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[Hellion Rex]

Xilizhra wrote...

Estelindis wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

there will be blood mages amongst the rebellion. Blood mages that we will, most likely, have the opportunity to kill

But not the requirement to do so, I suspect. Unlike, it seems, the Red Templars. May no templar remain outside them or the Chantry.

...You actively wish for all templars to be red templars?  Have I understood that correctly?

Aside from Chantry loyalists, yes.

And what happens if that is not the case? What if they aren't Chantry loyalists, but also do not follow the Red Templars?

[MisterJB]

Inprea wrote...
Then your system wouldn't work for me. What you're suggesting wouldn't leave them on equal footing to mundanes it would leave them as subservient. The connection to mundanes and a mundane king is too much for my isolationist view.

It might not place them on equal footing with kings but they would be on equal footing with common non-mages.
After all, if a king decides to come down hard on a non-mage bannorn, it wouldn't be their production of goods that would save them.
Many bannorns expecialize in one type of product that is readily available. Why can't the mage's product be their destructive magic?

That's going back to my first requirement actually. If the mages aren't allowed to produce goods for their own use then it's a deal breaker.

I could consider the possibility of mages producing good for themselves that they would be forbidden to export but only very hesitantly.

Your idea seems rather on the complex side so I doubt it'll be making it into the game but if it did I wouldn't be going that path.

I'm sure it won't make it into the game.

Where does it indicate mages are allowed to set around and develop more and more effective ways to kill people? Given that blood magic is restricted, one of the best magics for killing people storyline wise, and Morgan mentions the chantry restricts other forms of magic from study it seems to me they aren't.  I know they developed the force techniques in Dragon Age 2 but most of those abilities are support abilities.

They have to do something in the Circles. I assume developing their magic would be one of them altough that is shaky, I admit it.

Perhaps but an army can only move so effectively. Just think of the keeper based techniques we see in awakening in which a mage can learn to move through root systems. Cornering someone with such techniques could be very difficult and having an army chasing one person is very costly.

Difficult but not impossible. The humans of Thedas are quite capable of deforestation.

Plus I'm not so certain about that. Imagine virulent living bomb for example and the damage that spell could do to an army. Now imagine if it had been refined for mass destruction. Well that or a nice undead plague. In Dragon age Origins we can learn to create undead and living bomb allows us to create a mystic virus that spreads rapidly. That could be a fun experiment.

There are tactics that could deal with that. For instance, standing at a distance and using crossbows. If infected, zerg rush.
Ultimately, numbers have a power of their own, especially if some amongst those numbers are capable of dispellng magic.

[Xilizhra]

Why?

Plot streamlining and not writing off the Red Templars as an irrelevant side branch.

And what happens if that is not the case? What if they aren't Chantry loyalists, but also do not follow the Red Templars?

Then I might talk to them for three more seconds before incinerating them. Or they can surrender.

[Hellion Rex]

MisterJB wrote...

Inprea wrote...
Then your system wouldn't work for me. What you're suggesting wouldn't leave them on equal footing to mundanes it would leave them as subservient. The connection to mundanes and a mundane king is too much for my isolationist view.

It might not place them on equal footing with kings but they would be on equal footing with common non-mages.
After all, if a king decides to come down hard on a non-mage bannorn, it wouldn't be their production of goods that would save them.
Many bannorns expecialize in one type of product that is readily available. Why can't the mage's product be their destructive magic?

That's going back to my first requirement actually. If the mages aren't allowed to produce goods for their own use then it's a deal breaker.

I could consider the possibility of mages producing good for themselves that they would be forbidden to export but only very hesitantly.

Your idea seems rather on the complex side so I doubt it'll be making it into the game but if it did I wouldn't be going that path.

I'm sure it won't make it into the game.

Where does it indicate mages are allowed to set around and develop more and more effective ways to kill people? Given that blood magic is restricted, one of the best magics for killing people storyline wise, and Morgan mentions the chantry restricts other forms of magic from study it seems to me they aren't.  I know they developed the force techniques in Dragon Age 2 but most of those abilities are support abilities.

They have to do something in the Circles. I assume developing their magic would be one of them altough that is shaky, I admit it.

Perhaps but an army can only move so effectively. Just think of the keeper based techniques we see in awakening in which a mage can learn to move through root systems. Cornering someone with such techniques could be very difficult and having an army chasing one person is very costly.

Difficult but not impossible. The humans of Thedas are quite capable of deforestation.

Plus I'm not so certain about that. Imagine virulent living bomb for example and the damage that spell could do to an army. Now imagine if it had been refined for mass destruction. Well that or a nice undead plague. In Dragon age Origins we can learn to create undead and living bomb allows us to create a mystic virus that spreads rapidly. That could be a fun experiment.

