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[Bardox9]

There are threads for supporting the Mages and threads supporting the Templars, but such threads mix the rational with the irrational on the two sides of this conflict. I am creating this thread for those who prefer logical reasoning over ideological purity.

The Circle of Magi is as much as prison as it is a sanctuary. Mages can live and study their art in peace, but at the expense of constantly being watched by the ever vigilant Templars who watch for signs of corruption. The Templars serve as both prison guard and body guard for the mages within the circle. They protect the mages as much as they protect others from the mages.

All mages attract Demons. The Circle is where they can learn to recognize and resist demonic influence. Should the Mages fail in this, the Templars are there to neutralize the threat before it can threaten the rest of Thedas. The First Enchanter and Knight Commander are meant to work together to maintain a harmony between Mage and Templar. When they do not work together, tensions rise and conflicts begin. The Circle in Ferelden is an example of how it is suppose to work. The Circle in Kirkwall is an example of a Circle that does not work.

A single out of control mage can be a greater threat than an entire company of seasoned soldiers. A fact that both Templar and Mage acknowledge. Simply being a mage however does not make someone evil, but the potential for catastrophe is too great. A warrior or rogue could kill a dozen or a hundred innocents in a fit of rage, but a corrupt mage could flatten a city, curse an entire race of people, or shred the veil unleashing horrors on the world.

For the mage supporter, freedom is a noble ideal but Thedas is not an ideal world. Loghain, Meredith, Orsino, and Anders were all driven by noble ideals and all lead to disaster. The road to hell is paved with good intentions.  Do not fool yourself into believing that mages having complete autonomy will make everything better.

For the Templar supporters, Mages are a fact of life in Thedas. Even if you force tranquility on all of them or kill them outright, dozens or perhaps even a hundred more will be born tomorrow. Simply being a mage does not disquailfy them as people. A mage deserves so less respect than any farmer or noble. You can't condemn them for simply being different.

IMO, there is but one way forward. The Circle is that way. It is not ideal, it is not even fair, but it is the best option available. Atleast until a better option, that does not depend on blind optimism, is found. What say you?

[Xilizhra]

There are threads for supporting the Mages and threads supporting the Templars, but such threads mix the rational with the irrational on the two sides of this conflict. I am creating this thread for those who prefer logical reasoning over ideological purity.

Specifically, logical reasoning that happens to agree with your interpretation of it. As we will see momentarily.

IMO, there is but one way forward. The Circle is that way. It is not ideal, it is not even fair, but it is the best option available. Atleast until a better option, that does not depend on blind optimism, is found. What say you?

Let the mages run it and the templars guarding the Circles themselves, abolish Tranquility and Annulment, and we might be able to start something.

[Vit246]

The Circle needs reform. Sweeping reforms.

[Icy Magebane]

Segregation fosters resentment. Mages must be allowed to integrate into the population or they will continue to be demonized, and the cycle of resentment and rebellion starts anew. If the basic templar abilities were commonly understood and practiced by town guards, we wouldn't need to keep them isolated. Add in a few elite guards who specialize in this training, a few basic requirements for mages (compulsory training, phylacteries, etc), and society can move past this conflict entirely.

[Reznore57]

I support the Circles but I think they should have clearer goals.
Educating and sheltering mages is great , but all circles should have a team of mages working on mages/ magical problems.
Templars drinking lyrium is a disaster in the long run.
Tranquility is bordeline barbaric ...
The taint is a magical problem at its core.
Same with the fade and demons.etc

As long as the Chantry fears magic and doesn't want to look at the big picture...well you have almost 1000 years with no new ways to contain and control magical problems.
Tevinter is a bit more cool with magic , but they benefits so much from blood magic , mind control etc...If they'd find something they would hide it.

I mean keeping people in a tower and throwing away the key is never a good way to deal with troubles.It's not really a surprise things went Boom.

[Bardox9]

Xilizhra wrote...

There are threads for supporting the Mages and threads supporting the Templars, but such threads mix the rational with the irrational on the two sides of this conflict. I am creating this thread for those who prefer logical reasoning over ideological purity.

