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I support the Circle


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#526
Hellion Rex

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Medhia Nox wrote...

@eluvianix: And, for myself, I wouldn't use it as a reason to lock mages up (which I think is why people get defensive) - but I would use it as a reason to pass many laws against the use of dangerous magics and zero tolerance penalties against abuses of said magics.

Why the Chantry lets just any mage in the Circle learn violent spells is absolutely idiotic. Loyalists only should have access to those spells - and those mages should have been given a specific Circle and been inducted into the order of Templars.


Indeed, I am still unsure why such violent spells like Waking Nightmare, Reanimate Dead, or Walking Bomb are ok. And I do agree that the Templars do need a contingent of mage allies in their Order. It would do a lot to foster more goodwill between the two groups. Loyalists would probably be the first ones inducted.

#527
Lord Raijin

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EmperorSahlertz wrote...
No, they are MORE dangerous.


You've just insulted the Crows.

MisterJB wrote...

Lord Raijin wrote...
Mages are no less dangerous than the mundanes with giant swords (or dual daggers) strapped on their backs with their heavy set of armor.

Of course. I mean, do you remember that time a normal child destroyed a thriving community all by his lonely self?
Wait, that never actually happened. A mage child, on the other hand, did kill more than half of a city and then raised their corpses as his army of undead soldiers and had them kill their families.


If were talking about the incident with Conner... well you can certainly blame his parents for not taking him to the Circle where he can get the proper education to control his magic and to resist demons... instead they hired an inexperienced apostate to secretly tutor him. That is HIGHLY illegal by chantry laws, and they could very well be executed for what they've done.

hhh89 wrote...

@Lord Raijin: regardless of one person's stance on the mage dilemma (if they should be free, leave in Circles, being treated like the saarebaas, etc.) to say that mages aren't more dangerous than armed men is objectively wrong. They are far more powerful, and in a normal situation still at risk of being possessed, while non-mages don't.
The Circle system the Chantry endorsed was meant to protect non-mages to magical threats, and mages from non-mages as well.
That doesn't mean that the Chantry doesn't have interests in keeping mages under their control, though I'd say they're more economical than militaristic. The only time the Chantry might've used mages to their own interests (don't recall if it used them) would be against Tevinter in the EM, since against the qunari it was a necessità to save southern Thedas (and I'd say mages would've been happy to help, since the alternative was living as animals).



I can understand where you're coming from base on what mages are capable of, but the mages are essentially prosecuted for being who they are; mages. No trials no appeals, nothing. They're driven by this very same prosecution by their mundane peers to be dangerous. If you provoke a bear by poking it with a stick a few times eventually the bear will not tolerate the abuse and will imminently retaliate thus becoming dangerous.

The harrowing ritual that the Chantry forces their apprentices to undergo does not prevent them from getting possessed by demons. It is the mages themselves that determine this. Apostates like Morrigan, who never experienced Circle life, had done incredibly well without the supervision of the Chantry, and I can't possibly see her allowing herself to be possessed by a low some demon no matter how hard they try.

On chapter 2 in Asunder speaks volume regarding reasons behind the Chantry having such high interests in the mages, and why they insist on imprisoning them. They still blame the mages of today for what happen in the Golden City. Blaming them for what the Tevinter Magisters had done, and how the Maker cursed them thus becoming the first darkspawn. This is the perfect propaganda to spread fear
 and to gain support from the public. This is the curse that they've been blabbing over.

#528
Hellion Rex

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Lord Raijin wrote...

On chapter 2 in Asunder speaks volume regarding reasons behind the Chantry having such high interests in the mages, and why they insist on imprisoning them. They still blame the mages of today for what happen in the Golden City. Blaming them for what the Tevinter Magisters had done, and how the Maker cursed them thus becoming the first darkspawn. This is the perfect propaganda to spread fear
 and to gain support from the public. This is the curse that they've been blabbing over.


What you are talking about was from a man who tried to kill the Divine. Have you even finished the book yet? Justinia backs up her words with what she does in the end.

#529
Lord Raijin

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Medhia Nox wrote...

@Lord Raijin: So, if I presented you with the real world problem of fighting a man with a sword or a man with a flamethrower... which would you rather fight?

