1238 réponses à ce sujet

[MisterJB]

The Flying Grey Warden wrote...
How would you feel if you were railroaded to play a pro-mage in the black faternity, the original mage guild who once sought to fight back against the tyranny of andraste cultist who tried to kill every mage and began the first ever witch hunts?

Point taken. Mayhaps I was a bit harsh in my words.
Still, there was no indication we would be railroaded to play in any way other than the name.

[Estelindis]

HiroVoid wrote...

Well, if the chantry is so helpless without its military arm like many mage supporters have suggested, they could always take the current lyrium supply stocked by the Chantry by force or take control of the current lyrium trade since the Chantry doesn't have the might to refuse.

Maybe, but if the templars start stealing from the Chantry then they're already focusing on those who should, theoretically, be their allies, rather than concentrating on reducing the threat from whatever number of mages are genuinely dangerous.

Then again, maybe they can't focus on mages at all without their precious lyrium.  Tough stuff!

[Xilizhra]

MisterJB wrote...

The Flying Grey Warden wrote...
How would you feel if you were railroaded to play a pro-mage in the black faternity, the original mage guild who once sought to fight back against the tyranny of andraste cultist who tried to kill every mage and began the first ever witch hunts?

Point taken. Mayhaps I was a bit harsh in my words.
Still, there was no indication we would be railroaded to play in any way other than the name.

And now we got a confirmation that we wouldn't be. How pleasant for all.

[Estelindis]

Anyway, regarding the actual topic: I support the best intentions of the Circle, but I cannot support every aspect of it. I hope that a better solution or reformed Circle emerges from the current chaos.

[EmperorSahlertz]

eluvianix wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The Flying Grey Warden wrote...

Are we sure mages cannot have their families visit or live outside the circle? Because the family that owns shale clearly did not live in the circle, and I seem to remember an elf mage who was still close to his family in witch hunt dlc.

So far there is nothing that indicates that all mages are kept from forming familial bonds with their actual family. Some mages are being kept from their families though, but of the ones we know of they have all been troublemakers.

There was one enchanter, Illana of the Orlesian Circle of Montsimmard that kept ties with her family. Her parents paid off the templars though to allow such special treatment. I had pretty much assumed that it was rare that a mage be allowed to visit or contact family, although I could be wrong.

Finn, Bethany and even Feynriel was also allowed family connections.

Inprea wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The Flying Grey Warden wrote...

Are we sure mages cannot have their families visit or live outside the circle? Because the family that owns shale clearly did not live in the circle, and I seem to remember an elf mage who was still close to his family in witch hunt dlc.

So far there is nothing that indicates that all mages are kept from forming familial bonds with their actual family. Some mages are being kept from their families though, but of the ones we know of they have all been troublemakers.

Isolde seemed to fear her child being taken away and not being able to maintain family bonds with him.

http://dragonage.wik.../Connor_Guerrin

Plus Anders was stripped of every personal posession except for a pillow. This is before he became a trouble maker. Heck apparently the first thing they did was lead him away in handcuffs. 

http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Anders

What Isolde feared wasn't so much that she would lose her son, but rather that the son would lose his title. After all we know that Eamon took great interrest in Conners magical education, so it is at least implied that Eamon kept connections with his son.

And Anders was young so he didn't really own anything on his own, and his father would certianly not let him leave with anything. I am not about to claim how Anders was taken by the Circle, but perhaps he had made trouble in the village he lived in? Perhaps there was a reason for the cuffs.

[Hellion Rex]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The Flying Grey Warden wrote...

Are we sure mages cannot have their families visit or live outside the circle? Because the family that owns shale clearly did not live in the circle, and I seem to remember an elf mage who was still close to his family in witch hunt dlc.

So far there is nothing that indicates that all mages are kept from forming familial bonds with their actual family. Some mages are being kept from their families though, but of the ones we know of they have all been troublemakers.

There was one enchanter, Illana of the Orlesian Circle of Montsimmard that kept ties with her family. Her parents paid off the templars though to allow such special treatment. I had pretty much assumed that it was rare that a mage be allowed to visit or contact family, although I could be wrong.

