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[General TSAR]

The main purpose of the Circle is Quarantine.

[Medhia Nox]

@eluvianix: I'm not against family visitation as I said.

I'd prefer entire towns/cities to spark up around Circles where the families of mages live.

[EmperorSahlertz]

eluvianix wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Not two pages ago, she argued that she wanted her ideas of how the game should go, to be the ONLY way the game should go. That is not rational. That is moronic.

Like you Templar supporters do not do the same?

I have yet to see any of us, say that in DA:I we should only be able to support the Templars. That is one of the most moronic things you could say. Why on earth would i want to limit the game in such a way?

[MisterJB]

eluvianix wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Not two pages ago, she argued that she wanted her ideas of how the game should go, to be the ONLY way the game should go. That is not rational. That is moronic.

Like you Templar supporters do not do the same?

No, we don't. We may say something like "We want to side with the Templars" but you will have a hard time finding an instance where we claimed that siding with the mages should be impossible.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Xilizhra wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Not two pages ago, she argued that she wanted her ideas of how the game should go, to be the ONLY way the game should go. That is not rational. That is moronic.

How strange, I rather thought that we all wanted our ideas for the game to be implemented.

I have yet to see anyone be as astronomically selfish as to wish for his own idea of a story development to take palce as the only option, at the cost of a major part of the fandom and their wishes. What MOST people (and by most i mean everyone but you) do, is that we state we wish to be able to support, for instance, the Templars. But not at the cost of thus not being able to support the mages. That would be to place a limitation on the game. And it would basically be a very ****** poor piece of garbage game.

[General TSAR]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@eluvianix: I'm not against family visitation as I said.

I'd prefer entire towns/cities to spark up around Circles where the families of mages live.

Fine, but they better have a garrison of battle-hardened Templars or Chantry Warriors in case the Rite is used.

[Br3admax]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@eluvianix: I'm not against family visitation as I said.

I'd prefer entire towns/cities to spark up around Circles where the families of mages live.

Good luck to the unlucky sole that is born without magical powers. 

[Medhia Nox]

@eluvianix: Not being a supporter for either side - I hope that the game totally breaks canon and allows the absolute options for every choice.

- Pro-Mages stick it to the powers that be.
- Pro-Templars put down the mages
- Pro-Inquisition (I'm going to put this for the middle ground) close the portals and "deal" with fanatics and fascists.

Then - Bioware just chooses the canon they want. (which would be the middle ground)

I don't want anyone not to get their preferred ending.

---

However, I guarantee you - that Bioware is likely NEVER going to choose the mages or the templars.

I am confident neither side will get the extremes of their wishes.

[HiroVoid]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@eluvianix: Not being a supporter for either side - I hope that the game totally breaks canon and allows the absolute options for every choice.

- Pro-Mages stick it to the powers that be.
- Pro-Templars put down the mages
- Pro-Inquisition (I'm going to put this for the middle ground) close the portals and "deal" with fanatics and fascists.

Then - Bioware just chooses the canon they want. (which would be the middle ground)

I don't want anyone not to get their preferred ending.

---

However, I guarantee you - that Bioware is likely NEVER going to choose the mages or the templars.

I am confident neither side will get the extremes of their wishes.

I pretty much agree with this whole post.  In fact, I would go on and say I expect we'll be able to do barely anything large in the mage-templar conflict and that it's likely the conflict will simply continue to go on into future DA games.  Possibly, mages will find national protection in return for the use of their powers during war times and conquering.

[GreyLycanTrope]

I support an reformed/improved Circle, it's methods were clearly ineffective the first time around.

[Xilizhra]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Not two pages ago, she argued that she wanted her ideas of how the game should go, to be the ONLY way the game should go. That is not rational. That is moronic.

How strange, I rather thought that we all wanted our ideas for the game to be implemented.

I have yet to see anyone be as astronomically selfish as to wish for his own idea of a story development to take palce as the only option, at the cost of a major part of the fandom and their wishes. What MOST people (and by most i mean everyone but you) do, is that we state we wish to be able to support, for instance, the Templars. But not at the cost of thus not being able to support the mages. That would be to place a limitation on the game. And it would basically be a very ****** poor piece of garbage game.

