1238 réponses à ce sujet

[Giga Drill BREAKER]

Will there be an option to support no one? It would be nice if you could choose to protect ordinary people instead of all these factions

[Hellion Rex]

Mesina2 wrote...

Yeah, I'm in support of The Circle.
However, the thing demands serious reforms as it's current system is too rigid and outdated.
It has to start acting less like a prison and more as a sanctuary.

Like seriously, how family visitations aren't allowed at least? Many mages escaped The Circle just to visit their family just once, then surrendered without a fight to the Templar's when found.
In those escapes, very dangerous mages with own agendas escape too and doing serious damage later on.
Allowing family visits should lower motivations to escape, as well less militant non-mage mage supporters and less apostates as their family would be less incline to hide them.

And this is just one minor change that can remove or reduce a lot of problems from happening.

Family visitation is where it gets a little dicey. Some mages have been allowed  to visit their families, such as Finn and Illana. I think it is a matter of which Circle you visit. The situation is different at each one, due to different First Enchanters and Knight Commanders who rule those Circles.

[thats1evildude]

Mesina2 wrote...

Like seriously, how family visitations aren't allowed at least? Many mages escaped The Circle just to visit their family just once, then surrendered without a fight to the Templar's when found.

I think they do allow family visitations to a limited degree. Leandra mentions having visited Bethany in Act 2.

However, quite a few families just don't want anything to do with their "cursed" children once they go to the Circle.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 14 novembre 2013 - 08:05 .

[CroGamer002]

In that case, family visits are currently too limited in the Circle.

[CroGamer002]

DinoSteve wrote...

Will there be an option to support no one? It would be nice if you could choose to protect ordinary people instead of all these factions

Being neutral makes it much harder to protect the ordinary folk.

Plus, even ordinary folk can pick sides for various reasons.

Modifié par Mesina2, 14 novembre 2013 - 08:10 .

[Medhia Nox]

@Mesina2: That being said - there's no reason to not believe that plenty of commoners would flock to the banner of the Inquisition to try and stop the events occurring without being Pro-Fanatic or Pro-Fascist.

Mercenaries would join for money and glory - peasants would join for duty and opportunity - nobles would join for prestige and opportunity - and Templars and Mages who aren't self-absorbed would join for any number of reasons as well.

If I cannot be neutral to the Mages and Templars I will be very unhappy.

I do not expect that to make my mission easier mind you, and who knows what other groups are available.

It is important to remember that the Inquisition is a new faction.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 14 novembre 2013 - 08:14 .

[MissCurlsbel]

Icy Magebane wrote...

Segregation fosters resentment. Mages must be allowed to integrate into the population or they will continue to be demonized, and the cycle of resentment and rebellion starts anew. If the basic templar abilities were commonly understood and practiced by town guards, we wouldn't need to keep them isolated. Add in a few elite guards who specialize in this training, a few basic requirements for mages (compulsory training, phylacteries, etc), and society can move past this conflict entirely.

I agree wih this. I don't think the Circle should be totally abolished at all. It should, however, provide the means to educate and uphold the good things that can be done with magic and inform of the bad things that come with it.

Whatsmore, it is the use of magic that should be monitored, not the caster themselves. Pretty much like buying a gun in our world: You need a license and prove to be responsible with it.

Turn the Circles into schools, not prisons.

[CroGamer002]

@Medhia Nox

I didn't said you can't be neutral nor shouldn't be. Even Bioware said you will be able to be neutral in DA:I.

Also, I didn't said common folk wouldn't side with the Inquisition. Templar-Mage war will include more then those 2 factions( Inquisition, The Circle of Magi and the Chantry are one of those involved in war) and there will still be those who'll try to remain neutral.


All I'm saying is that being neutral looks to be the worst option for the common folk and picking side or manage a compromise can limit casualties, destruction, size and length of war.

[Medhia Nox]

Yeah, I'm sorry - I didn't actually mean the whole thing for you, but made no distinction otherwise.

[Ieldra]

phantomrachie wrote...

