are peaceful. We run into both perspectives when meeting Dalish elves over the course of the games.

King Alistair also seems to imply that the main reason the Dalish boon didn't go well was because of humans. Or at least, he feels it's something for him to make up to Mahariel.

Bolded for the part I don't remember at all in the games.

[TEWR]

Except Ferelden was tearing itself apart in a civil war and there were only 2 fresh Grey Wardens in the country that were being activly hunted down by Loghain it was suicidal to fight a Blight in those conditions.

You only find that out for certain at Lothering, despite the grounded fears that it'll happen regardless.

Also, it'll be hard for Loghain's agents to track down the Warden, because as Kylon says (for character customization reasons mainly, but it's still lore) the Warden's wanted poster looks nothing like him/her.

And at the very least, having the Elves and Dwarves on your side should Ferelden truly become a sinking ship helps out the Orlesian Wardens if they have to come and save the day.

Also, one could argue that it's the Warden's obligation to do what he can to weaken the Blight, because that's what others would do.

In death, sacrifice.

How exactly? Considering sabotaging that battle would hurt their efforts against the Blight.

It's a lot to say, but suffice to say their secrecy on why they're needed combined with the delay of the beacon until Cailan's forces were not only breaking but the Darkspawn weren't even fully committed to the battle (and the delay was due to an invasion of the tower, but Loghain didn't know that at the time) made him think they were returning to their roots of helping Orlais spread its influence.

That they also didn't take a notable part in advising Cailan to stay off the fields and listen to his general more was also pretty damning, because it suggests they want him on the field of battle.

Then you take in events like the Calling and the Sophia Dryden rebellion against King Arland (a tyrant, surely, but most records of his tyranny were lost so the public isn't aware of the truth) and is it really all that out of hand for him to distrust the Wardens, to view them as trying to undermine Ferelden?

Not really. He's wrong, no doubt, but he's got a crapload of evidence to draw his conclusions upon that make him seem like he's right.

And if the Warden happens to leave Redcliffe to die rather then trying to save them, well, it sort of adds to his reasons to distrust them. Granted, Loghain is partly to blame for the events there (though even that had valid reasons for the incapacitation of Eamon) as are Isolde, Connor, Jowan, and even Eamon himself.

But the Warden could just reinforce the negative propaganda spreading around Ferelden by leaving the place to die.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 13 novembre 2013 - 06:25 .

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I did link it in the my next post in the thread. Also most of the individual elves we meet in Zathrian's clan are quite friendly to the Warden and companions. And the epilogue says Lanaya's leadership is what keeps peace alive if she becomes Keeper.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 13 novembre 2013 - 06:19 .

[TEWR]

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

At this point I'm just supporting a complete Dwarven takeover of the surface world.

Show those silly humans and elves how it is done!

This one understands.

Dave of Canada wrote...

As mages and templar are killing each other over individual views on
magic, demons flood the land and kill everyone, ancient rituals invoke
the souls of dead gods and lyrium prices sky-rocket... dwarves will
remain, fearing not any of this "magic" stuff.

Precisely. You understand now. We have faced worse threats and our politics are twice as deadly as these things you surfacers talk of. We will use this war to our advantage, both economically and militarily.

Join us, Dave of Canada!

[dragonflight288]

It's a lot to say, but suffice to say their secrecy on why they're needed combined with the delay of the beacon until Cailan's forces were not only breaking but the Darkspawn weren't even fully committed to the battle (and the delay was due to an invasion of the tower, but Loghain didn't know that at the time) made him think they were returning to their roots of helping Orlais spread its influence.

That they also didn't take a notable part in advising Cailan to stay off the fields and listen to his general more was also pretty damning, because it suggests they want him on the field of battle.

Then you take in events like the Calling and the Sophia Dryden rebellion against King Arland (a tyrant, surely, but most records of his tyranny were lost so the public isn't aware of the truth).

Not to mention Loghain personally witnessed Duncan's predecessor make a deal with the Architect in The Calling.

[Dave of Canada]

Foopydoopydoo wrote...

Whenever you generalize a group of people so hard that they become one homogenous group that's easy for you to wrap your head around and attribute your preconcieved notions to its bad. It's bad when the Dalish do it, it's bad when the humans do it.

Dalish as a whole want to segregate away from humanity completely in an attempt to cling onto a myth which propagates anti-human sentiments. Their society is a cancer on humanity and dwarfmanity.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Precisely. You understand now. We have faced worse threats and our politics are twice as deadly as these things you surfacers talk of. We will use this war to our advantage, both economically and militarily.

Join us, Dave of Canada!

I'm already a dwarf, one that looks suspiciously like Adachi from Persona 4.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 13 novembre 2013 - 06:23 .

