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[The Flying Grey Warden]

Why would the chantry want inferior qunari magic? I would imagine the recipe for explosives would be worth a lot more to them.

[Hellion Rex]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

That prison was the Gallows. Every Circle have confinement units. Which is basically just a fancy word for dungeon. Considering that the Templars bring in people like Anders, who they keep alive, but who obviously can't be allowed to mingle withthe rest of the Circle, such dungeons can't come as a surprise.

I have never watched Redemption so I wasn't quite sure where that was supposed to be. But again, beyond Aeonar, we have no official records of Chantry prisons.

[Hellion Rex]

The Flying Grey Warden wrote...

Why would the chantry want inferior qunari magic? I would imagine the recipe for explosives would be worth a lot more to them.

I wouldn't say that Qunari magic is inferior. A Sarebaas can still slap around other mages.

[TheKomandorShepard]

The Flying Grey Warden wrote...

You know if the circles are really such a violent oppressive hell one needs to wonder what made anders such a special snowflake that he escaped 6 times and hadn't been made tranquil yet.

considering that ferelden is creation of dao what was lighter and softer because devs didn't know how much cycnical want setting to be ferelden is smallest hell hole in thedas in da 2 they cleary take route to create crapsack world where no matter what you do everyone is screwd.  

The Flying Grey Warden wrote...

Why would the chantry want
inferior qunari magic? I would imagine the recipe for explosives would
be worth a lot more to them.

And why you are asking me?

Modifié par TheKomandorShepard, 15 novembre 2013 - 12:05 .

[Inprea]

The Flying Grey Warden wrote...

You know if the circles are really such a violent oppressive hell one needs to wonder what made anders such a special snowflake that he escaped 6 times and hadn't been made tranquil yet.

If I remember correctly in awakening it's because he had been harrowed and no mage that has undergone the harrowing may be made tranquil. If that is the case then Meredith broke that rule.

Beyond escaping I don't believe he gave them any reason to kill him either. None violent captures. They seem plenty ready to kill him though when he's taken into the grey Wardens. Setting a trap for him and even going against the king/queen's orders. They also seemed plenty ready to blame him for the templars that were killed by darkspawn.

[Hellion Rex]

Inprea wrote...

The Flying Grey Warden wrote...

You know if the circles are really such a violent oppressive hell one needs to wonder what made anders such a special snowflake that he escaped 6 times and hadn't been made tranquil yet.

If I remember correctly in awakening it's because he had been harrowed and no mage that has undergone the harrowing may be made tranquil. If that is the case then Meredith broke that rule.

Beyond escaping I don't believe he gave them any reason to kill him either. None violent captures. They seem plenty ready to kill him though when he's taken into the grey Wardens. Setting a trap for him and even going against the king/queen's orders. They also seemed plenty ready to blame him for the templars that were killed by darkspawn.

Indeed. No mage can be made Tranquil after they are Harrowed.

[The Flying Grey Warden]

eluvianix wrote...

Inprea wrote...

The Flying Grey Warden wrote...

You know if the circles are really such a violent oppressive hell one needs to wonder what made anders such a special snowflake that he escaped 6 times and hadn't been made tranquil yet.

If I remember correctly in awakening it's because he had been harrowed and no mage that has undergone the harrowing may be made tranquil. If that is the case then Meredith broke that rule.

Beyond escaping I don't believe he gave them any reason to kill him either. None violent captures. They seem plenty ready to kill him though when he's taken into the grey Wardens. Setting a trap for him and even going against the king/queen's orders. They also seemed plenty ready to blame him for the templars that were killed by darkspawn.

Indeed. No mage can be made Tranquil after they are Harrowed.

Kinda explains why there is a dungeon area for mages now. You can't neutralize them with a tranquility, but you can't just let them go free when they have clearly broken the law. And no normal dungeon would be capable of holding them either or have the personel who could properly watch them.

Modifié par The Flying Grey Warden, 15 novembre 2013 - 12:27 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

Inprea wrote...

The Flying Grey Warden wrote...

You know if the circles are really such a violent oppressive hell one needs to wonder what made anders such a special snowflake that he escaped 6 times and hadn't been made tranquil yet.

If I remember correctly in awakening it's because he had been harrowed and no mage that has undergone the harrowing may be made tranquil. If that is the case then Meredith broke that rule.

When?