I have no issue with the idea of a circle. Mages need a safe place to learn to control their magic and I understand that Mages can be dangerous so I can see the benefit to keeping them separate from society in general however I can’t support it in its current form.

In the circle Mages are taught that they are evil or that magic is a curse from the maker. This impression tends to come from the Templars that serve in the circle who are authority figures; if an authority figure thinks that you are a curse or evil people tend to either act out (become Blood Mages) or their self-esteem plummets (making them more venerable to daemons) . So the Templars are contributing to the danger that Mages pose.

Exactly my reasoning. That's why I'm saying the Circle is not so much the problem as the people who run it. I'd also say that it should be possible for a full mage to travel more freely, but the templars and their ideology are the core of the problem.

[Medhia Nox]

A balance still needs to be maintained - because if you find that families, and familial ties, cause undo emotional strain that results in a greater propensity for possession (which is the reason I suspect behind the original concept) - then allowing mages to form such bonds must be considered.

If you have a control group where mages are allowed to proceed without a Harrowing - and observe increased chances of possession or abominations - then the Harrowing cannot be removed. But you shouldn't just "Cancel the Harrowing".

You cannot appeal to the humanity of cold science. To study magic - you cannot study it "humanely". It is not a passive practice like real sciences - beings of magic pro-actively seek to take advantage of weak willed mages who dare to become "too human".

[KC_Prototype]

Icy Magebane wrote...

Segregation fosters resentment. Mages must be allowed to integrate into the population or they will continue to be demonized, and the cycle of resentment and rebellion starts anew. If the basic templar abilities were commonly understood and practiced by town guards, we wouldn't need to keep them isolated. Add in a few elite guards who specialize in this training, a few basic requirements for mages (compulsory training, phylacteries, etc), and society can move past this conflict entirely.

Amen Icy, Preach!

[Vulpe]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@JulianWellpit: Doesn't Anders state that he couldn't be separated?

I think that his connection with Justice/Vengeance is something like the one Wynne had with the Faith spirit. It seems that the spirits merge in time with the hosts soul or something like that. Maybe the body and the magical energy that resides in every individual doesn't see the spirit as an intruder and because of this the host and the spirit develop a simbiotic relationship.

eluvianix wrote...

That's weird...I had thought that the only reason we could not save the Abominations in the Broken Circle was because we were merely in the midst of the battle and did not have the time to battle each demon that was individually possessing each one on the psychic plane. The Litany of Adralla was merely a mind control preventative, and so it could not be used after full possession. Was what Wynne did to Pharamond the same thing then as Connor? Because Pharamond's possession was probably one of the most complete that we have seen in the series.

I suspect that is something like Connor's case - remember that Wynne, Rhys and Adrian did the ritual while Shale and Evangeline had to guard them, but Rhys screwed the ritual and all of them ended in The Fade. ( if you think more about it, he accidentaly "found" a way to make the spell more potent ) 

[TK514]

Ieldra2 wrote...

phantomrachie wrote...

I have no issue with the idea of a circle. Mages need a safe place to learn to control their magic and I understand that Mages can be dangerous so I can see the benefit to keeping them separate from society in general however I can’t support it in its current form.

In the circle Mages are taught that they are evil or that magic is a curse from the maker. This impression tends to come from the Templars that serve in the circle who are authority figures; if an authority figure thinks that you are a curse or evil people tend to either act out (become Blood Mages) or their self-esteem plummets (making them more venerable to daemons) . So the Templars are contributing to the danger that Mages pose.

Exactly my reasoning. That's why I'm saying the Circle is not so much the problem as the people who run it. I'd also say that it should be possible for a full mage to travel more freely, but the templars and their ideology are the core of the problem.

Most of this is unprovable, or directly contradicted by the games themselves.  From what we know, and can observe, Mages are taught, just like everyone else, that Magic is a gift of the Maker and the mankind has brought disaster by abusing it in the past, and should be careful not to do so again.  We also know, from the Mage Origin, that the Chantry is responsible for the Mage's religious health, not the Templars.