If the save imports were more reliable and resources were sprawling enough that wholly different universes could be seen in the next game from making a decision in DAI, I'd be fine with that. But that's not the case, so clearly we cannot dictate the outcome of the mage/templar war in a way that'll carry a great deal of lasting meaning. With that being said, combined with the fact that the templars forcing the mages back into the Circle would make for an utterly meaningless narrative in DA2, plus the fact that they're less palatable to a plurality of players than the mages, it cannot be a good idea for the templars to be able to win in DAI, and I'm quite sure that they won't.

Now, this does not translate into the mages automatically winning as I desire to. In truth, I agree with Ieldra in that something will happen in this game to wholly change everyone's perspective on the universe and utterly change the nature of the conflict as it currently stands. However, I strongly believe that the templars should not have a return-to-status-quo victory, and am fairly confident that they will not.

[Bardox9]

Technically speaking, under the pre-DA2 system, the Templar Order has never been governed by the chantry. They believe in the chantry's teachings and do (or should I say did) obey the grand clerics as any good Andrastian would, but they were never actually controlled by the Chantry. The Chantry could issue any policy they wanted, but it has always been (as I understand it anyway, could be wrong) the Knight Commanders that decided if they are going to follow those policies or ignore them.

[Hellion Rex]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@eluvianix: Not being a supporter for either side - I hope that the game totally breaks canon and allows the absolute options for every choice.

- Pro-Mages stick it to the powers that be.
- Pro-Templars put down the mages
- Pro-Inquisition (I'm going to put this for the middle ground) close the portals and "deal" with fanatics and fascists.

Then - Bioware just chooses the canon they want. (which would be the middle ground)

I don't want anyone not to get their preferred ending.

---

However, I guarantee you - that Bioware is likely NEVER going to choose the mages or the templars.

I am confident neither side will get the extremes of their wishes.

To be honest, I think I will have my Inquisitor be a Pro-Inquisition mage. Hopefully, we can use our power to sort out this mess with respect to both sides. Perhaps we can be the neutral ground.

[HiroVoid]

The Circle system itself lasted around 8 centuries which is a pretty long time to endure. I doubt we'll see if any other system lasts the same amount of time.

[Medhia Nox]

I personally would like to see roving bands of abominations searching for mages to convert - while mage "society" collapses wholesale - and Templars are the last bullwark to protect them.

Uldred's entire storyline seems to be the ill fated future of mages - those abominations stated VERY clearly that they were "the next step in mage evolution".

And I'd like to see the beings of the Fade attempt to force that on the mages of Thedas.

[Lord Raijin]

Icy Magebane wrote...

@Lord Raijin - So basically, you are saying that you like the Circle system as it is. I am not trying to argue against Tranquility and the laws governing it as they currently exist. When you mentioned "criminals," I assumed you meant "maleficar," mages who commit crimes, like murder, theft, etc. If we aren't talking about a new system, then I have nothing to add. The law is the law, and until the laws are changed, people need to obey them.

What I am questioning is the validity of the Rite of Tranquility as the sole method of punishment for mages. Voluntary tranquility I have no problem with, but even under the current system, forced tranquility for committing crimes seems barbaric. If this isn't simply a way to get free labor, and create humans that can work with lyrium (bypassing the need to trade with dwarves), then I don't see any reason why you can't just make it optional (death being the other option).

And I don't care who said what, forcing people to work for you is slavery. If you aren't even given an option to die instead, and some third party thinks they can put your mind to sleep and your body to use, that's slavery.

I've never once said that I supported the current Circle System. I support the philosophical purpose of it but never the management and the Chantry's involvements. I want the Circle to be autonomous. Giving mages the responsibility of autonomy will not rise up another imperium, and unfortunately that is what the Chantry fears and thus refuse to allow the mages full run of the Circle.