Finn, Bethany and even Feynriel was also allowed family connections.

Inprea wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The Flying Grey Warden wrote...

Are we sure mages cannot have their families visit or live outside the circle? Because the family that owns shale clearly did not live in the circle, and I seem to remember an elf mage who was still close to his family in witch hunt dlc.

So far there is nothing that indicates that all mages are kept from forming familial bonds with their actual family. Some mages are being kept from their families though, but of the ones we know of they have all been troublemakers.

Isolde seemed to fear her child being taken away and not being able to maintain family bonds with him.

http://dragonage.wik.../Connor_Guerrin

Plus Anders was stripped of every personal posession except for a pillow. This is before he became a trouble maker. Heck apparently the first thing they did was lead him away in handcuffs. 

http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Anders

What Isolde feared wasn't so much that she would lose her son, but rather that the son would lose his title. After all we know that Eamon took great interrest in Conners magical education, so it is at least implied that Eamon kept connections with his son.

And Anders was young so he didn't really own anything on his own, and his father would certianly not let him leave with anything. I am not about to claim how Anders was taken by the Circle, but perhaps he had made trouble in the village he lived in? Perhaps there was a reason for the cuffs.

Ah, I had completely missed that part about Finn. However it says, "Unlike most other mages of the circle who have no contact with their families, Finn actually has a very close relationship with his parents."
Now I can understand why some would choose not to contact their parents by choice, but that surely cannot be the case with everyone. And I would argue that Ferelden's Circle was a lot more lenient than others, which was why Finn was allowed to contact his parents.

As for Bethany, that might have been purely due to Cullen. I doubt Meredith would have sanctioned such contact. However, by Act III, she might have allowed due to Hawke being the Champion.

Modifié par eluvianix, 14 novembre 2013 - 12:18 .

[Ianamus]

eluvianix wrote...

Ah, I had completely missed that part about Finn. However it says, "Unlike most other mages of the circle who have no contact with their families, Finn actually has a very close relationship with his parents."
Now I can understand why some would choose not to contact their parents by choice, but that surely cannot be the case with everyone. And I would argue that Ferelden's Circle was a lot more lenient than others, which was why Finn was allowed to contact his parents.

As for Bethany, that might have been purely due to Cullen. I doubt Meredith would have sanctioned such contact. However, by Act III, she might have allowed due to Hawke being the Champion.

The way I think it works is that all mages in the circle are allowed contact with their families (as long as they behave), but many parents are either illiterate and can't send letters, live to far away from the circle their child is in to visit or have disowned their child due to their mage status (apparently a lot of parents of mage children do this). 

Modifié par EJ107, 14 novembre 2013 - 12:23 .

[phantomrachie]

I have no issue with the idea of a circle. Mages need a safe place to learn to control their magic and I understand that Mages can be dangerous so I can see the benefit to keeping them separate from society in general however I can’t support it in its current form.

In the circle Mages are taught that they are evil or that magic is a curse from the maker. This impression tends to come from the Templars that serve in the circle who are authority figures; if an authority figure thinks that you are a curse or evil people tend to either act out (become Blood Mages) or their self-esteem plummets (making them more venerable to daemons) . So the Templars are contributing to the danger that Mages pose.

There is also the issue that Mages can be abused and they have no legal way to stop it. Meredith was able to make any Mage she wanted tranquil and there was no way a Mage could object or stop her without being made tranquil themselves. Yes what she did was illegal BUT that doesn’t matter because she was allowed to do it and the Mages couldn’t protect themselves from her. Even the Grand Cleric was unwilling to try and stop Meredith from committing these illegal acts. Any organization that has one group at the total mercy of another can’t be allowed to continue.

The Circle needs to be a free independent organization with over site from an independent group of Enchanters, Templars, Nobles etc. This way abuses from either side can be dealt with fairly  and Mages can stop being made to feel like are less than human while still being kept from danger.

[EmperorSahlertz]

eluvianix wrote...