Even Meredith doesn't claim all Mages are evil.  She claims they are all subject to temptation, but not that they are all evil.  Her rather specific mania involves Blood Mages and Abominations.  If she honestly thought all Mages were evil, she could have simply allowed the psycopath to go through with his 'Tranquil Solution' on the Kirkwall Circle and be done with it.  Yet she explicitly refuses his request.  Even HE doesn't appear to believe all Mages are evil, merely vulnerable to his predations.

Even Cullen, with his oft bemoaned 'Mages aren't like us...' conversation, doesn't say they're evil.  Simply different.

The worst you could accuse the Templars, as an organization, of feeling and projecting about mages is that Mages are different and dangerous.  Both of which are irrefutably true.  This idea that the Templars as an organization has some 'anti-mage agenda' is absurd, and contradicted both by our experiences in the Mage Origin and a thousand years of history where the worst they came up with was segregating them in Circles and doing their best to make sure they didn't turn into abominations.  Honestly, if there were some kind of institutional Mage hatred in either the Chantry or the Templars, they have a strange way of showing it.

"We hate you, so we're going to force you to live in comparatively luxurious facilities and allow you to teach yourselves spells that could allow you to destroy entire communities single-handed.  We hate you and have the means to virtually end you as a threat the moment you come into our power, so we're not going to do anything of the sort.  Instead, even though we hate you and have no obligation to house, feed, clothe, or educate you at anything close to the level at which we do, you never want for food or shelter, or fine clothing, or the most expensive substance we are currently aware of, and are the most educated group of people in all of Thedas outside the Chantry itself.  Clearly, we hate you so."

As for self-loathing, that's laughable.  We have seen what, one mage who could be described as 'self-loathing'?  There are others who might have lacked in self-confidence, but apparently not so much that they weren't willing to break in and destroy their phylactery, or escape the Circle for a couple of nights so they could lose their virginity.

Finally, the Templars do not run the Circles.  They do not have absolute authority, even over their main area of concern which is security.  We have very little direct observation of what life is like in a Circle, in fact.  We have only seen them on extraordinary circumstances.  During the day of a mage's Harrowing.  During an attempted escape (with attendant phylactery destruction), during a complete demon/abomination takeover.  We haven't even had any social interaction with the rank and file Templars, who are little more than armored statues in the few places we do see them, save for one guy who may have a crush on the PC and who ends up getting tortured later.

Instead, what we DO know is that the First Enchanter and Knight-Commander work together the ensure that the Circle laws are upheld, and that the Knight -Commander has veto power when security is concerned.  If they have any interaction with a mage's day to day at all, it is in the form of security, such as determining the curriculum for Phys Ed classes and moving calesthenics inside because one guy kept screwing it up for everyone else.

Even Meredith doesn't demonstrate that she runs the Circle, and if there's one person who would use absolute authority, it's her.  Yet we see Orsino arguing with her constantly over various breeches, such as searching mage quarters for no reason.  If she really did have absolute authority, she wouldn't tell him anything.  She'd just do it, and he could ineffectually chase after her through the halls.

Do the Templars treat Mages as dangerous?  Yes.
Do the Templars treat Mages as different?  Yes.
Do the Templars treat Mages as evil?  No.
Do the Templars treat Mages as inhuman?  No.

Do some sick bastards take advantage of the situation?  Yes.  But they are hardly representative of the Order.
Did life in the Kirkwall Circle suck?  Absolutely, but there were some seriously messed up people on every side of that situation, and the location itself didn't help matters.  Hardly typical.

Can the Circle system be improved?  Sure.  Any system can stand to be updated and improved over time.

But if half of the anti-Templar/anti-Chantry tripe that get vomited onto these forums were true, most Mages would never make it to the Circle alive, and those that did would be kept in chains and fed gruel while wearing little more than dirt, and taught just enough about their magic to light candles in the Chantry when there was no other source of fire handy.  And if a Mage did get possessed?  Great.  They'd kill a bunch of other mages before getting slaughtered.

[Hellion Rex]

JulianWellpit wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

@JulianWellpit: Doesn't Anders state that he couldn't be separated?