[Hellion Rex]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Inprea wrote...

The Flying Grey Warden wrote...

You know if the circles are really such a violent oppressive hell one needs to wonder what made anders such a special snowflake that he escaped 6 times and hadn't been made tranquil yet.

If I remember correctly in awakening it's because he had been harrowed and no mage that has undergone the harrowing may be made tranquil. If that is the case then Meredith broke that rule.

When?

I am pretty sure Meredith did not. If there was ever a dubious case, I believe it was the Starkhaven mages?


EDIT: Scratch that. Meredith had 3 of them executed at random, not made Tranquil.

Modifié par eluvianix, 15 novembre 2013 - 12:39 .

[Estelindis]

TK514 wrote...

From what we know, and can observe, Mages are taught, just like everyone else, that Magic is a gift of the Maker and the mankind has brought disaster by abusing it in the past, and should be careful not to do so again.  We also know, from the Mage Origin, that the Chantry is responsible for the Mage's religious health, not the Templars.

Even Meredith doesn't claim all Mages are evil.  She claims they are all subject to temptation, but not that they are all evil.  Her rather specific mania involves Blood Mages and Abominations.  If she honestly thought all Mages were evil, she could have simply allowed the psycopath to go through with his 'Tranquil Solution' on the Kirkwall Circle and be done with it.  Yet she explicitly refuses his request.  Even HE doesn't appear to believe all Mages are evil, merely vulnerable to his predations.

Snipping for length, but this was an extremely well-written post.  Thank you for making great points, with great eloquence, at great length.

[Bardox9]

eluvianix wrote...

Bardox9 wrote...

JulianWellpit wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

@JulianWellpit: Doesn't Anders state that he couldn't be separated?

I think that his connection with Justice/Vengeance is something like the one Wynne had with the Faith spirit. It seems that the spirits merge in time with the hosts soul or something like that. Maybe the body and the magical energy that resides in every individual doesn't see the spirit as an intruder and because of this the host and the spirit develop a simbiotic relationship.

eluvianix wrote...

That's weird...I had thought that the only reason we could not save the Abominations in the Broken Circle was because we were merely in the midst of the battle and did not have the time to battle each demon that was individually possessing each one on the psychic plane. The Litany of Adralla was merely a mind control preventative, and so it could not be used after full possession. Was what Wynne did to Pharamond the same thing then as Connor? Because Pharamond's possession was probably one of the most complete that we have seen in the series.

I suspect that is something like Connor's case - remember that Wynne, Rhys and Adrian did the ritual while Shale and Evangeline had to guard them, but Rhys screwed the ritual and all of them ended in The Fade. ( if you think more about it, he accidentaly "found" a way to make the spell more potent ) 

In regards to the Anders question, if you take him and your sibling into the Deep Roads, when you meet up with the Wardens, Stroud says he thought Anders was dead and later (if Awakening went a particular route) you run into Nathaniel Howe who says he saw Anders dead with an arrow in his neck. Anders plays them both off, but I think that Anders (like Wynne) died and is being kept alive by the spirit that has possessed him. In that case, he truely cannot be serperated without killing him, because the host is already dead. They are too tightly intertwined.

As I understand the DA version of demonic possession, a demon does not physically exist within a host. They control them from the fade. By killing an abomination you do not kill the demon, just the host. The demon only loses it's puppet then goes in search of another. If the host is not dead and a mages enters the fade, follows the connection from the host back to the demon, and then defeats the demon in combat (or agreesive negotiating) the host can (in theory anyway) still be seperated from the demon. If the host is already dead however, you may as well be trying to exercise a spirit from a walking skeleton.

In the case of Broken Circle abominations, I don't think could be saved. Those demons were forced into  their hosts after hours of torture. That form of possession may be irreversible. If they could be saved then after you battle with Sloth the mage he was possessing would have been returned to normal. They may not be able to revert to their original forms. No idea how long a person could live as one of those mutated horrors.

The Circle should delve deeper into possession. The Mages of Tevinter may know more.

That particular Sloth demon was possessing Niall, no? Niall's life force was being used to power the Fade illusion that the Warden and other people in the Tower fell prey too. So when you defeated the Sloth demon, and destroyed his illusion, Niall's life force was forfeit.

Technically, Pharamond was an abomination as well. And he was saved too. It is entirely possible that given time, those poor souls in the Broken Circle might be saved.
And I guarantee that the Tevinters probably have a much better understanding on the natures of the Fade, possession, and blood magic control.