[dragonflight288]

Silfren wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

It can't be a taste of "Orlais own medicine" if they hadn't made a practice of doing it yet.They did it to Nevarra in the Towers Age. Ferelden in the Black Age (which failed). Kirkwall in the Storm Age (sort of) and Ferelden again in the Blessed Age. Back in the Glory Age, the Orlesian Empire was still quite young.

I don't have a timeline in front of me, so I'm not clear on what happened when (and, cynically, I'm not always sure that Bioware is either).  Even so, fact is, Orlais is an opportunistic snake when it comes to imperial expansion.  I'm not going to cry over them having the thing done to them that they do to other nations. 

I would say that I'd consider it even worse for Orlais to make it a practice to invade other nations at their weakest point, after they got a taste of what it felt like to have that done to them by the Dalish.  And I'm not convinced that we have the full story on all that anyway, given the way codices work in DA, coupled with the fact that this was a very long time ago.

We know from History of the Chantry that Orlais started off like the Free Marches, a series of city-states and Drakon wanted to spread the Chant of Light, so he chose one of many Andrastian cults to help him conquer everyone else.

Through a series of Exalted Marches, Orlais was able to conquer all the neighboring city-states, the Chantry was established as the dominant religion, and Orlais as a country was established.

And this all would've been very recent history by the time of the second blight, as they were in the rule of Drakon's son or grandson at the time.

[Fredward]

Dave of Canada wrote...
Dalish as a whole want to segregate away from humanity completely in an attempt to cling onto a myth which propagates to breed anti-human sentiments. Their society is a cancer on humanity.

Is segragation for the sake of segragation necessarily bad? At least when it's requested by the minority in question? The Dalish in general might want to separate from human society because of their religion (just like humans destroyed their homeland in the name of theirs) but the method in doing so will no doubt differ. The idea of seizing land forcibly is very shortsighted, I can't imagine the Dalish, as a whole, support the idea.

[TEWR]

I'm already a dwarf, one that looks suspiciously like Adachi from Persona 4.

Good good.

[Vit246]

delete.

Modifié par Vit246, 13 novembre 2013 - 06:27 .

[Vit246]

Foopydoopydoo wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...
Dalish as a whole want to segregate away from humanity completely in an attempt to cling onto a myth which propagates to breed anti-human sentiments. Their society is a cancer on humanity.

Is segragation for the sake of segragation necessarily bad? At least when it's requested by the minority in question? The Dalish in general might want to separate from human society because of their religion (just like humans destroyed their homeland in the name of theirs) but the method in doing so will no doubt differ. The idea of seizing land forcibly is very shortsighted, I can't imagine the Dalish, as a whole, support the idea.

Now he's just making up stuff that doesn't even make sense. He thinks that an elven society segregated away from humans is somehow an anti-human cancer that involves and affects humans somehow.

[Dave of Canada]

Foopydoopydoo wrote...

Is segragation for the sake of segragation necessarily bad? At least when it's requested by the minority in question? The Dalish in general might want to separate from human society because of their religion (just like humans destroyed their homeland in the name of theirs) but the method in doing so will no doubt differ. The idea of seizing land forcibly is very shortsighted, I can't imagine the Dalish, as a whole, support the idea.

The Dalish segregation isn't motivated by religion but the idea that elves were immortals and humans are a literal plague to them, this breeds anti-human sentiments and outright disgust of their peers which choose to live in human civilization.

The fact that this is based entirely off stories which they've been spreading by ear over countless generations and that there's no evidence that segregation does anything (or this "plague" even exists in the first place) leads me to believe this is Dalish propaganda.

Either way is an assumption but one doesn't breed needless hostilities.

[Xilizhra]

Faerunner wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Humans want equality.

Oh yeah, because the violent race-riots and possible hate-crimes committed by humans if you elect an Elven Bann of the Denerim Alienage CLEARLY shows this. The human nobles objecting to King Alistair granting the hahren a place in his council CLEARLY shows this. Around 700 years of city elves living in supposedly free Adrastian human socities and still being second-class citizens CLEARLY shows this.
 

Elves want segregation.

Elves want to be elves without being enslaved, subjugated, or assimilated into human society. If humans constantly shove elves under-boot every time the two get into contact (from Tevinter to Arlathan, to Orlais to the Dales, to present-day Andrastian humans to city elves), then, yeah, they're naturally going to want to scoot away. If the choice is between subjugation and segregation, the elves will always prefer the latter.

Everyone knows I'm all for equality!

Clearly.

Also, Dave's more than a little on the trollish side, which is why I didn't reply. Keep in mind.

[Xilizhra]

Faerunner wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Also, Dave's more than a little on the trollish side, which is why I didn't reply. Keep in mind.