Once you committed a crime forcing the Rite on the criminals is not barbaric thing to do at all. Whether you like it or not mages possesses a dangerous weapon; magic. If mages are proven to not be responsible, and would rather use their Makers given gift for evil and destruction then they forfeited their right to have this power, and therefor the  R.o.T should be granted to eradicate the dangers, and keep the peace.

The tranquils are not forced to provide free labor to the Circle. Since they're no longer mages they have far more rights than the mages of the Circle. Tranquils can leave the Circle at any given point, but because the Circle is all they know many actually prefer to stay. Financially supporting the circle with runecrafting and enchanting things is not an act of slavery. It's called contributing to the community by working. In return for their labor the tranquils have a shelter, food and clothes.

Oh and David Gaider is the lead writer for the Dragon age series so yea... you should care what he says about what goes on in the DA world. He is the lore master. If he says that the tranquils are not slaves then they're not slaves. It's that simple.

[Xilizhra]

Medhia Nox wrote...

I personally would like to see roving bands of abominations searching for mages to convert - while mage "society" collapses wholesale - and Templars are the last bullwark to protect them.

Uldred's entire storyline seems to be the ill fated future of mages - those abominations stated VERY clearly that they were "the next step in mage evolution".

And I'd like to see the beings of the Fade attempt to force that on the mages of Thedas.

And I would like a plot such as this, if it exists, to be wholly and forever stopped by the mages.

[HiroVoid]

Bardox9 wrote...

Technically speaking, under the pre-DA2 system, the Templar Order has never been governed by the chantry. They believe in the chantry's teachings and do (or should I say did) obey the grand clerics as any good Andrastian would, but they were never actually controlled by the Chantry. The Chantry could issue any policy they wanted, but it has always been (as I understand it anyway, could be wrong) the Knight Commanders that decided if they are going to follow those policies or ignore them.

Hilariously, another point Alistair kind of got wrong.  'The Chantry controls the templars!  They couldn't just leave or take over!' *One game later, the templars leave the chantry*

[Hellion Rex]

Medhia Nox wrote...

I personally would like to see roving bands of abominations searching for mages to convert - while mage "society" collapses wholesale - and Templars are the last bullwark to protect them.

Uldred's entire storyline seems to be the ill fated future of mages - those abominations stated VERY clearly that they were "the next step in mage evolution".

And I'd like to see the beings of the Fade attempt to force that on the mages of Thedas.

Perhaps the bands of abominations will be the contrast to the Red Templars. And that theme of evolution is perhaps a worthy one to explore for mages..if only so that mages can prove that they are above the need of such methods to grow and evolve.

Modifié par eluvianix, 13 novembre 2013 - 08:33 .

[MisterJB]

How about something similar to the shinobi villages in the Naruto anime?

I'll explain, mages would extablish their own villages that would fall under the authority of the king of the nation they reside in but would be independent from nobles. The mages would understand that they would be forbidden from becoming involved in industry; which would adress the possiblity of mages becoming wealthy enough to do anything they wish; and that their sole duty would be acting as both mercenary units as well as the standing armies of the larger countries they reside in.

These villages would answer to independant contracts; and they would be accompanied by Templars; who would be mantained by either the kings or the Chantry; just in case; and they would be financed by their kings; which means that, if a village gets unruly, the kings can, quite simply, starve them out by ceasing the funds but also means that the kings have an interest in keeping them functional should a war break out; and, in the eventuality of a war, it would be the mages who would have the duty to fight to defend the nation and, again, they would be accompanied by the Templars.
It would be forbidden for mages and non-mages to live amongst each other. But within the villages, the mages would be free to extablish what laws and rule they wish so long as they obey the most fundamental ones that apply to all villages such as, for example, the prohibition of any form of industry.

Of course, I can already see several problems with this system; such as the mages having the incentive to cause conflict in order for them to maintain their importance; but it might be a start.

Modifié par MisterJB, 13 novembre 2013 - 09:05 .

[Medhia Nox]

@Icy Magebane: the Rite of Tranquility is not the sole form of punishment. What we see in DA2 are gross abuses of the Rite.

Anders escapes the Ferelden Circle... eight times? And he's not Tranquilized the first seven.