No, Niall was already on the ground. When you walk into the room where you meet Sloth's abomination form in the tower Niall is laying motionless with Sloth standing over him. After you defeat sloth and return to the waking world, the abomination falls in one direction and Nialls body is to the right.

Pharamond was tranquil prior to possession. That may have changed something. I'm not sure. I would like to believe the abominations in Broken Circle could be saved. Further study is warranted.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Evidently since he was cured of his possession Pharamond consented to the possession.

[Bardox9]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Evidently since he was cured of his possession Pharamond consented to the possession.

Didn't he summon the demon that possessed him?

[EmperorSahlertz]

Bardox9 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Evidently since he was cured of his possession Pharamond consented to the possession.

Didn't he summon the demon that possessed him?

One way or another yes.

[cjones91]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Bardox9 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Evidently since he was cured of his possession Pharamond consented to the possession.

Didn't he summon the demon that possessed him?

One way or another yes.

Not only did Pharamond summon the Pride Demon he also baited it in order to complete his research.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Indeed. So? The very fact that he was cured form his possession proves one of two things. Either A: it was with his consent, thus allowing him to be cured in the future. Or B: Being tranquil somehow changes the rules of possession.

[Hellion Rex]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Indeed. So? The very fact that he was cured form his possession proves one of two things. Either A: it was with his consent, thus allowing him to be cured in the future. Or B: Being tranquil somehow changes the rules of possession.

Well technically, it was with his consent. Was not the whole point of his research to let himself be possessed and see if it reverses Tranquility?

[cjones91]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Indeed. So? The very fact that he was cured form his possession proves one of two things. Either A: it was with his consent, thus allowing him to be cured in the future. Or B: Being tranquil somehow changes the rules of possession.

I'll say it was a bit of both,Pharamond willing summoned and baited a demon to possess him since they could'nt sense he was there due to being Tranquil.Then because he was Traquil when possessed Pharamond was able to be saved from the demon.

[Xilizhra]

Even Meredith doesn't claim all Mages are evil. She claims they are all subject to temptation, but not that they are all evil. Her rather specific mania involves Blood Mages and Abominations. If she honestly thought all Mages were evil, she could have simply allowed the psycopath to go through with his 'Tranquil Solution' on the Kirkwall Circle and be done with it. Yet she explicitly refuses his request. Even HE doesn't appear to believe all Mages are evil, merely vulnerable to his predations.

That was never the problem, but that magic was somehow evil/tainted. Whether it's taught as being a gift or not seems to vary highly... but I've never seen anyone in the Chantry speak of it as one apart from Leliana.

The worst you could accuse the Templars, as an organization, of feeling and projecting about mages is that Mages are different and dangerous. Both of which are irrefutably true. This idea that the Templars as an organization has some 'anti-mage agenda' is absurd, and contradicted both by our experiences in the Mage Origin and a thousand years of history where the worst they came up with was segregating them in Circles and doing their best to make sure they didn't turn into abominations. Honestly, if there were some kind of institutional Mage hatred in either the Chantry or the Templars, they have a strange way of showing it.

No. Their anti-mage agenda is keeping mages imprisoned and oppressed. They can't just kill all mages, that would be literally impossible; instead, they pull this off to keep them leashed.

Finally, the Templars do not run the Circles. They do not have absolute authority, even over their main area of concern which is security. We have very little direct observation of what life is like in a Circle, in fact. We have only seen them on extraordinary circumstances. During the day of a mage's Harrowing. During an attempted escape (with attendant phylactery destruction), during a complete demon/abomination takeover. We haven't even had any social interaction with the rank and file Templars, who are little more than armored statues in the few places we do see them, save for one guy who may have a crush on the PC and who ends up getting tortured later.

They have far too much power. Military regimes are almost never a good idea, and the Knight-Commander is apparently regularly able to pressure the First Enchanter into mindraping people... or simply slaughtering the entire Circle with the consent of his boss.

Even Meredith doesn't demonstrate that she runs the Circle, and if there's one person who would use absolute authority, it's her. Yet we see Orsino arguing with her constantly over various breeches, such as searching mage quarters for no reason. If she really did have absolute authority, she wouldn't tell him anything. She'd just do it, and he could ineffectually chase after her through the halls.

