170 réponses à ce sujet

[TEWR]

Dave of Canada wrote...

In the same Gaider quote, he uses Zathrian as an example of Dalish living longer and we all know that isn't because of his segregation. I think he's just being evasive, he feeds off these arguments and designed Thedas to fit into the real-world knowledge of no-one really knowing in full details how things were long ago in a distant land, I, Aku, the shape-shifting Master of Darkness, unleashed an unspeakable evil! But a foolish Samurai warrior wielding a magic sword stepped forth to oppose me. Before the final blow was struck, I tore open a portal in time and flung him into the future, where my evil is law! Now the fool seeks to return to the past, and undo the future that is Aku!

I love you for that.

As for the Gaider quote, do you happen to have a link to it?

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 13 novembre 2013 - 07:19 .

[Silfren]

In Exile wrote...

Silfren wrote...
Sorry, but in context I think that the Devs point was that there's likely something to the idea of the Quickening.  I don't think they would make statements like that just to give us a "Gotcha!  It was TOTALLY just a question of their environment and living conditions!"  

Again, we have another dev on record saying the exact opposite thing. Beyond that, I read DG's post, and it absolutely reads like a coy dodge to keep the situation ambiguous, which is exactly like what they're doing with the Maker. That was a design goal from day one, which they were very public about.

Again, I'm aware that another Dev made a contradictory statement.  It doesn't mean that the first one can be ruled out, however, until someone specifically goes out of their way to address the discrepancy. 

I also agree that there's plenty of good reason for people to get pissed off at two Devs not being able to keep their own lore consistent that have nothing to do with being butthurt because you're an elf supporter.

I also think that beyond the quickening, another very good reason for segregation is the indisputable fact that elf-human pairings result in 100% human offspring.  It's in the elves interest as a people to ensure that they don't risk intermingling with humans to the point that they could breed themselves out of existence. 

There are lots of reasons that's abhorent, but I'll go with these three: this rationale justifies (i) forced marriages; (ii) forced childbirthing by elven women; and (iii) is an affirmation of a lot of offensive IRL views of racial supremacist groups. 

Saying racial segregation and moral duties to perpetuate the race are actually OK when the groups are really different races is all sorts of morally problematic. 

I don't disagree with you, but again, the problem of Elves facing extinction if they interbreed with non-elves too much is a very real issue they face.  It's not something that can be totally dismissed as abhorrent fascist thinking. 

[Dave of Canada]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

As for the Gaider quote, do you happen to have a link to it?

Here ya go.

[In Exile]

Silfren wrote...

Again, I'm aware that another Dev made a contradictory statement.  It doesn't mean that the first one can be ruled out, however, until someone specifically goes out of their way to address the discrepancy.  

It undercuts the authority of the first post. That's it. We can cook up arguments all we like about which one is right, but my point is that we're just spinng our wheels with this appeal to authority.

I don't disagree with you, but again, the problem of Elves facing extinction if they interbreed with non-elves too much is a very real issue they face.  It's not something that can be totally dismissed as abhorrent fascist thinking.   

It absolutely can be dismissed as abhorent fascist thinking. First of all, there's no actual problem. In theory, if the absolutely majority elves decided to intermarry, then maybe the elves as a distinct magical quasi-genetic whatever would cease... but so what? 

If there was ever any value in whatever the elves are, physically or magically, it's the what the elves themselves attribute to that. The idea that being elven has any value beyond the individual elves is intrinsically abhorent. 

[Shadow Fox]

Silfren wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

i think you're overestimating the importance of the stories about the Quickening in the Dalish culture. Elves haven't been immortal for over 2000 years (assuming they ever were), it's no longer a part of their day to day existence. There has never once been an elven character who we've run into who expressed disgust at a human specifically because he was disrupting his immortality. The Dalish culture they are interested in preserving has more to do with long lost knowledge and artifacts. And their worship of the Creators has nothing to do with humanity at all.

