1238 réponses à ce sujet

[dragonflight288]

That doesn't seem like a good idea. The threats mages pose are becoming abominations and abusing their power (blood magic)

Not to mention, its not like mages in DA can just wait until they're ready to take the test. Demons won't wait and they'll prey on the weak mages and steal their body. I've played through that quest so I know what you mean... But its just different. The fact that demons are the biggest threat means that initiates can't wait and will need to be strong enough OR face tranquility.

And the Harrowing does such a wonderful job preventing these? It hasn't been effective in the two games we've played thus far.

Eluvianix is right that demons, or the more powerful ones in the hierarchy at least, prey upon human emotions, your desire, your pride, you weaknesses as it were. If you cannot recognize your weaknesses and where they'll tempt you, you are that much easier to possess.

Rather than face a demon, unprepared and taken from your bed in the middle of the night, I believe it would be better to have mages go into this test at full strength, but with no knowledge on what they'll face, only that it's part of their own potential. It may or may not be pretty or ugly, but it'll be part of you, and that will be far more enlightening than what the Harrowing does.

[dragonflight288]

Icy Magebane wrote...

As much as I liked Kingdoms of Amalur, I'm going to have to agree that their rituals can't apply to Dragon Age. The risks involved in magic in the DA universe are just too great to ignore or try to circumvent...

*shrug* Like I said, it was only an idea. I just think that if a method could be devised that allowed mages to face an aspect of themselves rather than a demon in the middle of the night during a test that is purposefully kept from you until the very moment you take it would be more beneficial overall.

Again, I understand that magic is very different between KoA and DA, and the inherent risks are also very different, but the Harrowing hasn't proven reliable for what it's supposed to do in both games.

[Icy Magebane]

dragonflight288 wrote...
Rather than face a demon, unprepared and taken from your bed in the middle of the night, I believe it would be better to have mages go into this test at full strength, but with no knowledge on what they'll face, only that it's part of their own potential. It may or may not be pretty or ugly, but it'll be part of you, and that will be far more enlightening than what the Harrowing does.

So what happens if you fail?  Tranquility or death?  With the Harrowing, you get possessed and so they kill you... or you can not take it and get tranquilized.

Let me just add that it's good to think outside the box.  It's just that DA magic has this horrible downside that seems to prevent most solutions from working...  or at least it casts doubt on their effectiveness.  Unfortunately, this downside always has to enter into any proposal to fixing the Circles.

Modifié par Icy Magebane, 13 novembre 2013 - 06:04 .

[Hellion Rex]

Icy Magebane wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...
Rather than face a demon, unprepared and taken from your bed in the middle of the night, I believe it would be better to have mages go into this test at full strength, but with no knowledge on what they'll face, only that it's part of their own potential. It may or may not be pretty or ugly, but it'll be part of you, and that will be far more enlightening than what the Harrowing does.

So what happens if you fail?  Tranquility or death?  With the Harrowing, you get possessed and so they kill you... or you can not take it and get tranquilized.

He said that the test was lethal, so if you fail, you die. Just the same as if the Templars had done it.

Modifié par eluvianix, 13 novembre 2013 - 06:03 .

[Bardox9]

SgtSteel91 wrote...

Oh, why don't Mages know what exactly the Harrowing is until the last minute, exactly? Tell them straight up, "you're going into the Fade to face demons and if you fail the Templars will kill you. So make sure you're prepared for it." That will give the Mages a hell of a motivation to steel themselves against demon possession.

For the same reason a mugger doesn't tell their victim ahead of time that they are going to be mugged. A demon isn't going to alert a mage that it is going to be assaulting them. A demon won't appear and say "Pardon me but if you don't mind... Thursday night when you goto sleep I am going to rape your soul. Be ready." They are not that considerate. Once a mage has completed their training, they have to be able to do this without warning.

Modifié par Bardox9, 13 novembre 2013 - 06:05 .

[Icy Magebane]

eluvianix wrote...

He said that the test was lethal, so if you fail, you die. Just the same as if the Templars had done it.

Ugh... that's kind of embarassing that I missed that... I was probably distracted or something...   Plus, I played the game myself so there's really no excuse...

Modifié par Icy Magebane, 13 novembre 2013 - 06:07 .

[Hellion Rex]

Icy Magebane wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

He said that the test was lethal, so if you fail, you die. Just the same as if the Templars had done it.

Ugh... that's kind of embarassing that I missed that... I was probably distracted or something...

Mhmmm...