There are tactics that could deal with that. For instance, standing at a distance and using crossbows. If infected, zerg rush.
Ultimately, numbers have a power of their own, especially if some amongst those numbers are capable of dispellng magic.

At the end of the day, it would depend on the individual mage's capabilities and how creative they can be with their powers. As for deforestation, then you might start pissing off some sylvans.

[Hellion Rex]

Xilizhra wrote...

Why?

Plot streamlining and not writing off the Red Templars as an irrelevant side branch.

And what happens if that is not the case? What if they aren't Chantry loyalists, but also do not follow the Red Templars?

Then I might talk to them for three more seconds before incinerating them. Or they can surrender.

Only 3 seconds, Xil?

[EmperorSahlertz]

eluvianix wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

We have already proven the claim wrong. I provided a codex entry to discount it already.

Which claim?

The mages and the possibility of being possessed while sleeping.

Edit: It was my first post on this page of the thread.

And how exactly does that entry prove that mages can't be possessed in their sleep?

[Estelindis]

Xilizhra wrote...

Plot streamlining and not writing off the Red Templars as an irrelevant side branch.

Well that's a genuinely immense relief!  I had this horrifying fear that you wanted people unlike you to be more evil so that you could happily get rid of them.  Thank you for answering my query and putting my worries to rest.

I mean, I do still find it a bit dubious that you want the plot to be streamlined in favour of your own story preferences rather than trying to balance everyone's, but it's your right to express that if you want.  Personally I'm hoping that Bioware will give us more choices.  A "streamlined" plot is less interesting to me than it seems to be to you.

[Hellion Rex]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

We have already proven the claim wrong. I provided a codex entry to discount it already.

Which claim?

The mages and the possibility of being possessed while sleeping.

Edit: It was my first post on this page of the thread.

And how exactly does that entry prove that mages can't be possessed in their sleep?

I was disputing what Dragonflight said. I was using that post to say that Yes, mages can be possessed while sleeping.

[Bardox9]

When it comes to the Circle, it should never have been a pact between the Chantry and the Inquisitors. It should have been between the Inquisitors(or Templars if you like) and Mages. My "perfect circle" is the mages running the circle and templars acting as guards only. By that I mean:

A council of the five Fraternities in every Circle deciding what the circle does and how it does it. Subject to a final review by the First Enchanter who decides if a particular policy or action should be enacted or denied. If the security, internal or external, of the Circle is involved the Knight Commander and First Enchanter must be in agreement. Templars would still be stationed through out the Circle to watch for signs of corruption.

Child mages would still have to goto the Circle when their abilities manifested, but apon completing their Harrowing would be given the choice to remain in the Circle or be allowed to move to a town or city of their choosing and reporting in regularly with the Templar garrison at the local Chantry. The potential for corruption is a constant danger for every mage. Some level of monitoring must be in place.

No Harrowing would not end in a mages death, but if the apprentice were to fall prey to the demon the Templars would use their dispelling abilities to restrain the abomination long enough for a seasoned Enchanter to enter the fade and kill the demon freeing the apprentice from possession and in time try again. The Redcliff story arc is proof that the mage does The Rite of Tranquility would be used only as it was originally meant to be used. For mages who were incapable of mastering their powers or showed no willingness to do so. The Rite of Annulment would be disolved outright.

The Chantry would have no role other than religious guidance. Unless the topic of conversation is about an absentee father figure, the Chantry does not have the insight to run such an organization. The Chantry having a say over the Circle, or the Templars for that matter, is like a daycare center deciding the actions of the UN military forces. I have yet to see a single member of the Chantry that is capable of making an intelligent decision on what the Circle of Magi or the Templar order does or does not do. They simply don't know enough.

The mages should run the Circle and the Templars should act solely as a guard force.

[MisterJB]

Estelindis wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Plot streamlining and not writing off the Red Templars as an irrelevant side branch.

Well that's a genuinely immense relief!  I had this horrifying fear that you wanted people unlike you to be more evil so that you could happily get rid of them.  Thank you for answering my query and putting my worries to rest.

That's exactly what "not writing off the Red Templars as an irrelevant side branch". He wants the Templars to be all obviously evil so all players have to kill them. It's not enough he has his cake, he has to force it down everyone else's throat as well.
On the other hand, should there be a blood mage in the game, he wants it to be a Tevinter.

Modifié par MisterJB, 13 novembre 2013 - 10:27 .

[The Elder King]

I think that Xilizhra is a woman.

