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[Medhia Nox]

@The Ethereal Writer Redux: Which Tranquil in the games kills hundreds and hundreds of people?

[TEWR]

Not game, book. Pharamond, by virtue of his "it was logical" mindset. Several hundred people were in Adamant Fortress with Pharamond, and his logical mindset led him to lock the fortress down so nothing could get out should something go wrong.

Sure, it makes sense, but it also trapped all those people. Needless to say, it didn't go well.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 15 novembre 2013 - 04:20 .

[Medhia Nox]

Well then, now we just have to discover what they decide to use from their books in their games.

Gaider stated (re-stated) about two weeks ago that the books/comics/etc. can't be used as canon for the games.

I was just curious which Tranquil you were talking about. Thanks

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 15 novembre 2013 - 04:22 .

[Bardox9]

Pharamond was a tranquil mage in Asunder that the Divine tasked with finding a way to undo the Rite of Tranquility. The solution he found was bounding a spirit/demon from the fade with a tranquil mage, himself. It did technically work, but it also unleashed more than the one spirit he needed and flooded a Keep with demons that possessed and killed those in the keep. Death tolls were in the triple digits.

[Hazegurl]

Bardox9 wrote...
For the Templar supporters, Mages are a fact of life in Thedas. Even if you force tranquility on all of them or kill them outright, dozens or perhaps even a hundred more will be born tomorrow. Simply being a mage does not disquailfy them as people. A mage deserves so less respect than any farmer or noble. You can't condemn them for simply being different.

I love your post, well written and truthful. That's why I think the Circles are needed but they do need to change.

As for the quote above, I can't speak for all Templar supporters. But I:

1. Understand that Mages and magic is a fact of life in Thedas that most likely will not go away.  And I don't want it to. I support Magic. I guess that should be the next thread.  The issue is that demons and veil tears are also a fact of life in Thedas and shouldn't be made worse.

2. I do not want all mages tranquil or dead. However, all mages need to be accounted for.

3. I know Mages are people and deserve respect. but being oppressed doesn't give them the right to place people's lives in danger.

Not saying your quote is wrong. I'm just saying that as a Templar supporter those are not my views.

Edit: Seems like the thread may have or already did evolve into a Templar/Mage debate.

Modifié par Hazegurl, 15 novembre 2013 - 04:37 .

[SgtSteel91]

The real problem, to me, is the Fade and Spirits trying to posse people and that is root of all this concern. There needs to be more discussion on combating Sprits themselves and stopping them from possessing people more than 'have mages be emotionally stable.' Like finding a way to permanently protect a mage from ever being in contact with a Spirit, be is a rune, charm, spell, whatever.

[Bardox9]

Hazegurl wrote...

Bardox9 wrote...
For the Templar supporters, Mages are a fact of life in Thedas. Even if you force tranquility on all of them or kill them outright, dozens or perhaps even a hundred more will be born tomorrow. Simply being a mage does not disquailfy them as people. A mage deserves so less respect than any farmer or noble. You can't condemn them for simply being different.

I love your post, well written and truthful. That's why I think the Circles are needed but they do need to change.

As for the quote above, I can't speak for all Templar supporters. But I:

1. Understand that Mages and magic is a fact of life in Thedas that most likely will not go away.  And I don't want it to. I support Magic. I guess that should be the next thread.  The issue is that demons and veil tears are also a fact of life in Thedas and shouldn't be made worse.

2. I do not want all mages tranquil or dead. However, all mages need to be accounted for.

3. I know Mages are people and deserve respect. but being oppressed doesn't give them the right to place people's lives in danger.

Not saying your quote is wrong. I'm just saying that as a Templar supporter those are not my views.

Edit: Seems like the thread may have or already did evolve into a Templar/Mage debate.

Any discussion about the Circle involves Templars and Mages. Difference I wanted was to weed out the extremists from the moderates. A thread were it is not simply Templar Vs Mage, but a thread where it is Templar & Mage.

The "I support Mages" threads mix the "We must be cautious" people with the "live free or DIE!" people.

The "I support Templars" threads mix the "Mages are still people" people with the "Vile creatures... KILL THEM!" people.