Do people "really" believe this argument, or is this one of those things a side cannot accept because it feels like conceding a point?


The man with a sword will most likley (depending on the situation) win while the man with a flamethrower will lose simply over the fact that they're limited to amount of fuel that they have to continue igniting the flame, and with a heavy fuel pack over their backs prevents them from moving fast. A flamethrower is a close rang type of weapon so the man would need to be at close range. 

Flamethrowers in World War Two

When the juice runs out... then what? The man with the sword will take an avantage of the situation and will charge at the man with the useless flamethrower.

#530
Lord Raijin

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eluvianix wrote...

Lord Raijin wrote...

On chapter 2 in Asunder speaks volume regarding reasons behind the Chantry having such high interests in the mages, and why they insist on imprisoning them. They still blame the mages of today for what happen in the Golden City. Blaming them for what the Tevinter Magisters had done, and how the Maker cursed them thus becoming the first darkspawn. This is the perfect propaganda to spread fear
 and to gain support from the public. This is the curse that they've been blabbing over.


What you are talking about was from a man who tried to kill the Divine. Have you even finished the book yet? Justinia backs up her words with what she does in the end.


I have not read the entire book yet. Yes he did tried to kill the Divine only because he was driven by it due to years of systematic abuse that cause overwhelming frustration. The man made a very valid point prior to the assassination of the Divine.

#531
Hellion Rex

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Lord Raijin wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Lord Raijin wrote...

On chapter 2 in Asunder speaks volume regarding reasons behind the Chantry having such high interests in the mages, and why they insist on imprisoning them. They still blame the mages of today for what happen in the Golden City. Blaming them for what the Tevinter Magisters had done, and how the Maker cursed them thus becoming the first darkspawn. This is the perfect propaganda to spread fear
 and to gain support from the public. This is the curse that they've been blabbing over.


What you are talking about was from a man who tried to kill the Divine. Have you even finished the book yet? Justinia backs up her words with what she does in the end.


I have not read the entire book yet. Yes he did tried to kill the Divine only because he was driven by it due to years of systematic abuse that cause overwhelming frustration. The man made a very valid point prior to the assassination of the Divine.

Ok, first of all, please finish the book, before you start making assumptions just on the chapters you have read.
Remember, that was one man, living at the heart of Templar power in Thedas. He hardly represents the other 13+ Circles in the rest of the Andrastian countries.

#532
dragonflight288

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Why the Chantry lets just any mage in the Circle learn violent spells is absolutely idiotic. Loyalists only should have access to those spells - and those mages should have been given a specific Circle and been inducted into the order of Templars.


Because the Chantry and the templars have used mages in the past for exalted marches and kings of nations sometimes call upon mages to act as soldiers during times of war.

Modifié par dragonflight288, 17 novembre 2013 - 06:06 .


#533
dragonflight288

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Lord Raijin wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Lord Raijin wrote...

On chapter 2 in Asunder speaks volume regarding reasons behind the Chantry having such high interests in the mages, and why they insist on imprisoning them. They still blame the mages of today for what happen in the Golden City. Blaming them for what the Tevinter Magisters had done, and how the Maker cursed them thus becoming the first darkspawn. This is the perfect propaganda to spread fear
 and to gain support from the public. This is the curse that they've been blabbing over.


What you are talking about was from a man who tried to kill the Divine. Have you even finished the book yet? Justinia backs up her words with what she does in the end.


I have not read the entire book yet. Yes he did tried to kill the Divine only because he was driven by it due to years of systematic abuse that cause overwhelming frustration. The man made a very valid point prior to the assassination of the Divine.


As one pro-mage to another, I urge you to read and finish the book, and not make claims about a character's motivations before the final chapter. There's a lot that goes on.

#534
Hellion Rex

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dragonflight288 wrote...

Lord Raijin wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Lord Raijin wrote...

On chapter 2 in Asunder speaks volume regarding reasons behind the Chantry having such high interests in the mages, and why they insist on imprisoning them. They still blame the mages of today for what happen in the Golden City. Blaming them for what the Tevinter Magisters had done, and how the Maker cursed them thus becoming the first darkspawn. This is the perfect propaganda to spread fear
 and to gain support from the public. This is the curse that they've been blabbing over.