Ah, I had completely missed that part about Finn. However it says, "Unlike most other mages of the circle who have no contact with their families, Finn actually has a very close relationship with his parents."
Now I can understand why some would choose not to contact their parents by choice, but that surely cannot be the case with everyone. And I would argue that Ferelden's Circle was a lot more lenient than others, which was why Finn was allowed to contact his parents.

As for Bethany, that might have been purely due to Cullen. I doubt Meredith would have sanctioned such contact. However, by Act III, she might have allowed due to Hawke being the Champion.

Most mages are so young when they are taken by the Circle, that they can barely even remember their parents. Other mages get snd to foreign Circles. In the first case the mage probably doesn't ahve any need to establish contact, in the second case mages probably can't even if they wanted to, visits are certainly out of the question.
There is also the case of most peasants being illeterate, so letters are of limited use.

[Bardox9]

EJ107 wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Ah, I had completely missed that part about Finn. However it says, "Unlike most other mages of the circle who have no contact with their families, Finn actually has a very close relationship with his parents."
Now I can understand why some would choose not to contact their parents by choice, but that surely cannot be the case with everyone. And I would argue that Ferelden's Circle was a lot more lenient than others, which was why Finn was allowed to contact his parents.

As for Bethany, that might have been purely due to Cullen. I doubt Meredith would have sanctioned such contact. However, by Act III, she might have allowed due to Hawke being the Champion.

The way I think it works is that all mages in the circle are allowed contact with their families (as long as they behave), but many parents are either illiterate and can't send letters, live to far away from the circle their child is in to visit or have disowned their child due to their mage status (apparently a lot of parents of mage children do this). 

The only family disconnection I'm aware that is forced on a mage child is they must live in the circle. I'm not aware of any "rule" that says a family cannot visit their mage child and have correspondence regularly if so able and/or desired.

Modifié par Bardox9, 14 novembre 2013 - 01:27 .

[Dabrikishaw]

MisterJB wrote...

Does no one else have an opinion on my proposal?

Late to the party but I read it. Cool idea.

[Bardox9]

MisterJB wrote...

How about something similar to the shinobi villages in the Naruto anime?

I'll explain, mages would extablish their own villages that would fall under the authority of the king of the nation they reside in but would be independent from nobles. The mages would understand that they would be forbidden from becoming involved in industry; which would adress the possiblity of mages becoming wealthy enough to do anything they wish; and that their sole duty would be acting as both mercenary units as well as the standing armies of the larger countries they reside in.

These villages would answer to independant contracts; and they would be accompanied by Templars; who would be mantained by either the kings or the Chantry; just in case; and they would be financed by their kings; which means that, if a village gets unruly, the kings can, quite simply, starve them out by ceasing the funds but also means that the kings have an interest in keeping them functional should a war break out; and, in the eventuality of a war, it would be the mages who would have the duty to fight to defend the nation and, again, they would be accompanied by the Templars.
It would be forbidden for mages and non-mages to live amongst each other. But within the villages, the mages would be free to extablish what laws and rule they wish so long as they obey the most fundamental ones that apply to all villages such as, for example, the prohibition of any form of industry.

Of course, I can already see several problems with this system; such as the mages having the incentive to cause conflict in order for them to maintain their importance; but it might be a start.

I see a few problems with this system as well. Inciting conflicts to maintain their statis being one of them. Circle mages are already involved in the manufacture of potions, potices, balms, and enchanted goods sold to the rest of Thedas at the "Wonders of Thedas" shops. It's how the Circle is able to afford rare tombs, expensice relics, and ancient artifacts for study. Not to mention their food, clothes, day to day supplies, etc... The majority of the noblity look on Mages with suspicion and fear. They are not interested in handing over any of their wealth, much less the wealth of their respective kingdoms, to funding a group of people their holy books say are evil. What happens if a bigoted idiot becomes king who thinks all mages should be killed because "The Maker told me to."???

As for the village idea, there is nothing that says a Circle of Magi cannot be a village. It can be a village, but it would have to be fortified. The reason the Tower in DA:O and the Gallows in DA2 were used was simply because they were large fortified locations the Templars could easily defend. A Circle can be anything. It just has to be big and easy to lock down in case of emergency.