[Xilizhra]

Estelindis wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Plot streamlining and not writing off the Red Templars as an irrelevant side branch.

Well that's a genuinely immense relief!  I had this horrifying fear that you wanted people unlike you to be more evil so that you could happily get rid of them.  Thank you for answering my query and putting my worries to rest.

I mean, I do still find it a bit dubious that you want the plot to be streamlined in favour of your own story preferences rather than trying to balance everyone's, but it's your right to express that if you want.  Personally I'm hoping that Bioware will give us more choices.  A "streamlined" plot is less interesting to me than it seems to be to you.

I don't need that, because I can happily get rid of templars whether or not they're Red. However, it all ties back into the "they can't make branching mage vs. templar plots because imports" problem, and that returning to the status quo would be a bad thing.

I genuinely think that an independent Templar Order is unncessary to explore various moral permutations when we have the Chantry.

[Jaison1986]

Xilizhra wrote...

Estelindis wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Plot streamlining and not writing off the Red Templars as an irrelevant side branch.

Well that's a genuinely immense relief!  I had this horrifying fear that you wanted people unlike you to be more evil so that you could happily get rid of them.  Thank you for answering my query and putting my worries to rest.

I mean, I do still find it a bit dubious that you want the plot to be streamlined in favour of your own story preferences rather than trying to balance everyone's, but it's your right to express that if you want.  Personally I'm hoping that Bioware will give us more choices.  A "streamlined" plot is less interesting to me than it seems to be to you.

I don't need that, because I can happily get rid of templars whether or not they're Red. However, it all ties back into the "they can't make branching mage vs. templar plots because imports" problem, and that returning to the status quo would be a bad thing.

I genuinely think that an independent Templar Order is unncessary to explore various moral permutations when we have the Chantry.

I actually agree with this. I really find this whole red lyrium thing an poor and needless plot device. Can't the Templars being genuinely evil without an outside factor? Such as Ser Alrik? And of course, I can see from an mile away that "clean" Templars will be Mr. Nice guys just to give an contrast.

[Estelindis]

Xilizhra wrote...

I genuinely think that an independent Templar Order is unncessary to explore various moral permutations when we have the Chantry.

Honestly, I'd view it as roughly equivalent to the three main mage factions.  Arguably, those factions matter less in the present context too.  However, there'll still be mage characters who want a balance, those who want total freedom, those who want the Circle, etc.  I find that interesting.  In a similar way, I'd find it interesting to see templars who no longer trust the Chantry to be sufficiently strict with mages but otherwise just want to do the templar thing...

Oh wait.  Maybe you're right.  How are those templars going to get their freaking lyrium?  Unless they manage to smuggle some from shady dwarves, they're looking at the Chantry or red lyrium, right?

[HiroVoid]

Estelindis wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I genuinely think that an independent Templar Order is unncessary to explore various moral permutations when we have the Chantry.

Honestly, I'd view it as roughly equivalent to the three main mage factions.  Arguably, those factions matter less in the present context too.  However, there'll still be mage characters who want a balance, those who want total freedom, those who want the Circle, etc.  I find that interesting.  In a similar way, I'd find it interesting to see templars who no longer trust the Chantry to be sufficiently strict with mages but otherwise just want to do the templar thing...

Oh wait.  Maybe you're right.  How are those templars going to get their freaking lyrium?  Unless they manage to smuggle some from shady dwarves, they're looking at the Chantry or red lyrium, right?

Well, if the chantry is so helpless without its military arm like many mage supporters have suggested, they could always take the current lyrium supply stocked by the Chantry by force or take control of the current lyrium trade since the Chantry doesn't have the might to refuse.

[Hellion Rex]

Estelindis wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I genuinely think that an independent Templar Order is unncessary to explore various moral permutations when we have the Chantry.

Honestly, I'd view it as roughly equivalent to the three main mage factions.  Arguably, those factions matter less in the present context too.  However, there'll still be mage characters who want a balance, those who want total freedom, those who want the Circle, etc.  I find that interesting.  In a similar way, I'd find it interesting to see templars who no longer trust the Chantry to be sufficiently strict with mages but otherwise just want to do the templar thing...

Oh wait.  Maybe you're right.  How are those templars going to get their freaking lyrium?  Unless they manage to smuggle some from shady dwarves, they're looking at the Chantry or red lyrium, right?

Pretty much.
Although Lambert's faction might be able to access it. However, we are unsure at the moment if that group devolves into the Red Templars, or if they are something else entirely.

[Xilizhra]

Estelindis wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I genuinely think that an independent Templar Order is unncessary to explore various moral permutations when we have the Chantry.