The Rite is reserved for mages that are too weak willed (not weak in magical power) to resist demons OR for mages too terrified of their experiences as a mage and request it.

And the Codex - the Codex that informs us about the world - states that plenty of mages choose the Rite of their own accord.

[Hellion Rex]

MisterJB wrote...

How about something similar to the shinobi villages in the Naruto anime?

I'll explain, mages would extablish their own villages that would fall under the authority of the king of the nation they reside in but would be independent from nobles. The mages would understand that they would be forbidden from becoming involved in industry; which would adress the possiblity of mages becoming wealthy enough to do anything they wish; and that their sole duty would be acting as both mercenary units as well as the standing armies of the larger countries they reside in.

These villages would answer to independant contracts; and they would be accompanied by Templars; who would be mantained by either the kings or the Chantry; just in case; and they would be financed by their kings; which means that, if a village gets unruly, the kings can, quite simply, starve them out by ceasing the funds but also means that the kings have an interest in keeping them functional should a war break out; and, in the eventuality of a war, it would be the mages who would have the duty to fight to defend the nation and, again, they would be accompanied by the Templars.
It would be forbidden for mages and non-mages to live amongst each other.

Of course, I can already see several problems with this system; such as the mages having the incentive to cause conflict in order for them to maintain their importance; but it might be a start.

The idea is very sound. Although I feel like we might need a larger Templar Order to accomodate such villages. But with the Veil tears looming, people might rise to call of duty.

Modifié par eluvianix, 13 novembre 2013 - 08:36 .

[Xilizhra]

eluvianix wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

How about something similar to the shinobi villages in the Naruto anime?

I'll explain, mages would extablish their own villages that would fall under the authority of the king of the nation they reside in but would be independent from nobles. The mages would understand that they would be forbidden from becoming involved in industry; which would adress the possiblity of mages becoming wealthy enough to do anything they wish; and that their sole duty would be acting as both mercenary units as well as the standing armies of the larger countries they reside in.

These villages would answer to independant contracts; and they would be accompanied by Templars; who would be mantained by either the kings or the Chantry; just in case; and they would be financed by their kings; which means that, if a village gets unruly, the kings can, quite simply, starve them out by ceasing the funds but also means that the kings have an interest in keeping them functional should a war break out; and, in the eventuality of a war, it would be the mages who would have the duty to fight to defend the nation and, again, they would be accompanied by the Templars.
It would be forbidden for mages and non-mages to live amongst each other.

Of course, I can already see several problems with this system; such as the mages having the incentive to cause conflict in order for them to maintain their importance; but it might be a start.

The idea is very sound.

Not even slightly. In fact, it's pretty much identical to what we have now except it's outdoors and they're controlled by a different non-representative master. It solves absolutely nothing.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 13 novembre 2013 - 08:36 .

[Hellion Rex]

Xilizhra wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

How about something similar to the shinobi villages in the Naruto anime?

I'll explain, mages would extablish their own villages that would fall under the authority of the king of the nation they reside in but would be independent from nobles. The mages would understand that they would be forbidden from becoming involved in industry; which would adress the possiblity of mages becoming wealthy enough to do anything they wish; and that their sole duty would be acting as both mercenary units as well as the standing armies of the larger countries they reside in.

These villages would answer to independant contracts; and they would be accompanied by Templars; who would be mantained by either the kings or the Chantry; just in case; and they would be financed by their kings; which means that, if a village gets unruly, the kings can, quite simply, starve them out by ceasing the funds but also means that the kings have an interest in keeping them functional should a war break out; and, in the eventuality of a war, it would be the mages who would have the duty to fight to defend the nation and, again, they would be accompanied by the Templars.
It would be forbidden for mages and non-mages to live amongst each other.

Of course, I can already see several problems with this system; such as the mages having the incentive to cause conflict in order for them to maintain their importance; but it might be a start.

The idea is very sound.

Not even slightly. In fact, it's pretty much identitical to what we have now except it's outdoors and they're controlled by a different non-representative master. It solves absolutely nothing.

Falling under the dominion of a nation's rule is a far cry from Chantry servitude.