Specifically, logical reasoning that happens to agree with your interpretation of it. As we will see momentarily.

IMO, there is but one way forward. The Circle is that way. It is not ideal, it is not even fair, but it is the best option available. Atleast until a better option, that does not depend on blind optimism, is found. What say you?

Let the mages run it and the templars guarding the Circles themselves, abolish Tranquility and Annulment, and we might be able to start something.

It may surprise you, but I do agree that the Mages sould run the Circle and Templars should only act as guards and nothing more. I also agree that the Rite of Annulment should be abolished, but the Rite of Tranquility has it's merits.

The RoT is supposed to only be used on those who are too weak willed to resist demons or are unwilling to under go the Harrowing. Chantry law forbids the use of the RoT without significant provocation from the Knight Commander and the agreement of the Circle's First Enchanter. An Apprentice can also volunteer for the Rite. It is no kindness, but the Rite has it's place. Merediths use of it was criminal.

[SgtSteel91]

I think the Circles need to be advertised differently. If the Circles were treated not as a prison Mages were forced into for the rest of their lives but as a place of learning where Mages have the privilege of attending to master their gift and use it when it is needed then we would have less angry Mages (except for the radicals like Anders who want total Mage freedom).

Let mages have contact with their families. Either by letters or letting the families enter the Circle to spend time with the Mage. Maybe let Mages leave to spend a week or something with their family with a Templar chaperon but only if that Mage has their **** together.

Make Tranquility a reactive punishment like life in prison or the death penalty after a person commits a terrible crime in real life. And make the Right of Annulment only possible after, say, **** hits the fan and you have a demon outbreak or something equally desperate. Both the highest ranking Chanty/Templar and Mage official have to agree on it too.

Modifié par SgtSteel91, 13 novembre 2013 - 05:14 .

[Xilizhra]

The RoT is supposed to only be used on those who are too weak willed to resist demons or are unwilling to under go the Harrowing. Chantry law forbids the use of the RoT without significant provocation from the Knight Commander and the agreement of the Circle's First Enchanter. An Apprentice can also volunteer for the Rite. It is no kindness, but the Rite has it's place. Merediths use of it was criminal.

Voluntary might be allowed. Involuntary, no.

I also propose that the ban on blood magic be lifted, at least in part. It should be studied at the very least, by those who are sufficiently trustworthy.

[dragonflight288]

SgtSteel91 wrote...

I think the Circles need to be advertised differently. If the Circles were treated not as a prison Mages were forced into for the rest of their lives but as a place of learning where Mages have the privilege of attending to master their gift and use it when it is needed then we would have less angry Mages (except for the radicals like Anders who want total Mage freedom).

Let mages have contact with their families. Either by letters or letting the families enter the Circle to spend time with the Mage. Maybe let Mages leave to spend a week or something with a Templar chaperon but only if that Mage has their **** together.

Make Tranquility a reactive punishment like life in prison or the death penalty after a person commits a terrible crime in real life. And make the Right of Annulment only possible after, say, **** hits the fan and you have a demon outbreak. Both the highest ranking Chanty/Templar and Mage official have to agree on it too.

Or on confirmed blood mages who control the minds of others. If they show a willingness to take the free will of thought and action away from others they deserve the same.

[AresKeith]

Good myn

I support the Circle too

[Hellion Rex]

Xilizhra wrote...

The RoT is supposed to only be used on those who are too weak willed to resist demons or are unwilling to under go the Harrowing. Chantry law forbids the use of the RoT without significant provocation from the Knight Commander and the agreement of the Circle's First Enchanter. An Apprentice can also volunteer for the Rite. It is no kindness, but the Rite has it's place. Merediths use of it was criminal.

Voluntary might be allowed. Involuntary, no.

I also propose that the ban on blood magic be lifted, at least in part. It should be studied at the very least, by those who are sufficiently trustworthy.

But who gets to decide what "trustworthy" is? The Chantry or the mages?