The "laws and rules" of any circle are left to First Enchanter and the Knight Commander. They have to agree before enacting a new policy. Or atleast that's how it is suppose to work anyway. Not the case in the Kirkwall as we saw. I personally think the Senior Enchanters for a particular Circle come up with policies and the First Enchanter (and Kinght Commander if the policy involves security issues) would get the final say as to whether or not a new policy is enacted or dismissed. Should it work out well, the Fraternities of the Enchanters could take it up and apply it to all Circles if so desired.

I don't think that segregating mages from the rest of Thedas is a good idea either. Not for their entire lives anyway. Until they have mastered their powers, sure. They should be sent to the Circle when their powers first manifest when they are children who have no control of their powers, but apon completion of their training when they pass their Harrowing they should be allowed to stay in the Circle, return to their families, or move to a city or town of their choosing. If they left the Circle, the city or town they move to would have to have a Templar Garrison near by for the mage to check in with periodically so they can still be monitored for signs of corruption or if they are having trouble with some of the locals.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Wait misterJB did you even watched naruto?
Sure anime is idealistic but world there isn't and that system caused such suffering and destruction that anime theme is now how replace that system.
practically you created system that gives much less safety than even circles and less freedom on mage side.I don't see point why we should try figure overly complicated and pointless solution in cynical setting and world because it always turn badly so simple solution as i said like killing mages is best solution because that is most practical solution.

I don't think that segregating mages from the rest of Thedas is a good idea either.

This is good idea at least only idea where mages aren't killed or abused prisoners .

Modifié par TheKomandorShepard, 14 novembre 2013 - 06:02 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Bardox9 wrote...
Child mages would still have to goto the Circle when their abilities manifested, but apon completing their Harrowing would be given the choice to remain in the Circle or be allowed to move to a town or city of their choosing and reporting in regularly with the Templar garrison at the local Chantry. The potential for corruption is a constant danger for every mage. Some level of monitoring must be in place.

Oversight nightmare.
Just how many templars do you think there are?

No Harrowing would not end in a mages death, but if the apprentice were to fall prey to the demon the Templars would use their dispelling abilities to restrain the abomination long enough for a seasoned Enchanter to enter the fade and kill the demon freeing the apprentice from possession and in time try again. The Redcliff story arc is proof that the mage does The Rite of Tranquility would be used only as it was originally meant to be used. For mages who were incapable of mastering their powers or showed no willingness to do so. The Rite of Annulment would be disolved outright.

Nope. The Redcliff intervention only worked because Connor agreed. The Possesion wasn't full or forecfull, and only in those cases can that plan work.

Also RoA is something that must be kept. It is a containment measure for a worst-case-scenario.

[TheButterflyEffect]

Jews Mages are awesome and don't deserve to be imprisoned.

[General TSAR]

It's called quarantine not imprisonment.
.......
After some thinking I've come to the realization that family visitation rights or allowing families to live in close proximity to the Circle "tower" is a really REALLY bad idea especially if the circle is compromised by hungry demons.

No the best solution is stagnation.

[Hellion Rex]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Bardox9 wrote...

No Harrowing would not end in a mages death, but if the apprentice were to fall prey to the demon the Templars would use their dispelling abilities to restrain the abomination long enough for a seasoned Enchanter to enter the fade and kill the demon freeing the apprentice from possession and in time try again. The Redcliff story arc is proof that the mage does The Rite of Tranquility would be used only as it was originally meant to be used. For mages who were incapable of mastering their powers or showed no willingness to do so. The Rite of Annulment would be disolved outright.

Nope. The Redcliff intervention only worked because Connor agreed. The Possesion wasn't full or forecfull, and only in those cases can that plan work.

Also RoA is something that must be kept. It is a containment measure for a worst-case-scenario.

How was Connor not "fully possessed"?

[Vulpe]

eluvianix wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Bardox9 wrote...