[Fredward]

How is this not the usual templar rationale? Greater good yada yada. Turning the Circle into a mandatory boarding school (where you die if you fail) for all mages is at least different from the current status quo.

[dragonflight288]

Icy Magebane wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...
Rather than face a demon, unprepared and taken from your bed in the middle of the night, I believe it would be better to have mages go into this test at full strength, but with no knowledge on what they'll face, only that it's part of their own potential. It may or may not be pretty or ugly, but it'll be part of you, and that will be far more enlightening than what the Harrowing does.

So what happens if you fail?  Tranquility or death?  With the Harrowing, you get possessed and so they kill you... or you can not take it and get tranquilized.

In KoA at least, the test is still very dangerous and potentially lethal.

I don't have all the answers about if you fail and still live, since I'm mainly basing this idea off of a completely different franchise, and even in that game they weren't quite sure how it happened since the magic shaped the whole ritual on its own and they simply guided its use to make the initiate face their own potential.

I suppose it may be possible if such a method could be devised, it would also be possible to change it in such a way that you never take the same test twice. If you take it, fail but survive, you can recover and train, take it again, and face a completely different test that also is an aspect of your potential.

I say this because people are very complicated persons with very complicated emotions. No one person's state of mind or being...well, no mentally healthy people that is, is focused on a single aspect. Some people have better control over their emotions and can think more logically. But those same people may also be prone to panic if things don't go their way, or they may be so used to success that when things fail that they are more given to depression than another person. Heck, even intelligence can't be measured. Some people may be highly educated at presigious schools like Harvard or Oxford, but take away all their luxeries and have them apply their intelligence to survive on the streets of a major city or in the middle of nowhere (Permanent camping without any pre-made tools, as it were) and those same people may be completely clueless on what to do compared to someone who has more worldly experience but less education, so to speak.

I'll use myself as an example. I play chess regularly, and I like to think I have a higher-than average skill level. I can talk with my opponent or members of the chess team with great ease, I can make small-talk even with members I don't know that well, but put me in a party or large group of people and I'll most likely hang out in a corner and watch everyone socialize while I mentally berate myself for my lack of social ability as my social skills actually differ based on my environment, and with it comes much more complicated emotions like self-doubt vs confidence or more flirty vs shy, but all are still parts of me.

EDIT: Ah, eluvianix already mentioned the lethality part for me.

Modifié par dragonflight288, 13 novembre 2013 - 06:14 .

[SgtSteel91]

Bardox9 wrote...

For the same reason a mugger doesn't tell their victim ahead of time that they are going to be mugged. A demon isn't going to alert a mage that it is going to be assaulting them. A demon won't appear and say "Pardon me but if you don't mind... Thursday night when you goto sleep I am going to rape your soul. Be ready." They are not that considerate. Once a mage has completed their training, they have to be able to do this without warning.

But what about self-defense classes? You can get mugged at any time but you can still train to not get stabbed when it happens. Should'nt Mages be trained to control their emotions as well as their magic abilities?

[dragonflight288]

SgtSteel91 wrote...

Bardox9 wrote...

For the same reason a mugger doesn't tell their victim ahead of time that they are going to be mugged. A demon isn't going to alert a mage that it is going to be assaulting them. A demon won't appear and say "Pardon me but if you don't mind... Thursday night when you goto sleep I am going to rape your soul. Be ready." They are not that considerate. Once a mage has completed their training, they have to be able to do this without warning.

But what about self-defense classes? You can get mugged at any time but you can still train to not get stabbed when it happens. Should'nt Mages be trained to control their emotions as well as their magic abilities?

They already do that. Play the mage origin and watch the enchanters train the apprentices. The one with teaching an apprentice how to control the fire goes like this.

Enchanter: You must control the fire, steady, you don't want to lose control as that's what causes most of the injuries.
Apprentice: Injuries!?! (fire is going out of control)
Enchanter: Steady! The flames react to your emotions, you must calm yourself before-
Apprentice: AHHH! (sets himself on fire before a frost spell is cast on him.)
Enchanter: .....you know, in my experience, flint and tinder work just as well. Maybe we should start with that.

Also later on in the library, the enchanter training a mage about the Fade Shield spell.

Enchanter: If I had put all my power behind that, you would've been obliterated. I am not your enemy, fear is your enemy.

[Icy Magebane]

@dragonflight288 - Eh.... you're making me want to play KoA again... xD I'm feeling nostalgic for magic that isn't a curse.

[Bardox9]

Defeating yourself and defeating a demon are not the same. Just because you can kick your own a** doesn't mean you can survive a fight with The Punisher. The Harrowing pits them against a demon, because a demon is what they will be defending themselves against their entire life. "Evil Twin" is not the same.