I think that his connection with Justice/Vengeance is something like the one Wynne had with the Faith spirit. It seems that the spirits merge in time with the hosts soul or something like that. Maybe the body and the magical energy that resides in every individual doesn't see the spirit as an intruder and because of this the host and the spirit develop a simbiotic relationship.

eluvianix wrote...

That's weird...I had thought that the only reason we could not save the Abominations in the Broken Circle was because we were merely in the midst of the battle and did not have the time to battle each demon that was individually possessing each one on the psychic plane. The Litany of Adralla was merely a mind control preventative, and so it could not be used after full possession. Was what Wynne did to Pharamond the same thing then as Connor? Because Pharamond's possession was probably one of the most complete that we have seen in the series.

I suspect that is something like Connor's case - remember that Wynne, Rhys and Adrian did the ritual while Shale and Evangeline had to guard them, but Rhys screwed the ritual and all of them ended in The Fade. ( if you think more about it, he accidentaly "found" a way to make the spell more potent ) 

Perhaps. I just found the wording that Lotion used to be a little misleading. Connor and Pharamond were "fully possessed", at least IMO. It is just that their situation is reversible....But then again, I guess you say Anders and Wynne were more...complete, I guess?

[Hellion Rex]

@TK514, very well written post.

Edit: I agree that in and of itself, the Templar Order is not a bad thing. It is unfortunately the faults of some players at the top of the food chain that have driven the Order's name in the dirt.
And even more noteworthy perhaps, we have only witnessed 3 out of 15 Circles in Andrastian Thedas and their Mage-Templar relationships. 4 if you count the Starkhaven mages, 5 if you count the brief glimpse at Dairsmuid before it was Annulled.

Modifié par eluvianix, 14 novembre 2013 - 10:40 .

[Bardox9]

JulianWellpit wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

@JulianWellpit: Doesn't Anders state that he couldn't be separated?

I think that his connection with Justice/Vengeance is something like the one Wynne had with the Faith spirit. It seems that the spirits merge in time with the hosts soul or something like that. Maybe the body and the magical energy that resides in every individual doesn't see the spirit as an intruder and because of this the host and the spirit develop a simbiotic relationship.

eluvianix wrote...

That's weird...I had thought that the only reason we could not save the Abominations in the Broken Circle was because we were merely in the midst of the battle and did not have the time to battle each demon that was individually possessing each one on the psychic plane. The Litany of Adralla was merely a mind control preventative, and so it could not be used after full possession. Was what Wynne did to Pharamond the same thing then as Connor? Because Pharamond's possession was probably one of the most complete that we have seen in the series.

I suspect that is something like Connor's case - remember that Wynne, Rhys and Adrian did the ritual while Shale and Evangeline had to guard them, but Rhys screwed the ritual and all of them ended in The Fade. ( if you think more about it, he accidentaly "found" a way to make the spell more potent ) 

In regards to the Anders question, if you take him and your sibling into the Deep Roads, when you meet up with the Wardens, Stroud says he thought Anders was dead and later (if Awakening went a particular route) you run into Nathaniel Howe who says he saw Anders dead with an arrow in his neck. Anders plays them both off, but I think that Anders (like Wynne) died and is being kept alive by the spirit that has possessed him. In that case, he truely cannot be serperated without killing him, because the host is already dead. They are too tightly intertwined.

As I understand the DA version of demonic possession, a demon does not physically exist within a host. They control them from the fade. By killing an abomination you do not kill the demon, just the host. The demon only loses it's puppet then goes in search of another. If the host is not dead and a mages enters the fade, follows the connection from the host back to the demon, and then defeats the demon in combat (or agreesive negotiating) the host can (in theory anyway) still be seperated from the demon. If the host is already dead however, you may as well be trying to exercise a spirit from a walking skeleton.

In the case of Broken Circle abominations, I don't think could be saved. Those demons were forced into  their hosts after hours of torture. That form of possession may be irreversible. If they could be saved then after you battle with Sloth the mage he was possessing would have been returned to normal. They may not be able to revert to their original forms. No idea how long a person could live as one of those mutated horrors.