Meredith's portrayal is extremely inconsistent, arguing about this with Orsino at one moment and ordering unilateral Tranquility at others. Presumably there's some kind of internal politics explaining this that we don't see.

Do the Templars treat Mages as dangerous? Yes.
Do the Templars treat Mages as different? Yes.
Do the Templars treat Mages as evil? No.
Do the Templars treat Mages as inhuman? No.

They explicitly do that last one, with Cullen outright saying that mages can't be treated like people, and some do treat all mages as being either evil or being probably evil. Such as Meredith.

Do some sick bastards take advantage of the situation? Yes. But they are hardly representative of the Order.

They're absolutely representative of the kind of people the Order attracts and allows to operate.

Did life in the Kirkwall Circle suck? Absolutely, but there were some seriously messed up people on every side of that situation, and the location itself didn't help matters. Hardly typical.

The White Spire in Asunder is barely any better, and even Ferelden's Circle is hardly a paradise.

But if half of the anti-Templar/anti-Chantry tripe that get vomited onto these forums were true, most Mages would never make it to the Circle alive, and those that did would be kept in chains and fed gruel while wearing little more than dirt, and taught just enough about their magic to light candles in the Chantry when there was no other source of fire handy. And if a Mage did get possessed? Great. They'd kill a bunch of other mages before getting slaughtered.

They tried that already. It started a rebellion that ended up with the mages taking over the Grand Cathedral. This is their "compromise" that manages to keep the mages both too placid for many to risk their lives while still giving as little freedom as possible.

[Lord Raijin]

eluvianix wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

That prison was the Gallows. Every Circle have confinement units. Which is basically just a fancy word for dungeon. Considering that the Templars bring in people like Anders, who they keep alive, but who obviously can't be allowed to mingle withthe rest of the Circle, such dungeons can't come as a surprise.

I have never watched Redemption so I wasn't quite sure where that was supposed to be. But again, beyond Aeonar, we have no official records of Chantry prisons.

I have and I don't know if I should take the show seriously or view it as a joke. Is this show suppose to be canon? I don't know. I just couldn't finish watching because of the cheap outfits that they were wearing and very bad acting among other things.

Modifié par Lord Raijin, 15 novembre 2013 - 03:12 .

[TheKomandorShepard]

They can't just kill all mages, that would be literally impossible; instead, they pull this off to keep them leashed.

Why they can't i often hear that argument from pro-mages when it is possible

But well at least few points are rights so im surprised

[Bardox9]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

They can't just kill all mages, that would be literally impossible; instead, they pull this off to keep them leashed.

Why they can't i often hear that argument from pro-mages when it is possible

But well at least few points are rights so im surprised

Killing all mages is not possible. Any human/elf child has the potential to be a mage. A mages parents may have no history of magic in their family and still have a mage child. You can't kill all mages any more than you can kill all bigots.

[SgtSteel91]

What the Komandor is proposing is that as soon as a person, usually a kid, shows to have magic potential they kill him/her. And you keep killing those with magic potential as soon as they spring up for eternity.

[TEWR]

Ah, skimming this page triggered something I wanted to mention.

How Tranquility is just as dangerous as anything else, because of the "pure logic" thing. We see how a Tranquil's obsession with what seems "logical" can lead to the deaths of hundreds and hundreds of people.

So in that regard, one could say Tranquility is just as dangerous as not being Tranquil.

That said, the circumstances were unique, but still... pure logic is dangerous.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Indeed. So? The very fact that he was cured form his possession proves one of two things. Either A: it was with his consent, thus allowing him to be cured in the future. Or B: Being tranquil somehow changes the rules of possession.

I've got Asunder and I've been reading it, and the details are that Pharamond was Tranquil throughout the entire thing. He drew runes (in blood IIRC) that managed to keep him trapped should he become possessed. He managed to attract a demon's attention (I don't think it was actually summoned, since they save him in the Fade) and consented to the possession.

And then he was cured.

But possession itself is not the requirement. The mind just needs to be touched by a spirit.

[Bardox9]

SgtSteel91 wrote...

What the Komandor is proposing is that as soon as a person, usually a kid, shows to have magic potential they kill him/her. And you keep killing those with magic potential as soon as they spring up for eternity.

Templars killing children... can't imagine why the Chantry wouldn't like that image in peoples heads when they talk about "the love of the Maker" can you?