No Harrowing would not end in a mages death, but if the apprentice were to fall prey to the demon the Templars would use their dispelling abilities to restrain the abomination long enough for a seasoned Enchanter to enter the fade and kill the demon freeing the apprentice from possession and in time try again. The Redcliff story arc is proof that the mage does The Rite of Tranquility would be used only as it was originally meant to be used. For mages who were incapable of mastering their powers or showed no willingness to do so. The Rite of Annulment would be disolved outright.

Nope. The Redcliff intervention only worked because Connor agreed. The Possesion wasn't full or forecfull, and only in those cases can that plan work.

Also RoA is something that must be kept. It is a containment measure for a worst-case-scenario.

How was Connor not "fully possessed"?

If a mage is forcefully possessed ( like the members of The Circle of Ferelden  were by Uldred if you didn't use The Litany Of Andralla on time ) there's nothing that can be done. They must be killed.

If a mage accepts or is tricked in accepting to bind with the demon, and thus letting the demon posses him, then that mage can be saved via the ritual that Irving and the mages did on Connor.

Modifié par JulianWellpit, 14 novembre 2013 - 07:43 .

[Medhia Nox]

@JulianWellpit: Doesn't Anders state that he couldn't be separated?

[Hellion Rex]

JulianWellpit wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Bardox9 wrote...

No Harrowing would not end in a mages death, but if the apprentice were to fall prey to the demon the Templars would use their dispelling abilities to restrain the abomination long enough for a seasoned Enchanter to enter the fade and kill the demon freeing the apprentice from possession and in time try again. The Redcliff story arc is proof that the mage does The Rite of Tranquility would be used only as it was originally meant to be used. For mages who were incapable of mastering their powers or showed no willingness to do so. The Rite of Annulment would be disolved outright.

Nope. The Redcliff intervention only worked because Connor agreed. The Possesion wasn't full or forecfull, and only in those cases can that plan work.

Also RoA is something that must be kept. It is a containment measure for a worst-case-scenario.

How was Connor not "fully possessed"?

If a mage is forcefully possessed ( like the members of The Circle of Fereldan  were by Uldred if you didn't use The Litany Of Andralla on time ) there's nothing that can be done. They must be killed.

If a mage accepts or is tricked in accepting a demon a binding with the demon, and thus letting the demon posses him, then that mage can be saved via the ritual that Irving and the mages did on Connor.

That's weird...I had thought that the only reason we could not save the Abominations in the Broken Circle was because we were merely in the midst of the battle and did not have the time to battle each demon that was individually possessing each one on the psychic plane. The Litany of Adralla was merely a mind control preventative, and so it could not be used after full possession. Was what Wynne did to Pharamond the same thing then as Connor? Because Pharamond's possession was probably one of the most complete that we have seen in the series.

[Hellion Rex]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@JulianWellpit: Doesn't Anders state that he couldn't be separated?

Was that because of the length of time that they had been joined? Or because Anders did not wish to part with Justice?


Edit: Compared to Wynne's possession, it hardly seemed that complete.

Modifié par eluvianix, 14 novembre 2013 - 07:51 .

[Hellion Rex]

Hang on...was Justice's possession of Ander corporal or psychic? Because Justice had been physically inside of Kristoff's corpse before then.

[Medhia Nox]

@eluvianix: I think Bioware has not completely solidified a lot of their extra-worldly cosmology and there is no way to really know about much of this.

[Hellion Rex]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@eluvianix: I think Bioware has not completely solidified a lot of their extra-worldly cosmology and there is no way to really know about much of this.

Grr..some of these fine details set my teeth on edge. If we had just a little more definitive answer here or there, we might be able to understand spirits and demon a little better.

[CroGamer002]

Yeah, I'm in support of The Circle.
However, the thing demands serious reforms as it's current system is too rigid and outdated.
It has to start acting less like a prison and more as a sanctuary.

Like seriously, how family visitations aren't allowed at least? Many mages escaped The Circle just to visit their family just once, then surrendered without a fight to the Templar's when found.
In those escapes, very dangerous mages with own agendas escape too and doing serious damage later on.
Allowing family visits should lower motivations to escape, as well less militant non-mage mage supporters and less apostates as their family would be less incline to hide them.

And this is just one minor change that can remove or reduce a lot of problems from happening.