[SgtSteel91]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Or on confirmed blood mages who control the minds of others. If they show a willingness to take the free will of thought and action away from others they deserve the same.

I wonder if you can just ban the use of Blood Magic when used to control others, necromancy, or demon summoning but using your own blood to power spells or make bad guys hemorrhage blood (it's about as terrible as burining to death) is fair game. Other than those aspects, I have not problem with Blood Magic.

But I hear aboud BSN that using Blood Magic makes it more likely to be possesed by demons. Is that comfimed anywhere? Because if so that may be another aspect that makes me iffy on the use of Blood Magic.

Modifié par SgtSteel91, 13 novembre 2013 - 05:22 .

[Xilizhra]

eluvianix wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

The RoT is supposed to only be used on those who are too weak willed to resist demons or are unwilling to under go the Harrowing. Chantry law forbids the use of the RoT without significant provocation from the Knight Commander and the agreement of the Circle's First Enchanter. An Apprentice can also volunteer for the Rite. It is no kindness, but the Rite has it's place. Merediths use of it was criminal.

Voluntary might be allowed. Involuntary, no.

I also propose that the ban on blood magic be lifted, at least in part. It should be studied at the very least, by those who are sufficiently trustworthy.

But who gets to decide what "trustworthy" is? The Chantry or the mages?

For the interests of negotiation, I'll initially say the mages but let myself be talked into having both the mages and Chantry agree on something.

[Bardox9]

Vit246 wrote...

The Circle needs reform. Sweeping reforms.

There is certainly room for improvement. I for one think that upon completion of the Harrowing the mage should be given the option to move out of the Circle. Live in a town or city of their choosing, but would still need to check in with the local Chantry or Templar Garrison. Mage children however should still have to be taken to the circle until they have completed their training, mastered their powers, and completed their Harrowing.

There is always room for improvement.

[SgtSteel91]

Oh, why don't Mages know what exactly the Harrowing is until the last minute, exactly? Tell them straight up, "you're going into the Fade to face demons and if you fail the Templars will kill you. So make sure you're prepared for it." That will give the Mages a hell of a motivation to steel themselves against demon possession.

[Icy Magebane]

SgtSteel91 wrote...

Oh, why don't Mages know what exactly the Harrowing is until the last minute, exactly? Tell them straight up, "you're going into the Fade to face demons and if you fail the Templars will kill you. So make sure you're prepared for it." That will give the Mages a hell of a motivation to steel themselves against demon possession.

Maybe because it's not as difficult to resist as the Chantry would have you believe?  After all, it's not in their best interest if the majority of mages pass the Harrowing.  Then the number of tranquil making enchantments faces a steep decline.  No, it's better to toss them in unprepared and see what happens.

[Bardox9]

Xilizhra wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

The RoT is supposed to only be used on those who are too weak willed to resist demons or are unwilling to under go the Harrowing. Chantry law forbids the use of the RoT without significant provocation from the Knight Commander and the agreement of the Circle's First Enchanter. An Apprentice can also volunteer for the Rite. It is no kindness, but the Rite has it's place. Merediths use of it was criminal.

Voluntary might be allowed. Involuntary, no.

I also propose that the ban on blood magic be lifted, at least in part. It should be studied at the very least, by those who are sufficiently trustworthy.

But who gets to decide what "trustworthy" is? The Chantry or the mages?

For the interests of negotiation, I'll initially say the mages but let myself be talked into having both the mages and Chantry agree on something.

Blood magic should be studied, but within reason. When you start sucking the blood out of someone else for you spell or consulting with a "spirit" for advise, you've gone too far. I would say that the First Enchanter and Kinght Commander would have to agree to those who would be allowed to study it though.

Some consider blood magic to be a seperate school of magic, but as far as I can tell it simply enhances the spells they are used for. It allows a mage to use blood instead of Lyrium to fuel a spell or amplify a mages talents.

[Hellion Rex]

Icy Magebane wrote...

SgtSteel91 wrote...