The Circle should delve deeper into possession. The Mages of Tevinter may know more.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Do some sick bastards take advantage of the situation?  Yes.  But they are hardly representative of the Order.
Did
life in the Kirkwall Circle suck?  Absolutely, but there were some
seriously messed up people on every side of that situation, and the
location itself didn't help matters.  Hardly typical.

Some is said lightly and asunder shown that kirkwall wasn't only one circle set on this and that torture and beatings aren't that uncommon especially that chantry have prisons where they torture.

Templars are fanatics and their reactions on mage prove thats making circles hell for mages when theoretically they have rights practically they don't have because chantry and seekers care only when something is danger to the chantry and have mages in back parts of body.

So as i said killing mages is better for mages than circles and also more practical than circles allowing us save money what go for chantry, templars and mages and also when it comes about safety it is best solution.        

Modifié par TheKomandorShepard, 14 novembre 2013 - 11:22 .

[Hellion Rex]

Bardox9 wrote...

JulianWellpit wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

@JulianWellpit: Doesn't Anders state that he couldn't be separated?

I think that his connection with Justice/Vengeance is something like the one Wynne had with the Faith spirit. It seems that the spirits merge in time with the hosts soul or something like that. Maybe the body and the magical energy that resides in every individual doesn't see the spirit as an intruder and because of this the host and the spirit develop a simbiotic relationship.

eluvianix wrote...

That's weird...I had thought that the only reason we could not save the Abominations in the Broken Circle was because we were merely in the midst of the battle and did not have the time to battle each demon that was individually possessing each one on the psychic plane. The Litany of Adralla was merely a mind control preventative, and so it could not be used after full possession. Was what Wynne did to Pharamond the same thing then as Connor? Because Pharamond's possession was probably one of the most complete that we have seen in the series.

I suspect that is something like Connor's case - remember that Wynne, Rhys and Adrian did the ritual while Shale and Evangeline had to guard them, but Rhys screwed the ritual and all of them ended in The Fade. ( if you think more about it, he accidentaly "found" a way to make the spell more potent ) 

In regards to the Anders question, if you take him and your sibling into the Deep Roads, when you meet up with the Wardens, Stroud says he thought Anders was dead and later (if Awakening went a particular route) you run into Nathaniel Howe who says he saw Anders dead with an arrow in his neck. Anders plays them both off, but I think that Anders (like Wynne) died and is being kept alive by the spirit that has possessed him. In that case, he truely cannot be serperated without killing him, because the host is already dead. They are too tightly intertwined.

As I understand the DA version of demonic possession, a demon does not physically exist within a host. They control them from the fade. By killing an abomination you do not kill the demon, just the host. The demon only loses it's puppet then goes in search of another. If the host is not dead and a mages enters the fade, follows the connection from the host back to the demon, and then defeats the demon in combat (or agreesive negotiating) the host can (in theory anyway) still be seperated from the demon. If the host is already dead however, you may as well be trying to exercise a spirit from a walking skeleton.

In the case of Broken Circle abominations, I don't think could be saved. Those demons were forced into  their hosts after hours of torture. That form of possession may be irreversible. If they could be saved then after you battle with Sloth the mage he was possessing would have been returned to normal. They may not be able to revert to their original forms. No idea how long a person could live as one of those mutated horrors.

The Circle should delve deeper into possession. The Mages of Tevinter may know more.

That particular Sloth demon was possessing Niall, no? Niall's life force was being used to power the Fade illusion that the Warden and other people in the Tower fell prey too. So when you defeated the Sloth demon, and destroyed his illusion, Niall's life force was forfeit.

Technically, Pharamond was an abomination as well. And he was saved too. It is entirely possible that given time, those poor souls in the Broken Circle might be saved.
And I guarantee that the Tevinters probably have a much better understanding on the natures of the Fade, possession, and blood magic control.

[Hellion Rex]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Do some sick bastards take advantage of the situation?  Yes.  But they are hardly representative of the Order.
Did
life in the Kirkwall Circle suck?  Absolutely, but there were some
seriously messed up people on every side of that situation, and the
location itself didn't help matters.  Hardly typical.