Modifié par Bardox9, 13 novembre 2013 - 06:23 .

[Hellion Rex]

Bardox9 wrote...

Defeating yourself and defeating a demon are not the same. Just because you can kick your own a** doesn't mean you can survive a fight with The Punisher. The Harrowing pits them against a demon, because a demon is what they will be defending themselves against their entire life. "Evil Twin" is not the same.

And yet a demon preys on a targets emotions to possess them. Master your emotions and baser instincts, lower the chances of being possessed unwillingly. Not to say that this method is fullproof, but it could lower the percentages nonetheless.

[dragonflight288]

Icy Magebane wrote...

@dragonflight288 - Eh.... you're making me want to play KoA again... xD I'm feeling nostalgic for magic that isn't a curse.

Huzzah!

[dragonflight288]

eluvianix wrote...

Bardox9 wrote...

Defeating yourself and defeating a demon are not the same. Just because you can kick your own a** doesn't mean you can survive a fight with The Punisher. The Harrowing pits them against a demon, because a demon is what they will be defending themselves against their entire life. "Evil Twin" is not the same.

And yet a demon preys on a targets emotions to possess them. Master your emotions and baser instincts, lower the chances of being possessed unwillingly. Not to say that this method is fullproof, but it could lower the percentages nonetheless.

Those higher up in the hierarchy at least. Rage and Hunger demons seem more likely to use the take you by force method, and that requires combat training...something Scholia Arcana had all initiates train extensively for years anyway for before being allowed to take the test.

Either way, it's not a foolproof method, but I think it'll be far better a method than the Harrowing.

[Icy Magebane]

eluvianix wrote...

Bardox9 wrote...

Defeating yourself and defeating a demon are not the same. Just because you can kick your own a** doesn't mean you can survive a fight with The Punisher. The Harrowing pits them against a demon, because a demon is what they will be defending themselves against their entire life. "Evil Twin" is not the same.

And yet a demon preys on a targets emotions to possess them. Master your emotions and baser instincts, lower the chances of being possessed unwillingly. Not to say that this method is fullproof, but it could lower the percentages nonetheless.

Actually, I think that dragonflight288 might have been on to something.  If the Harrowing were replaced by a non-lethal trial to face your potential, and the Circle itself was dedicated to teaching mages to master their emotions, actually facing a demon wouldn't be all that important.  It's going to happen one day, and the Templars will be right there to kill you if you are possessed.  As long as you are given to tools to survive an encounter with a demon, you don't actually need to face one to prove that you can resist... after all, completing the Harrowing is not a guarantee that you will never be possessed.  This solution would eliminate the Tranquil entirely, as there would be no way of scaring mages into thinking the Harrowing itself is lethal, with tranquility being the only way to avoid it and survive.

Modifié par Icy Magebane, 13 novembre 2013 - 06:35 .

[Hellion Rex]

dragonflight288 wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Bardox9 wrote...

Defeating yourself and defeating a demon are not the same. Just because you can kick your own a** doesn't mean you can survive a fight with The Punisher. The Harrowing pits them against a demon, because a demon is what they will be defending themselves against their entire life. "Evil Twin" is not the same.

And yet a demon preys on a targets emotions to possess them. Master your emotions and baser instincts, lower the chances of being possessed unwillingly. Not to say that this method is fullproof, but it could lower the percentages nonetheless.

Those higher up in the hierarchy at least. Rage and Hunger demons seem more likely to use the take you by force method, and that requires combat training...something Scholia Arcana had all initiates train extensively for years anyway for before being allowed to take the test.

Either way, it's not a foolproof method, but I think it'll be far better a method than the Harrowing.

In the grand scheme of things, I feel like you do not really hear about hunger or rage demons turning into abominations that often, unless you are of a higher tier like DG mentioned, like Retribution or Remorse. You often hear more about pride or desire demons being crafty enough to prey on a target's emotions. I feel like the Harrowing is designed to deal with those more insidious demons.

[Bardox9]

Only thing I liked about the Kirkwall circle was the courtyard with the shops. Anyone could go there and browse the wares or just mingle. Would like to see that in all circles. Ferelden didn't have that.

[Lord Raijin]

As a pro Mage I too support the Circle.

Xilizhra wrote...
Let the mages run it and the templars guarding the Circles themselves, abolish Tranquility and Annulment, and we might be able to start something.