Honestly, I'd view it as roughly equivalent to the three main mage factions.  Arguably, those factions matter less in the present context too.  However, there'll still be mage characters who want a balance, those who want total freedom, those who want the Circle, etc.  I find that interesting.  In a similar way, I'd find it interesting to see templars who no longer trust the Chantry to be sufficiently strict with mages but otherwise just want to do the templar thing...

Oh wait.  Maybe you're right.  How are those templars going to get their freaking lyrium?  Unless they manage to smuggle some from shady dwarves, they're looking at the Chantry or red lyrium, right?

Basically, that. I also would sort of prefer the mage fraternities to pull together more in this war.

[EmperorSahlertz]

eluvianix wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

We have already proven the claim wrong. I provided a codex entry to discount it already.

Which claim?

The mages and the possibility of being possessed while sleeping.

Edit: It was my first post on this page of the thread.

And how exactly does that entry prove that mages can't be possessed in their sleep?

I was disputing what Dragonflight said. I was using that post to say that Yes, mages can be possessed while sleeping.

Ah, it was your quotation of me that threw me off . Move on, nothing to see here.

[The Flying Grey Warden]

MisterJB wrote...

eluvianix wrote...
"The Inquisition was formed around -100 Ancient with the goal of protecting the people from the tyranny of magic in whatever form it might take; blood mages, abominations, cultists or heretics."

They retconned that in "World of Thedas". Now, the Inquisition was created to restore order, was impartial and always gave people a fair trial.
Probrably because there were a lot of pro-mage losing their figurative sh*t over being part of the Inquisition.

How would you feel if you were railroaded to play a pro-mage in the black faternity, the original mage guild who once sought to fight back against the tyranny of andraste cultist who tried to kill every mage and began the first ever witch hunts?

[The Flying Grey Warden]

Are we sure mages cannot have their families visit or live outside the circle? Because the family that owns shale clearly did not live in the circle, and I seem to remember an elf mage who was still close to his family in witch hunt dlc.

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Flying Grey Warden wrote...

Are we sure mages cannot have their families visit or live outside the circle? Because the family that owns shale clearly did not live in the circle, and I seem to remember an elf mage who was still close to his family in witch hunt dlc.

So far there is nothing that indicates that all mages are kept from forming familial bonds with their actual family. Some mages are being kept from their families though, but of the ones we know of they have all been troublemakers.

[The Flying Grey Warden]

It just seems like a weird provision more fitting old star wars jedi then the mages of thedas.

[Inprea]

The Flying Grey Warden wrote...

Are we sure mages cannot have their families visit or live outside the circle? Because the family that owns shale clearly did not live in the circle, and I seem to remember an elf mage who was still close to his family in witch hunt dlc.

Well the chantry's laws aren't a force of nature. A mage can live outside the circle if they have the right connections. One mage that's mentioned in mark of the assassin, if you play a mage and get the dlc armor, could leave the circle whenever she wanted with a group of templar bodyguards. She was also the youngest first enchanter ever and it wasn't do to her aiblity.

Her father was a very powerful noble who had the money and power to decide how his little girl would be treated.

So if a mage gets in good with the right people yes they can live outside the circle. There is some risk to it as technically the templars could take them back but then they have to question if they want to risk angering your friend.

[Inprea]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The Flying Grey Warden wrote...

Are we sure mages cannot have their families visit or live outside the circle? Because the family that owns shale clearly did not live in the circle, and I seem to remember an elf mage who was still close to his family in witch hunt dlc.

So far there is nothing that indicates that all mages are kept from forming familial bonds with their actual family. Some mages are being kept from their families though, but of the ones we know of they have all been troublemakers.

Isolde seemed to fear her child being taken away and not being able to maintain family bonds with him.

http://dragonage.wik.../Connor_Guerrin

Plus Anders was stripped of every personal posession except for a pillow. This is before he became a trouble maker. Heck apparently the first thing they did was lead him away in handcuffs.

http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Anders

Modifié par Inprea, 13 novembre 2013 - 11:39 .

[Hellion Rex]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The Flying Grey Warden wrote...

Are we sure mages cannot have their families visit or live outside the circle? Because the family that owns shale clearly did not live in the circle, and I seem to remember an elf mage who was still close to his family in witch hunt dlc.

So far there is nothing that indicates that all mages are kept from forming familial bonds with their actual family. Some mages are being kept from their families though, but of the ones we know of they have all been troublemakers.

There was one enchanter, Illana of the Orlesian Circle of Montsimmard that kept ties with her family. Her parents paid off the templars though to allow such special treatment. I had pretty much assumed that it was rare that a mage be allowed to visit or contact family, although I could be wrong.