Some is said lightly and asunder shown that kirkwall wasn't only one circle set on this and that torture and beatings aren't that uncommon especially that chantry have prisons where they torture.

Templars are fanatics and their reactions on mage prove thats making circles hell for mages when theoretically they have rights practically they don't have because chantry and seekers care only when something is danger to the chantry and have mages in back parts of body.

So as i said killing mages is better for mages than circles and also more practical than circles allowing us save money what go for chantry, templars and mages and also when it comes about safety it is best solution.        

Beyond Aeonar, we have no record of Chantry prisons.

[TheKomandorShepard]

eluvianix wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Do some sick bastards take advantage of the situation?  Yes.  But they are hardly representative of the Order.
Did
life in the Kirkwall Circle suck?  Absolutely, but there were some
seriously messed up people on every side of that situation, and the
location itself didn't help matters.  Hardly typical.

Some is said lightly and asunder shown that kirkwall wasn't only one circle set on this and that torture and beatings aren't that uncommon especially that chantry have prisons where they torture.

Templars are fanatics and their reactions on mage prove thats making circles hell for mages when theoretically they have rights practically they don't have because chantry and seekers care only when something is danger to the chantry and have mages in back parts of body.

So as i said killing mages is better for mages than circles and also more practical than circles allowing us save money what go for chantry, templars and mages and also when it comes about safety it is best solution.        

Beyond Aeonar, we have no record of Chantry prisons.

youtu.be/-093SQo9NWM

Modifié par TheKomandorShepard, 14 novembre 2013 - 11:39 .

[Hellion Rex]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Do some sick bastards take advantage of the situation?  Yes.  But they are hardly representative of the Order.
Did
life in the Kirkwall Circle suck?  Absolutely, but there were some
seriously messed up people on every side of that situation, and the
location itself didn't help matters.  Hardly typical.

Some is said lightly and asunder shown that kirkwall wasn't only one circle set on this and that torture and beatings aren't that uncommon especially that chantry have prisons where they torture.

Templars are fanatics and their reactions on mage prove thats making circles hell for mages when theoretically they have rights practically they don't have because chantry and seekers care only when something is danger to the chantry and have mages in back parts of body.

So as i said killing mages is better for mages than circles and also more practical than circles allowing us save money what go for chantry, templars and mages and also when it comes about safety it is best solution.        

Beyond Aeonar, we have no record of Chantry prisons.

youtu.be/-093SQo9NWM

I stand corrected. But do we know anything else about the prison? Other than that it was housing a powerful Sarebaas?

[EmperorSahlertz]

That prison was the Gallows. Every Circle have confinement units. Which is basically just a fancy word for dungeon. Considering that the Templars bring in people like Anders, who they keep alive, but who obviously can't be allowed to mingle withthe rest of the Circle, such dungeons can't come as a surprise.

[The Flying Grey Warden]

You know if the circles are really such a violent oppressive hell one needs to wonder what made anders such a special snowflake that he escaped 6 times and hadn't been made tranquil yet.

[TheKomandorShepard]

eluvianix wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Do some sick bastards take advantage of the situation?  Yes.  But they are hardly representative of the Order.
Did
life in the Kirkwall Circle suck?  Absolutely, but there were some
seriously messed up people on every side of that situation, and the
location itself didn't help matters.  Hardly typical.

Some is said lightly and asunder shown that kirkwall wasn't only one circle set on this and that torture and beatings aren't that uncommon especially that chantry have prisons where they torture.

Templars are fanatics and their reactions on mage prove thats making circles hell for mages when theoretically they have rights practically they don't have because chantry and seekers care only when something is danger to the chantry and have mages in back parts of body.

So as i said killing mages is better for mages than circles and also more practical than circles allowing us save money what go for chantry, templars and mages and also when it comes about safety it is best solution.        

Beyond Aeonar, we have no record of Chantry prisons.

youtu.be/-093SQo9NWM

I stand corrected. But do we know anything else about the prison? Other than that it was housing a powerful Sarebaas?

We know that they kidnapped dalish keeper for information (that guy who is tortured is keeper) and qunari because chantry watned qunari secrets and their magic i don't remember more watch redemption and see.