The Circle is a format that is less divisive and more inclusionary. My hope is that it will breed reasonable compromise rather than irrational annihilism.

[Lord Raijin]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@The Ethereal Writer Redux: Which Tranquil in the games kills hundreds and hundreds of people?

It hasn't happen in the game, but it could very well happen. Serial killers lack of emotion therefor have no remorse for what they do. The incident between a human tranquil Helena and Jaken is a proven fact that tranquils can be programmed  to obey their Masters/Mistresses command. The fact that at the end of the conversation the tranquil woman told her former lover “ I am Ser Alrik's now. Hes the only one that can command me now.”

The Mages that Ser Alrik made tranquil could very well had been his promising little army if he had a genocidal plan to eradicate the mages in Thedas.

Modifié par Lord Raijin, 15 novembre 2013 - 05:09 .

[dragonflight288]

SgtSteel91 wrote...

The real problem, to me, is the Fade and Spirits trying to posse people and that is root of all this concern. There needs to be more discussion on combating Sprits themselves and stopping them from possessing people more than 'have mages be emotionally stable.' Like finding a way to permanently protect a mage from ever being in contact with a Spirit, be is a rune, charm, spell, whatever.

Ah, but therein lies another problem. In order to properly study demons and spirits and how to combat them effectively, you would have to practice demonology, or at least summon them regularly as test subjects.

Under the current laws of Thedas, the very act of doing so is worthy of execution.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Bardox9 wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

They can't just kill all mages, that would be literally impossible; instead, they pull this off to keep them leashed.

Why they can't i often hear that argument from pro-mages when it is possible

But well at least few points are rights so im surprised

Killing all mages is not possible. Any human/elf child has the potential to be a mage. A mages parents may have no history of magic in their family and still have a mage child. You can't kill all mages any more than you can kill all bigots.

And what stops you from killing new born mages?

[Bardox9]

dragonflight288 wrote...

SgtSteel91 wrote...

The real problem, to me, is the Fade and Spirits trying to posse people and that is root of all this concern. There needs to be more discussion on combating Sprits themselves and stopping them from possessing people more than 'have mages be emotionally stable.' Like finding a way to permanently protect a mage from ever being in contact with a Spirit, be is a rune, charm, spell, whatever.

Ah, but therein lies another problem. In order to properly study demons and spirits and how to combat them effectively, you would have to practice demonology, or at least summon them regularly as test subjects.

Under the current laws of Thedas, the very act of doing so is worthy of execution.

I talked earlier about a few reforms the Circle should under go, this is another. Without a deeper understanding of spirits/demons and how they possess people, we will not be able to develop a practical method of defending against possession. Throwing an apprentice at the foot of a demon, holding a sword at the apprentices neck, then crossing your fingers is not a defense. Even the Rite of Tranquility, which is advertised to the rest of Thedas as the only sure way to prevent demonic possession, doesn't prevent possession. In fact, possession reverses Tranquility.

This needs to be studied, but how do you do that in a world such as Thedas? Their religious leaders, for generations, told the masses that magic is evil and a curse on the world. The majority of the Templar ranks are filled with bigots and sadists who have no interest in learning about the fade and if you even talk about spirits and demons around them you run the risk of getting a sword in your gut.

Mage's can't do it alone. If they tried to hide such research from the Templars and were discovered, all the mages involved would be made tranquil or killed. It would have to be done with Templar consent. By that I mean, both the First Enchanter and Knight Commander of a Circle would have to select a team trutsted Mages, Tranquil, and Templars to study such dangerous material. In the event of an experiment, they would need an off site location that could be easily quarantined.

To whom you would propose this, I have no idea. The Grand Enchanter and Knight Divine for a unilateral decision?

[TK514]

Bardox9 wrote...

SgtSteel91 wrote...

What the Komandor is proposing is that as soon as a person, usually a kid, shows to have magic potential they kill him/her. And you keep killing those with magic potential as soon as they spring up for eternity.

Templars killing children... can't imagine why the Chantry wouldn't like that image in peoples heads when they talk about "the love of the Maker" can you?