Oh, why don't Mages know what exactly the Harrowing is until the last minute, exactly? Tell them straight up, "you're going into the Fade to face demons and if you fail the Templars will kill you. So make sure you're prepared for it." That will give the Mages a hell of a motivation to steel themselves against demon possession.

Maybe because it's not as difficult to resist as the Chantry would have you believe?  After all, it's not in their best interest if the majority of mages pass the Harrowing.  Then the number of tranquil making enchantments faces a steep decline.  No, it's better to toss them in unprepared and see what happens.

In some respect, I can see why it might not be a good idea to know that its coming. In a real life situation, you might not always expect running into a demon. So the element of surprise in a Harrowing can be beneficial in that respect.

[SgtSteel91]

Bardox9 wrote...
Some consider blood magic to be a seperate school of magic, but as far as I can tell it simply enhances the spells they are used for. It allows a mage to use blood instead of Lyrium to fuel a spell or amplify a mages talents.

And also making you're enemie's blood hemorrhage and/or boil, which is flippin' metal to me .

[Usergnome]

Icy Magebane wrote...

Segregation fosters resentment. Mages must be allowed to integrate into the population or they will continue to be demonized, and the cycle of resentment and rebellion starts anew. If the basic templar abilities were commonly understood and practiced by town guards, we wouldn't need to keep them isolated. Add in a few elite guards who specialize in this training, a few basic requirements for mages (compulsory training, phylacteries, etc), and society can move past this conflict entirely.

Until you know, one bad mage loses control and massacres his village. And since the town guards are just villagers in uniform basically, they'll run or die against an abomination. Not to mention the amount of Lyrium required to create so many Templars (strong enough to deal with Abominations) would be impossible.

After one village is massacred, distrust and fear returns until eventually villagers attack the mages in their town, which creates even more desperate mages turning to blood magic / abominations.

I would suggest a Circle that feels more like a home, and less like a prison. Templars should be seen less as wardens, and more as guardians. Mages with perfect behaviour and strong control would even be allowed to "go on vacation" and live where they want for a time, and then return to the tower, until their next vacation.

This would give them more freedom, and even when they are stuck in their circle its not bad; cruel Templars would be "fired" and with mages leaving the tower or serving as a town healer, mage relationships with the common folk would also improve.

But without a doubt, mages need to be controlled because demons will ALWAYS be a threat, and there will always be bad eggs which means vigilant Templars will always be needed. Its only when good mages are treated cruelly by people/Templars that they go bad.

Modifié par Usergnome, 13 novembre 2013 - 05:44 .

[dragonflight288]

I have an idea on something that would replace the Harrowing. Actually only got the idea yesterday while playing Kingdoms of Amalur: Reckoning.

Yesterday, I joined the mage faction called the Scholia Arcana, and I recognize they have completely different rules about magic and don't have the risk of possession, but every one of their initiates, every one, has to pass a test similar to the Harrowing and it can be fatal, if you go into it unprepared.

Basically the premise is this, you train in the Scholia Arcana for years before you are considered ready, and you are put through an initiation ritual, where the magic forces you to face an embodiment of your own potential. (It's really hilarious how the protagonist in the game goes through quite a few caves, and the Savant in charge comments on how many caves the Fateless goes through)

It changes for each and every initiate, so you cannot say exactly what will happen or what you will face as everyone has different talents and skills. You are also warned about it beforehand that it may be lethal, but you cannot advance beyond initiate unless you pass this test. If you don't feel ready for it, you can continue training.

I think if in Dragon Age, a magical test could be devised to have mages face their own strengths and weaknesses to overcome instead of facing a demon, it would work much better. Besides, events in the game have proven that the Harrowing is absolutely worthless as a way to weed out which mages will or will not resist possession.

[Icy Magebane]

eluvianix wrote...

Icy Magebane wrote...

SgtSteel91 wrote...

Oh, why don't Mages know what exactly the Harrowing is until the last minute, exactly? Tell them straight up, "you're going into the Fade to face demons and if you fail the Templars will kill you. So make sure you're prepared for it." That will give the Mages a hell of a motivation to steel themselves against demon possession.