The Dalish elves' grudge against humans is almost entirely manifested in bitterness about the fall of the Dales and of Arlathan, not stealing their immortality.

It's mostly in the cultural aspect, the fact that they call humans "quick children" and a lot of codex entries mention it from the perspective of modern-day Dalish. They hate humans for losing their homeland but the Quickening is their reasoning for segregation.

For example, the Dales codex:

We could once again forget the incessant passage of time. Our people began the slow process of recovering the culture and traditions we had lost to slavery. But it was not to last. The Chantry first sent missionaries into the Dales, and then, when those were thrown out, templars. We were driven from Halamshiral, scattered.

Silfren wrote...

You DO realize that one of the Devs is on record as saying that elves who live apart from humans do tend to live noticeably longer than their counterparts?

And you do realize that no-where in that post did they say it was done because of any Quickening? There's many factors at play here. Magic, lifestyle, environment, etc.

Sorry, but in context I think that the Devs point was that there's likely something to the idea of the Quickening.  I don't think they would make statements like that just to give us a "Gotcha!  It was TOTALLY just a question of their environment and living conditions!" 

I also think that beyond the quickening, another very good reason for segregation is the indisputable fact that elf-human pairings result in 100% human offspring.  It's in the elves interest as a people to ensure that they don't risk intermingling with humans to the point that they could breed themselves out of existence.

My three Elven Wardens and Soris would like to have a word with you...

[Jedi Master of Orion]

In Exile wrote...

The Arlathan codex entry is very clear that the meaning of word can't be taken as anything other than a racial slur. Even if WoT wants to say that the term "shemlen" isn't mean to be derogative, there's no escaping from the fact that (a) it was historically used as a racial slur and ( it is bound up with pejorative meaning. 

I don't see "quickling" as automatically a racial slurr. Especially by elves who or believed to be immortal at the time.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 13 novembre 2013 - 07:21 .

[In Exile]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...
I don't see "quickling" as automatically a racial slurr. Especially by elves who or believed to be immortal at the time.

Helpfully DG clears this right up. From Dave's link, DG says:

DG: City elves have the same lifespans as humans. They call them shemlen because it's an ancient word...occasionally city elves will use some words that are elven without really understanding where they really come from. So it's a derogatory term ..

 

I'm not sure how to break down that this is a racist term more easily than that. It's a term that applies to a group of people with no distinction between members - it's a class term. It applies to them because of one feature - their apparent mortality. There is an implicit judgement in that observation mortality - worthlesness, brashness, aggression, etc. It's a valuation of worth as individuals and humans are found wanting. 

Modifié par In Exile, 13 novembre 2013 - 07:24 .

[TEWR]

Dave of Canada wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

As for the Gaider quote, do you happen to have a link to it?

Here ya go.

Ah. If we didn't have the Mary Kirby quote contradicting it and making their lore inconsistent (which isn't new to DA) I'd say that it does indeed imply the quickening has some sort of factual basis, if for no other reason then the fact that he distinguishes Zathrian as an "exceptional" case. An exception to the rule of "Live far away from humans and you'll live longer naturally!"

Which, I mean it is in part that they have a healthier style of living and don't face routine purges by the sword, but when Zathrian's not being included in the longevity of Elves in general but rather specifically as an exceptional case (which he is) then it does hint at something.

That said, I am like In Exile in that I find blood magic may have had something to do with it, since it's called the old ways by Merrill and reportedly everyone was a Mage back then.

But again, with the MK contradicting the DG, then the entire thing becomes really problematic.

[Silfren]

In Exile wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Again, I'm aware that another Dev made a contradictory statement.  It doesn't mean that the first one can be ruled out, however, until someone specifically goes out of their way to address the discrepancy.  

It undercuts the authority of the first post. That's it. We can cook up arguments all we like about which one is right, but my point is that we're just spinng our wheels with this appeal to authority.