If they really hated Mages, they've had over a thousand years to teach people that Mages, even children, are worthy of death.  With that kind of time to indoctrinate, it wouldn't matter what age the Mage was, they'd be viewed as monsters to be destroyed.

[Icy Magebane]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...
And what stops you from killing new born mages?

Magical abilities don't manifest until later in life.  There's no way of knowing if a newborn is a mage or not.

Modifié par Icy Magebane, 15 novembre 2013 - 08:14 .

[Senya]

I've always supported the Circle as the best solution. Does it need reform? Of course. But it has still been the best magical organization in Thedas' history for the majority of the population.

[Bardox9]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Bardox9 wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

They can't just kill all mages, that would be literally impossible; instead, they pull this off to keep them leashed.

Why they can't i often hear that argument from pro-mages when it is possible

But well at least few points are rights so im surprised

Killing all mages is not possible. Any human/elf child has the potential to be a mage. A mages parents may have no history of magic in their family and still have a mage child. You can't kill all mages any more than you can kill all bigots.

And what stops you from killing new born mages?

Other than a lack of willingness to kill newborns, nothing I suppose. But even if you could tell at that age it will still not get rid of mages. More will be born tomorrow and the day after that and the day after that. How many babies would you have the Templars kill exactly? They have trouble with their image already without the sudden appearance of statues of a templar impaling an infant.

Modifié par Bardox9, 15 novembre 2013 - 08:12 .

[Hellion Rex]

TK514 wrote...

Bardox9 wrote...

SgtSteel91 wrote...

What the Komandor is proposing is that as soon as a person, usually a kid, shows to have magic potential they kill him/her. And you keep killing those with magic potential as soon as they spring up for eternity.

Templars killing children... can't imagine why the Chantry wouldn't like that image in peoples heads when they talk about "the love of the Maker" can you?

If they really hated Mages, they've had over a thousand years to teach people that Mages, even children, are worthy of death.  With that kind of time to indoctrinate, it wouldn't matter what age the Mage was, they'd be viewed as monsters to be destroyed.

But you can hardly advocate that the Chantry has a stellar record in regards to public perception of mages though. Up until Justinia at least.

[Lord Raijin]

I think majority of pro templars and the pro mages here can both acknowledge that the Circle is necessary.

[Hellion Rex]

Lord Raijin wrote...

I think majority of pro templars and the pro mages here can both acknowledge that the Circle is necessary.

It just depends on the circumstances of the game. We might end in a situation where Circles are not feasible anymore, not because of the war but because of some other circumstances like the Veil tearing.

[Bardox9]

eluvianix wrote...

TK514 wrote...

Bardox9 wrote...

SgtSteel91 wrote...

What the Komandor is proposing is that as soon as a person, usually a kid, shows to have magic potential they kill him/her. And you keep killing those with magic potential as soon as they spring up for eternity.

Templars killing children... can't imagine why the Chantry wouldn't like that image in peoples heads when they talk about "the love of the Maker" can you?

If they really hated Mages, they've had over a thousand years to teach people that Mages, even children, are worthy of death.  With that kind of time to indoctrinate, it wouldn't matter what age the Mage was, they'd be viewed as monsters to be destroyed.

But you can hardly advocate that the Chantry has a stellar record in regards to public perception of mages though. Up until Justinia at least.

The Chantry routinely tells people that magic is evil and a mages are cursed by the Maker. I have yet to see any cleric with a basic understanding of the Circle or magic in general.

[Hellion Rex]

Bardox9 wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

TK514 wrote...

Bardox9 wrote...

SgtSteel91 wrote...

What the Komandor is proposing is that as soon as a person, usually a kid, shows to have magic potential they kill him/her. And you keep killing those with magic potential as soon as they spring up for eternity.

Templars killing children... can't imagine why the Chantry wouldn't like that image in peoples heads when they talk about "the love of the Maker" can you?

If they really hated Mages, they've had over a thousand years to teach people that Mages, even children, are worthy of death.  With that kind of time to indoctrinate, it wouldn't matter what age the Mage was, they'd be viewed as monsters to be destroyed.