What you are talking about was from a man who tried to kill the Divine. Have you even finished the book yet? Justinia backs up her words with what she does in the end.


I have not read the entire book yet. Yes he did tried to kill the Divine only because he was driven by it due to years of systematic abuse that cause overwhelming frustration. The man made a very valid point prior to the assassination of the Divine.


As one pro-mage to another, I urge you to read and finish the book, and not make claims about a character's motivations before the final chapter. There's a lot that goes on.

Stealing my thunder!:bandit:

#535
dragonflight288

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eluvianix wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

Lord Raijin wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Lord Raijin wrote...

On chapter 2 in Asunder speaks volume regarding reasons behind the Chantry having such high interests in the mages, and why they insist on imprisoning them. They still blame the mages of today for what happen in the Golden City. Blaming them for what the Tevinter Magisters had done, and how the Maker cursed them thus becoming the first darkspawn. This is the perfect propaganda to spread fear
 and to gain support from the public. This is the curse that they've been blabbing over.


What you are talking about was from a man who tried to kill the Divine. Have you even finished the book yet? Justinia backs up her words with what she does in the end.


I have not read the entire book yet. Yes he did tried to kill the Divine only because he was driven by it due to years of systematic abuse that cause overwhelming frustration. The man made a very valid point prior to the assassination of the Divine.


As one pro-mage to another, I urge you to read and finish the book, and not make claims about a character's motivations before the final chapter. There's a lot that goes on.

Stealing my thunder!:bandit:


I don't know what you're talking about....:lol: I'm not Percy Jackson....or Luke Castillon. :D

#536
Hellion Rex

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dragonflight288 wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

Lord Raijin wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Lord Raijin wrote...

On chapter 2 in Asunder speaks volume regarding reasons behind the Chantry having such high interests in the mages, and why they insist on imprisoning them. They still blame the mages of today for what happen in the Golden City. Blaming them for what the Tevinter Magisters had done, and how the Maker cursed them thus becoming the first darkspawn. This is the perfect propaganda to spread fear
 and to gain support from the public. This is the curse that they've been blabbing over.


What you are talking about was from a man who tried to kill the Divine. Have you even finished the book yet? Justinia backs up her words with what she does in the end.


I have not read the entire book yet. Yes he did tried to kill the Divine only because he was driven by it due to years of systematic abuse that cause overwhelming frustration. The man made a very valid point prior to the assassination of the Divine.


As one pro-mage to another, I urge you to read and finish the book, and not make claims about a character's motivations before the final chapter. There's a lot that goes on.

Stealing my thunder!:bandit:


I don't know what you're talking about....:lol: I'm not Percy Jackson....or Luke Castillon. :D

Great book series. Terrible joke.:pinched:

#537
The Elder King

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@Lord Raijin: With my post I didn't say that mages should be locked because they're dangerous. I'm just debating your claim that mages aren't more dangerous than non-mages, and that is one of the main reasons behind the Circle system.
Again, it's obvious that the Chantry has interests in keeping mages under their power (though not all high-ranking members of the Chantry think that way). That doesn't mean that the security of non-mages was one primary concern when the Circles were founded, as well as the security of mages themselves . Remember that at the time the non-mages view mages in a good way, and it wasn't much for the Chantry's propaganda.
Yes, a lot of the fear of mages is based on Tevinter, though it's not like Tevinter is a good example of what mages can do (but is should be noted that a lot of mages are still locked in Circles).

#538
EmperorSahlertz

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Lord Raijin wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Lord Raijin: So, if I presented you with the real world problem of fighting a man with a sword or a man with a flamethrower... which would you rather fight?

Do people "really" believe this argument, or is this one of those things a side cannot accept because it feels like conceding a point?


The man with a sword will most likley (depending on the situation) win while the man with a flamethrower will lose simply over the fact that they're limited to amount of fuel that they have to continue igniting the flame, and with a heavy fuel pack over their backs prevents them from moving fast. A flamethrower is a close rang type of weapon so the man would need to be at close range. 

Flamethrowers in World War Two

When the juice runs out... then what? The man with the sword will take an avantage of the situation and will charge at the man with the useless flamethrower.