I don't disagree with you, but again, the problem of Elves facing extinction if they interbreed with non-elves too much is a very real issue they face.  It's not something that can be totally dismissed as abhorrent fascist thinking.   

It absolutely can be dismissed as abhorent fascist thinking. First of all, there's no actual problem. In theory, if the absolutely majority elves decided to intermarry, then maybe the elves as a distinct magical quasi-genetic whatever would cease... but so what? 

If there was ever any value in whatever the elves are, physically or magically, it's the what the elves themselves attribute to that. The idea that being elven has any value beyond the individual elves is intrinsically abhorent. 

1) Elves wanting to stay out of human cities to reduce the chances of intermarriage does not automatically equate to forced marriages and forced births.  It's quite possible for the elves to simply want to stay out of non-elven lands without ever progressing into draconian laws amongst their own people.

2)The elves themselves might feel differently about the idea of fading out of racial existence...especially since among human lands, that would effectively be the end of their culture and language as well. 

3) We're not talking about real world fascist practices using racial superiority as an excuse to do horrific things to people.  The elves face literal extinction if they interbreed with other races on a large scale. 

Modifié par Silfren, 13 novembre 2013 - 07:30 .

[Jedi Master of Orion]

In Exile wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...
I don't see "quickling" as automatically a racial slurr. Especially by elves who or believed to be immortal at the time.

Helpfully DG clears this right up. From Dave's link, DG says:

DG: City elves have the same lifespans as humans. They call them shemlen because it's an ancient word...occasionally city elves will use some words that are elven without really understanding where they really come from. So it's a derogatory term ..

 

I'm not sure how to break down that this is a racist term more easily than that. It's a term that applies to a group of people with no distinction between members - it's a class term. It applies to them because of one feature - their apparent mortality. There is an implicit judgement in that observation mortality - worthlesness, brashness, aggression, etc. It's a valuation of worth as individuals and humans are found wanting. 

After looking at the full text of that quote, I think he's talking about how the city elves use the term, not its original meaning or context. He even says the city elves will use it without knowing what that is.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 13 novembre 2013 - 07:35 .

[Silfren]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

In Exile wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...
I don't see "quickling" as automatically a racial slurr. Especially by elves who or believed to be immortal at the time.

Helpfully DG clears this right up. From Dave's link, DG says:

DG: City elves have the same lifespans as humans. They call them shemlen because it's an ancient word...occasionally city elves will use some words that are elven without really understanding where they really come from. So it's a derogatory term ..

 

I'm not sure how to break down that this is a racist term more easily than that. It's a term that applies to a group of people with no distinction between members - it's a class term. It applies to them because of one feature - their apparent mortality. There is an implicit judgement in that observation mortality - worthlesness, brashness, aggression, etc. It's a valuation of worth as individuals and humans are found wanting. 

Looking at the full text of that quote I think he's talking about how the city elves use the term, not it's origional  meaning or context. He even says the city elves will use it without knowing what that is.

It would certainly make sense for it to be a racist term among the city elves even though it's really just the Dalish word for human, really.  The City Elves speak the same language as the humans in whatever city they live, 'shem' is just a word they've retained that has taken on a more disparaging connotation.

[Dave of Canada]

I'm going to do a first and resort to real world arguments, the very same arguments are used by real-world supremacist groups.

I'm viewed as a "traitor" to my "kind" simply by the virtue of being a half-breed with little care about where I'm from, my ancestor's culture or their language. I can't visit native reserves without being hated, yet this is behaviour is justified because of white-guilt and "we took their land so they deserve to be treated better".

There's nothing to save, any value of the culture was lost long ago and clinging onto it and hating everyone else is racist by itself and must be abolished. The fact that anyone who disagrees is viewed as a "traitor" infuriates me, I was viewed as racist myself when I told a bunch of native supremacists--who claim that all immigrants should leave the west and leave them to "fix" their culture--that they're fighting a war which isn't theirs.