But you can hardly advocate that the Chantry has a stellar record in regards to public perception of mages though. Up until Justinia at least.

The Chantry routinely tells people that magic is evil and a mages are cursed by the Maker. I have yet to see any cleric with a basic understanding of the Circle or magic in general.

Well that is part of the problem. Minus the Divine, the clerics need an attitude adjustment. And if they are going to preach about magic, they at least need to be fair and explain that while it is dangerous, magic also have the potential for so much good.

[Icy Magebane]

Bardox9 wrote...

The Chantry routinely tells people that magic is evil and a mages are cursed by the Maker. I have yet to see any cleric with a basic understanding of the Circle or magic in general.

See, this is the problem I had with the post you made regarding the study of demonology.  The Chantry has been at odds with mages since the Tevinters ruled Thedas.  Why would they be interesting in helping mages overcome one of the primary reasons used to justify imprisoning them?

[Hellion Rex]

Icy Magebane wrote...

Bardox9 wrote...

The Chantry routinely tells people that magic is evil and a mages are cursed by the Maker. I have yet to see any cleric with a basic understanding of the Circle or magic in general.

See, this is the problem I had with the post you made regarding the study of demonology.  The Chantry has been at odds with mages since the Tevinters ruled Thedas.  Why would they be interesting in helping mages overcome one of the primary reasons used to justify imprisoning them?

Justinia cared. And she runs the Chantry, so I think we might find some unexpected help in that regard.

[Icy Magebane]

eluvianix wrote...

Justinia cared. And she runs the Chantry, so I think we might find some unexpected help in that regard.

I guess... sometimes it only takes one visionary to get the ball rolling.  We'll see what happens.

[TK514]

eluvianix wrote...

TK514 wrote...

Bardox9 wrote...

SgtSteel91 wrote...

What the Komandor is proposing is that as soon as a person, usually a kid, shows to have magic potential they kill him/her. And you keep killing those with magic potential as soon as they spring up for eternity.

Templars killing children... can't imagine why the Chantry wouldn't like that image in peoples heads when they talk about "the love of the Maker" can you?

If they really hated Mages, they've had over a thousand years to teach people that Mages, even children, are worthy of death.  With that kind of time to indoctrinate, it wouldn't matter what age the Mage was, they'd be viewed as monsters to be destroyed.

But you can hardly advocate that the Chantry has a stellar record in regards to public perception of mages though. Up until Justinia at least.

There is a vast gulf between 'Mages abused the Makers Gift and screwed up the world once, so need to be carefully watched now' and 'Everyone demonstrating magical ability is a creature of unspeakable evil and must be killed immediately'.  Both paths were well within the Chantry's ability to teach, and they chose, and continue to choose, the former.  No, they don't teach 'Mages are just like everyone else, so love and cherish them', but they also aren't 'BURN THE WITCH'.  If there's a problem with the Chantry's teachings on Mages, it is that it's very easy for the average adherent to associate 'Mage' in general with 'Tevinter Magister', and the White Chantry definitely has a hate-on for Tevinter.

[Bardox9]

Icy Magebane wrote...

Bardox9 wrote...

The Chantry routinely tells people that magic is evil and a mages are cursed by the Maker. I have yet to see any cleric with a basic understanding of the Circle or magic in general.

See, this is the problem I had with the post you made regarding the study of demonology.  The Chantry has been at odds with mages since the Tevinters ruled Thedas.  Why would they be interesting in helping mages overcome one of the primary reasons used to justify imprisoning them?

The Chantry wouldn't be interested. It would weaken their power in Thedas. The... let's call them the "uninformed" turn to the Chantry for salvation. If the mages had a rune or a tonic that could keep out demons the masses would be looking for salvation elsewhere.

When I suggest a reform to the Circle, I don't suggest running it by the Divine, or any of the clerics for that matter, first. They don't know and don't want to know enough about magic to make such decisions. That is why I keep it between Mage and Templar. When the conversation turns absentee father figures, I would love to hear what the chantry has to say. On mystical matters I would rather listen to a Genlock than a cleric.