Noted.

I've said my piece, now I'm not wasting any more time here.

If you'd be willing to waste time on PMs, that's always nice.

[Vit246]

Xilizhra wrote...

Faerunner wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Also, Dave's more than a little on the trollish side, which is why I didn't reply. Keep in mind.

Noted.

I've said my piece, now I'm not wasting any more time here.

If you'd be willing to waste time on PMs, that's always nice.

I knew it. I think I had forgotten about him on the Mass Effect boards.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

The Dalish's religion and culture are at least as big a part of any Dalish desire for isolationism as a desire to reclaim their ancestors purportedly immortality. The oath of the Dales is "never again shall we submit" and very existence of the Dalish elves in the first place is based on the desire to preserve their culture and refusal to submit to human rule because it would not allow them this opportunity. That's a far more pertinent part of their day to day lives than the stories of their ancestors immortality. Particularly since humans don't like having the Dalish near their cities for too long, and usually make a point of driving them off themselves if they don't leave first.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 13 novembre 2013 - 06:38 .

[AresKeith]

Xilizhra wrote...

Faerunner wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Humans want equality.

Oh yeah, because the violent race-riots and possible hate-crimes committed by humans if you elect an Elven Bann of the Denerim Alienage CLEARLY shows this. The human nobles objecting to King Alistair granting the hahren a place in his council CLEARLY shows this. Around 700 years of city elves living in supposedly free Adrastian human socities and still being second-class citizens CLEARLY shows this.
 

Elves want segregation.

Elves want to be elves without being enslaved, subjugated, or assimilated into human society. If humans constantly shove elves under-boot every time the two get into contact (from Tevinter to Arlathan, to Orlais to the Dales, to present-day Andrastian humans to city elves), then, yeah, they're naturally going to want to scoot away. If the choice is between subjugation and segregation, the elves will always prefer the latter.

Everyone knows I'm all for equality!

Clearly.

Also, Dave's more than a little on the trollish side, which is why I didn't reply. Keep in mind.

Only because people take things way too serious with these things

[Shadow Fox]

Silfren wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Considering that in the Second Blight the Dalish left Thedas to rot and later sacked a human city then humans are right to distrust the Elves too and frankly  I don't blame humanity for kicking their asses after that.

Well I'm not defending the Dales leaving the people of Montismmard to die but neither of those two things are unique in the history of Thedas. They hardly deserve to be the single enduring legacy of the elves. Since the Fall of the Dales, humans nations have done the same and more often and recently. Yet they aren't the defining characteristics of humanity.

It's more showing some people that the Dalish aren't faultless and this isn't a simple case of humanity  just saying "Hey let's play kick the Elf" one day.

My problem with the Dalish we've met is their constant blaming of others for their problems,their unwillingness to accept the idea that they may have antagonized humanity into attacking them,their unwillingness to let go and move on and their attitude towards other elves.

Really? Because I think a lot of the people who are hellbent on insisting that the Dalish deserve their fate for the horrible way they treated Orlais could stand to be told the same thing:  the point that it's inaccurate to hold one group as entire faultless applies just as much to people who think that Orlais was totally justified in its subjugation of the Dalish.   And certainly the people who are b*tching about the Dalish being opportunistic and trying to sack Orlais should not forget that Orlais has a history of doing exactly the same damned thing. 

I wonder if it's true that the Dalish actually did refuse to help Montsimmard just for the lulz of watching it burn, or if they weren't preoccupied with their own troubles.  The idea of being too focused on your own problems to help someone else may not seem too palatable, but neither is it really all that despicable.  It's hard to help your neighbors save their own house if your own is burning down around you.  Moreover, I find it kind of hard to hold it against the Elves for an unwillingness to help Orlais when I think it's extremely likely that Orlais would have been no more eager to help them if the situation had been reversed--and I think the Elves knew that, whether or not it's true that they did just want to watch a human city burn for the fun of it.

If the Dalish did indeed attack first then Orlais was justified in retaliating it's that simple same applies in reverse.
And those nations had the right to defend themselves just as Orlais did.

Yet it's only condemnable if Orlais does it?

Hey, I never said it was only condemnable if Orlais did it.  The problem, however, is that a lot of people are determined to blame the elves while holding Orlais blameless, even though Orlais is guilty of the same crime several times over.

At this point, I think it's a chicken or the egg question.  We don't know who started what first, and frankly it doesn't matter.  Being reduced to subhuman status and threatened with extinction is a punishment way the hell out of all proportion for whatever crimes the Dalish may have committed in the past.  Moreover, I refuse to believe that Orlais is totally guiltless in this.  