Maybe because it's not as difficult to resist as the Chantry would have you believe?  After all, it's not in their best interest if the majority of mages pass the Harrowing.  Then the number of tranquil making enchantments faces a steep decline.  No, it's better to toss them in unprepared and see what happens.

In some respect, I can see why it might not be a good idea to know that its coming. In a real life situation, you might not always expect running into a demon. So the element of surprise in a Harrowing can be beneficial in that respect.

The Chantry teaches that mages are almost always at risk.  If the purpose of Circles is to minimize the threat posed by abominations, how is it beneficial to withhold knowledge of the Harrowing?  Wouldn't preparing them in advance be more useful?  The way it works now, a large percentage are guaranteed to either fail or will be too frightened to even attempt it.

[Hellion Rex]

dragonflight288 wrote...

I have an idea on something that would replace the Harrowing. Actually only got the idea yesterday while playing Kingdoms of Amalur: Reckoning.

Yesterday, I joined the mage faction called the Scholia Arcana, and I recognize they have completely different rules about magic and don't have the risk of possession, but every one of their initiates, every one, has to pass a test similar to the Harrowing and it can be fatal, if you go into it unprepared.

Basically the premise is this, you train in the Scholia Arcana for years before you are considered ready, and you are put through an initiation ritual, where the magic forces you to face an embodiment of your own potential. (It's really hilarious how the protagonist in the game goes through quite a few caves, and the Savant in charge comments on how many caves the Fateless goes through)

It changes for each and every initiate, so you cannot say exactly what will happen or what you will face as everyone has different talents and skills. You are also warned about it beforehand that it may be lethal, but you cannot advance beyond initiate unless you pass this test. If you don't feel ready for it, you can continue training.

I think if in Dragon Age, a magical test could be devised to have mages face their own strengths and weaknesses to overcome instead of facing a demon, it would work much better. Besides, events in the game have proven that the Harrowing is absolutely worthless as a way to weed out which mages will or will not resist possession.

That is a feasible idea. Demons prey on human emotions, particularly those most base within us. Having a mage face all that they are, "facing the mirror", might be a more effective teaching tool than just throwing them at a demon.

[Usergnome]

dragonflight288 wrote...

I have an idea on something that would replace the Harrowing. Actually only got the idea yesterday while playing Kingdoms of Amalur: Reckoning.

Yesterday, I joined the mage faction called the Scholia Arcana, and I recognize they have completely different rules about magic and don't have the risk of possession, but every one of their initiates, every one, has to pass a test similar to the Harrowing and it can be fatal, if you go into it unprepared.

Basically the premise is this, you train in the Scholia Arcana for years before you are considered ready, and you are put through an initiation ritual, where the magic forces you to face an embodiment of your own potential. (It's really hilarious how the protagonist in the game goes through quite a few caves, and the Savant in charge comments on how many caves the Fateless goes through)

It changes for each and every initiate, so you cannot say exactly what will happen or what you will face as everyone has different talents and skills. You are also warned about it beforehand that it may be lethal, but you cannot advance beyond initiate unless you pass this test. If you don't feel ready for it, you can continue training.

I think if in Dragon Age, a magical test could be devised to have mages face their own strengths and weaknesses to overcome instead of facing a demon, it would work much better. Besides, events in the game have proven that the Harrowing is absolutely worthless as a way to weed out which mages will or will not resist possession.

That doesn't seem like a good idea. The threats mages pose are becoming abominations and abusing their power (blood magic) 

Not to mention, its not like mages in DA can just wait until they're ready to take the test. Demons won't wait and they'll prey on the weak mages and steal their body. I've played through that quest so I know what you mean... But its just different. The fact that demons are the biggest threat means that initiates can't wait and will need to be strong enough OR face tranquility.

[Icy Magebane]

As much as I liked Kingdoms of Amalur, I'm going to have to agree that their rituals can't apply to Dragon Age. The risks involved in magic in the DA universe are just too great to ignore or try to circumvent...