They feel slighted over an injustice which hasn't occurred to them, they cling to beliefs which they've never followed and refuse to co-operate because they feel they're inherently superior to anyone who isn't them. This behaviour is done miraculously well by the Dalish--props to the writers--which is why I cannot in good conscious support elves.

What would be lost if elves crossbred and "died out"? People with pointy ears? If their culture is worth anything, it'll survive. The fact that their culture is anti-human, foreign to them as much as anyone else and spread through word-of-mouth not withstanding.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 13 novembre 2013 - 08:08 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Xilizhra wrote...

TK514 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
Hopefully my Inquisitor can reverse this trend that you claim to see.

I'm quite interested to hear how you intend to change the outcome of an elf breeding with a non-elf.

The same as the reason that outcome probably exists to begin with: magic

How cute.
Xil wants to go all Dr. Mourou/Frankenstein/insert crazy bio sceintist here

You remind me of someone:

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Well without getting into whether or not that's a fair assessment of all Native American culture (becuase I can't), it's definitely an unfair generalization to apply to the notion of all endangered cultures in general. Dalish cultures will survive only if the dalish themselves make an effort to preserve it, regardless of whether it's worth saving or not.

Dalish segregation isn't even entirely their own doing. They aren't very welcome in most human lands. One of the reasons they keep away from humans is that humans usually leave them along if they keep to themselves. Otherwise they often get attacked if they stay too near human settlements for too long. They seem to have a short time before they overstay their welcome when migrating near cities.

I also don't think it's fair to say their culture is inherently "anti-human," but I suspect that's another argument that would just go round in circles. You could just as easily say human culture is anti-elven. Why does that deserve to be preserved more? Human racism appears to have been more insitutionalized in practice in their nations than dalish racism in disorganized tribes, but I don't think either race should be defined by their worst aspects.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 13 novembre 2013 - 08:31 .

[billy the squid]

Silfren wrote...

In Exile wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Again, I'm aware that another Dev made a contradictory statement.  It doesn't mean that the first one can be ruled out, however, until someone specifically goes out of their way to address the discrepancy.  

It undercuts the authority of the first post. That's it. We can cook up arguments all we like about which one is right, but my point is that we're just spinng our wheels with this appeal to authority.

I don't disagree with you, but again, the problem of Elves facing extinction if they interbreed with non-elves too much is a very real issue they face.  It's not something that can be totally dismissed as abhorrent fascist thinking.   

It absolutely can be dismissed as abhorent fascist thinking. First of all, there's no actual problem. In theory, if the absolutely majority elves decided to intermarry, then maybe the elves as a distinct magical quasi-genetic whatever would cease... but so what? 

If there was ever any value in whatever the elves are, physically or magically, it's the what the elves themselves attribute to that. The idea that being elven has any value beyond the individual elves is intrinsically abhorent. 

1) Elves wanting to stay out of human cities to reduce the chances of intermarriage does not automatically equate to forced marriages and forced births.  It's quite possible for the elves to simply want to stay out of non-elven lands without ever progressing into draconian laws amongst their own people.

2)The elves themselves might feel differently about the idea of fading out of racial existence...especially since among human lands, that would effectively be the end of their culture and language as well. 

3) We're not talking about real world fascist practices using racial superiority as an excuse to do horrific things to people.  The elves face literal extinction if they interbreed with other races on a large scale. 

And? They face natural selection. Their species will be bred out as they are the weaker species, it's a perfectly natural process of Darwinism. Their offspring will be stronger for it and their genetic traits will be passed on in human offspring. It's a perfectly equitable solution.

[iOnlySignIn]

billy the squid wrote...

And? They face natural selection. Their species will be bred out as they are the weaker species, it's a perfectly natural process of Darwinism. Their offspring will be stronger for it and their genetic traits will be passed on in human offspring. It's a perfectly equitable solution.