Also, that empire's propensity for attacking and conquering other nations when they are in a weakened state is well established enough that it's absurd to b*tch at the elves for possibly having done the same thing to them once.  I say it's nothing more than Orlais getting a taste of its own medicine.

It's more annoyance at some people justifying the Elves launching an unprovoked attack on Orlais because they "deserved it" yet condemning Orlais for retaliating for me.

Why is that? the Dalish tried to do the same to Orlais however I do agree the Elves today shouldn't be punished for what their ancestors did.

By that logic the Dales "deserved" to be destroyed for not helping in the Blight.

[In Exile]

Foopydoopydoo wrote...
Is segragation for the sake of segragation necessarily bad? At least when it's requested by the minority in question? The Dalish in general might want to separate from human society because of their religion (just like humans destroyed their homeland in the name of theirs) but the method in doing so will no doubt differ. The idea of seizing land forcibly is very shortsighted, I can't imagine the Dalish, as a whole, support the idea.

Dodging the issue of the motivation for the segretation beliefs (I'd rather not derail this thread down that way) the problem with this view is what happens when we ask practical details like "where are they living"? 
 
While Dalish are a minority in the grand scheme of things, if they settle down, then they won't be a minority. They certainly
 aren't a minority in their nomadic communities. So it still amounts to the majority excluding a minority. 

[Fredward]

Dave of Canada wrote...
The Dalish segregation isn't motivated by religion but the idea that elves were immortals and humans are a literal plague to them, this breeds anti-human sentiments and outright disgust of their peers which choose to live in human civilization.

The fact that this is based entirely off stories which they've been spreading by ear over countless generations and that there's no evidence that segregation does anything (or this "plague" even exists in the first place) leads me to believe this is Dalish propaganda.

Either way is an assumption but one doesn't breed needless hostilities.

Their myths are irrecovably tied with their religion. So one side we have the small minded Dalish who believe they're inherently better than people which breeds resentment if not necessarily hostility and on the other the small minded humans led by the Chantry that labels anyone who believes different as valid targets for an Exalted March.

Alas. An impasse.

Modifié par Foopydoopydoo, 13 novembre 2013 - 06:42 .

[In Exile]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

The Dalish's religion and culture are at least as big a part of any Dalish desire for isolationism as a desire to reclaim their ancestors purportedly immortality. The oath of the Dales is "never again shall we submit" and very existence of the Dalish elves in the first place is based on the desire to preserve their culture and refusal to submit to human rule because it would not allow them this opportunity. That's a far more pertinent part of their day to day lives than the stories of their ancestors immortality. Particularly since humans don't like having the Dalish near their cities for too long, and usually make a point of driving them off themselves if they don't leave first.

I know I said I wouldn't go down this road... but the Dalish religion and culture is the thing that's bound up with the racism. Their religion and culture is hard to separate out from their views on immortality - especially their culture and their views on humanity. 

[Silfren]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Except Ferelden was tearing itself apart in a civil war and there were only 2 fresh Grey Wardens in the country that were being activly hunted down by Loghain it was suicidal to fight a Blight in those conditions.

You only find that out for certain at Lothering, despite the grounded fears that it'll happen regardless.

Also, it'll be hard for Loghain's agents to track down the Warden, because as Kylon says (for character customization reasons mainly, but it's still lore) the Warden's wanted poster looks nothing like him/her.

Actually Kylon says he did recognize the Warden based on the wanted poster.  He only says that it doesn't do them justice, not that it doesn't look anything like them.  I doubt customization had anything to do with that.  But not only does Kylon recognize the Warden, he does so instantly, without any hesitation at all.  Looks like Loghain actually had a very good police artist.

Modifié par Silfren, 13 novembre 2013 - 06:43 .

[Andraste Take the Wheel]

AresKeith wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Faerunner wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Humans want equality.

Oh yeah, because the violent race-riots and possible hate-crimes committed by humans if you elect an Elven Bann of the Denerim Alienage CLEARLY shows this. The human nobles objecting to King Alistair granting the hahren a place in his council CLEARLY shows this. Around 700 years of city elves living in supposedly free Adrastian human socities and still being second-class citizens CLEARLY shows this.
 

Elves want segregation.

Elves want to be elves without being enslaved, subjugated, or assimilated into human society. If humans constantly shove elves under-boot every time the two get into contact (from Tevinter to Arlathan, to Orlais to the Dales, to present-day Andrastian humans to city elves), then, yeah, they're naturally going to want to scoot away. If the choice is between subjugation and segregation, the elves will always prefer the latter.

Everyone knows I'm all for equality!

Clearly.

Also, Dave's more than a little on the trollish side, which is why I didn't reply. Keep in mind.

Only because people take things way too serious with these things

and only the people defending the elves do that...?