Or, you know, the flamethrower armed guy could just conserve his ammo, and just burn the sword armed guy to a crisp when he charges.

#539
The Elder King

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I don't think that the comparison is that fit, since mages aren't limited to close range spells.

#540
Hellion Rex

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hhh89 wrote...

I don't think that the comparison is that fit, since mages aren't limited to close range spells.

Indeed. They can more than likely snap their fingers to set you aflame. Or call lightning down from above. Or use Force magic to crush you with a flick of the fingers. 

#541
HiroVoid

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Or make a puddle of oil for you to slip on.....and then use the flamethrower.

#542
EmperorSahlertz

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Or they could boil your blood, then burn it, then use what little blood your corpse had left to raise it, just to kill it with your own sword.

#543
Hellion Rex

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EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Or they could boil your blood, then burn it, then use what little blood your corpse had left to raise it, just to kill it with your own sword.


Heck, why waste all that extra mana? Just mind blast him, and them make commit suicide. 

#544
TheKomandorShepard

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and yet lost their every fight łahahaha

#545
Lotion Soronarr

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eluvianix wrote...
Indeed, I am still unsure why such violent spells like Waking Nightmare, Reanimate Dead, or Walking Bomb are ok.


Because gameplay.


Lord Raijin wrote...
I can understand where you're coming from
base on what mages are capable of, but the mages are essentially
prosecuted for being who they are; mages. No trials no appeals, nothing.
They're driven by this very same prosecution by their mundane peers to
be dangerous. If you provoke a bear by poking it with a stick a few
times eventually the bear will not tolerate the abuse and will
imminently retaliate thus becoming dangerous.


There is no trial because there is no crime. Segragation and the Circles are not punishment.
Not to mention that any trial would be a waste of time.

They are dangerous - "poking" or no. It's more like mundanes trying to get a bear into a zoo so he could stay alive and they would be out of danger. But the brear reacts violently to such attempts. And when he mauls a man he gets shot. And then the other bears get upset.

#546
Hellion Rex

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Lotion Soronnar wrote...

eluvianix wrote...
Indeed, I am still unsure why such violent spells like Waking Nightmare, Reanimate Dead, or Walking Bomb are ok.


Because gameplay.

I get that. But I am referring to the lore itself. 
If they were going to ban blood magic, why not these other equally violent spells. 

#547
The Elder King

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I think the reason they banned blood magic and not other dangerous spells is because the latter could be blocked/neutralized by templars' abilities. Blood magic not.

#548
Hellion Rex

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hhh89 wrote...

I think the reason they banned blood magic and not other dangerous spells is because the latter could be blocked/neutralized by templars' abilities. Blood magic not.

Evangeline was able to hold out against it temporarily, the second time that the blood Mage used it against her. My bet is that Templars can block blood magic, it's just a hell of a lot harder to do. 

#549
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eluvianix wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

I think the reason they banned blood magic and not other dangerous spells is because the latter could be blocked/neutralized by templars' abilities. Blood magic not.

Evangeline was able to hold out against it temporarily, the second time that the blood Mage used it against her. My bet is that Templars can block blood magic, it's just a hell of a lot harder to do. 


Didn't know that. Thanks for the info :)
Considering that it's very difficult for a templar to block it, it might be enough for the Chantry to ban it. And the fear of mind control and more risk of possession (I believe it was stated in WoT) aren't likely eliminated by the fact that some templars could resist blood magic.

Modifié par hhh89, 17 novembre 2013 - 11:42 .


#550
DKJaigen

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eluvianix wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

I think the reason they banned blood magic and not other dangerous spells is because the latter could be blocked/neutralized by templars' abilities. Blood magic not.

Evangeline was able to hold out against it temporarily, the second time that the blood Mage used it against her. My bet is that Templars can block blood magic, it's just a hell of a lot harder to do. 


Nope. the first time was a mana based spell. she disrupted that but as soon as the mage used bloodmagic she was nearly killed and she would have been killed if the mage didnt believe she was killed instead of just injured and pressed the attack. templar so far seem to have no known resistance to bloodmagic this is supported in lore and gameplay.