Finally! Some who actually read the biology textbooks when in high school.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Considering that in the Second Blight the Dalish left Thedas to rot and later sacked a human city then humans are right to distrust the Elves too and frankly  I don't blame humanity for kicking their asses after that.

Well I'm not defending the Dales leaving the people of Montismmard to die but neither of those two things are unique in the history of Thedas. They hardly deserve to be the single enduring legacy of the elves. Since the Fall of the Dales, humans nations have done the same and more often and recently. Yet they aren't the defining characteristics of humanity.

Who else have refused to help during a Blight than Elves?

[In Exile]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...
I also don't think it's fair to say their culture is inherently "anti-human," but I suspect that's another argument that would just go round in circles. You could just as easily say human culture is anti-elven. Why does that deserve to be preserved more? Human racism appears to have been more insitutionalized in practice in their nations than dalish racism in disorganized tribes, but I don't think either race should be defined by their worst aspects.

Human culture is anti-elven. It's not as in-your-face about it in terms of beliefs because humans are the dominant cultural group, but you don't have to go farther than an alienage to see what from the POV of the humans in Thedas, elves are second class. 

Human culture by no means deserves to be preserved more, or at all. 

Of course, there's no monolithic "human" culture because Ferelden is not Orlais. But that's just like how the Dalish aren't all elves (just Dalish elves). 

My point is just that - on the point about interbreeding - that it's the choice of every individual elf who they want to be with. If their choices, in aggregate, mean that something physical/magical about being elven is lost, then that's their choice to make. Just like it's the choice of religious adherents to become secular, even if the religion ceases to be practiced. 

[In Exile]

Silfren wrote...
1) Elves wanting to stay out of human cities to reduce the chances of intermarriage does not automatically equate to forced marriages and forced births.  It's quite possible for the elves to simply want to stay out of non-elven lands without ever progressing into draconian laws amongst their own people.

The forced birth and forced marriage derives from the same moral obligation that you posit justifies the segregation in the first place: the preservation of a "race". 

Think about the point you're making.Interbreeding is only a threat if elves actually want to interbreed. Segregation is only a solution if it stops elves from doing that - if it forces them not to choose to pair up with humans when they would. As I discuss below, if the elves don't want to intermarry then there's no problem. 

2)The elves themselves might feel differently about the idea of fading out of racial existence...especially since among human lands, that would effectively be the end of their culture and language as well.  

Then your point is irrelevant, because elves won't choose to interbreed in ways that would ever jeorpadize what being elven currently means - in the physical/magical sense. 

Either elves feel differently - in which case there is no problem at all - or elves want to interbeed at levels that actually threaten something, in which case it's their choice and no problem at all.

3) We're not talking about real world fascist practices using racial superiority as an excuse to do horrific things to people.  The elves face literal extinction if they interbreed with other races on a large scale.   

That's what the real world racists believe! Go ahead and try and convince one of them that being whatever nationality they think "white" really means isn't a race ,and that interbreed with whatever nationality these nutbags think "isn't white" won't mean the "extiction" of "white" people. 

Look, I get that in Thedas, elves are actually distinct from humans in important ways that would justify us saying they're a different "race" in a way we could never say for actual humans. But the loons IRL believe that about the clearly fake categories of "race". 

That's where the equivalence is.

[Allan Schumacher]

iOnlySignIn wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

And? They face natural selection. Their species will be bred out as they are the weaker species, it's a perfectly natural process of Darwinism. Their offspring will be stronger for it and their genetic traits will be passed on in human offspring. It's a perfectly equitable solution.

Finally! Some who actually read the biology textbooks when in high school.

Closing this thread because even I felt inclined to respond to this can of worms.

[In Exile]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...
After looking at the full text of that quote, I think he's talking about how the city elves use the term, not its original meaning or context. He even says the city elves will use it without knowing what that is.

He clearly says that "shem" is just a short form. Based on the sentence structure, it's pretty clear that the "derogative" part refers back to the full word "shemlen".