I was against the Rite of Tranquility up until I read the amulet information on Codex:Tranquility that you can purchase from one of the vendors in Lowtown. Not every mage is fit to be a mage. Some are too frangle minded to be one, and is easily frighten, especially when they're experiencing daily nightmares. Orana's health started to decay as she was afraid to sleep because of the nightmates she was having at the age of 5 years old. At any given moment Demons could very well take an advantage of her most vulnerable state, and therefour at the age of 11 she asked the First Enchanter to be made tranquil, and the request was granted. After the Rite her health return and she was able to sleep again without the nightmares. She excelled in her education at rune crafting and enchantment.

For some people the Rite of Tranqulity is blessing. It is not all that bad.

I cannot support the abolishment of Tranquility when it helps people like Orana.

Edited... go watch this video: I Hear Voices - A Story on Schizophrenia and then try to think about what the Mages has to go through when demons are trying to lure themselves into the mortal realms by trying to make mages to become weak and fragle so they can become an easy target for posession.

Go read what David Gaider has to say about the segregation between lore and gameplay. http://dgaider.tumbl...ssion-unlike-in

Modifié par Lord Raijin, 13 novembre 2013 - 07:23 .

[Hellion Rex]

Lord Raijin wrote...

As a pro Mage I too support the Circle.

Xilizhra wrote...
Let the mages run it and the templars guarding the Circles themselves, abolish Tranquility and Annulment, and we might be able to start something.

I was against the Rite of Tranquility up until I read the amulet information on Codex:Tranquility that you can purchase from one of the vendors in Lowtown. Not every mage is fit to be a mage. Some are too frangle minded to be one, and is easily frighten, especially when they're experiencing daily nightmares. Orana's health started to decay as she was afraid to sleep because of the nightmates she was having at the age of 5 years old. At any given moment Demons could very well take an advantage of her most vulnerable state, and therefour at the age of 11 she asked the First Enchanter to be made tranquil, and the request was granted. After the Rite her health return and she was able to sleep again without the nightmares. She excelled in her education at rune crafting and enchantment.

For some people the Rite of Tranqulity is blessing. It is not all that bad.

I cannot support the abolishment of Tranquility when it helps people Orana's situation.

When I personally speak about Tranquility, I am talking about the forced kind, not a situation such as this. This is an obvious exception. As hinted in Asunder, hopefully we can find a way to strip a person of their magic without having to go to this extreme.

[Lord Raijin]

eluvianix wrote...
When I personally speak about Tranquility, I am talking about the forced kind, not a situation such as this. This is an obvious exception. As hinted in Asunder, hopefully we can find a way to strip a person of their magic without having to go to this extreme.

I have no problem with involuntary Tranquility for as long as it's done in a legal fashion.

[Icy Magebane]

Lord Raijin wrote...

eluvianix wrote...
When I personally speak about Tranquility, I am talking about the forced kind, not a situation such as this. This is an obvious exception. As hinted in Asunder, hopefully we can find a way to strip a person of their magic without having to go to this extreme.

I have no problem with involuntary Tranquility for as long as it's done in a legal fashion.

Why would Tranquility be a more appropriate punishment than a standard death sentence?  Since the Rite of Tranquility is already legal, I assume you are talking about using it as a punishment.

Modifié par Icy Magebane, 13 novembre 2013 - 07:47 .

[snackrat]

I think the Circle is a good start. It's corrupt, and heavily favours templars currently, but I think the system needs to be fixed, not debunked.
Proper education will always be an important part of allowing mages to be accepted in Thedas. Perhaps it should be like a boarding school - allow visitation for mages, and after they pass their Harrowing (an extreme test, but the only one that truly tests your willpower in a place it can be monitored) and are declared full mages, allow them more freedoms. Allow them to move into their own homes, start businesses, travel, and so on.
I still think mages should be required to 'check in' or report to a nearby Chantry on a regular basis - it shouldn't disrupt their lives but means if a mage's plans go awry it'll be noticed. They should probably also not be allowed to have titles, since that is how the Tevinter Imperium started - people turned to blood to get more influence, and those in power had to as well just to keep it.

[Lord Raijin]

Icy Magebane wrote...
Why would Tranquility be a more appropriate punishment than a standard death sentence?  Since the Rite of Tranquility is already legal, I assume you are talking about using it as a punishment.

Criminal mages are far more useful alive than dead. They can become an asset to the Circle after being made Tranquil with runecrafting and enchanting things. They can do things that mages can't like dealing with lyrium.

The Circle needs income coming in to survive, and the Tranquils are perfect when it comes to selling things to make money for the Circle.