1238 réponses à ce sujet

[vpacheco1984]

The Circles as they are now or rather were, are evil places that allow and even encourage horrible abuse of mages. So the System needs to ripped apart along with the Chantry and the templar order.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Ieldra2 wrote...

In Exile wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote..
I don't necessarily disagree with a ban on pragmatic grounds. I do mind the ideology behind it though, and as long as the ban is used to keep mages oppressed, and a side aspect of blood magic is used to track mages in order to keep them oppressed, I don't see any reason why mages shouldn't use it in their interests, too.

 

Given its general perception in Thedas, I think BM being used by mages in their uprising against the templars has to be *very* careful. It's kind of like ceeding ground in the propaganda war. I mean, there's obviously the option of using and denying, but then getting found out again feeds into the templar propaganda claims. 

I think that's a first question for the mages: how they want to fight the war. At the end of the day, I wouldn't be surprised if the Veil tears get blamed on them more than any other group. 

I agree that it's probably prudent to avoid blood magic where at all possible. At the same time, on the propaganda front, just say "We don't do mind control, we don't do demon summoning, we don't do human sacrifice" (which will hopefully remain true) and play the phylactery card against the templars. 

I also agree that templars and other people suspicious of mages well will blame the Veil tears on them, but I hope that will become less of a problem after mages are seen to fight against the demon invasion.   

LoL do you even know when it comes about reputation mages don't have chance in this battle and never had as i said templars are heroes in  the eyes of thedas just compare rumors what peoples spread about templars to rumors about mages in first da. 

Second first naive is thinking that mages help will change something they fight with qunari and they fight during the blights and after fifth blight nothing was changed.

[dragonflight288]

hhh89 wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

I think the reason they banned blood magic and not other dangerous spells is because the latter could be blocked/neutralized by templars' abilities. Blood magic not.

But they haven't banned all aspects of blood magic, because they still use phylacteries.

Phylacteries can't be used for controlling the mind of mages. But I'd say the major reason why they didn't ban their use is because it suits their interests (they couldn't keep track of mages that escape without them).

Anatomical studies also don't allow people to control the minds of others, but the chantry bans, if not outright suppresses it and quite harshly as well.

Anything and everything to do with blood falls under the definition of blood magic according to the Chantry. Heck, even mages like Finn who are perfectly happy in the Circle technically do blood magic (Witch Hunt) even though the blood itself wasn't powering the spell, but was merely a component in finding the Lights of Arlathan.

[The Elder King]

dragonflight288 wrote...

hhh89 wrote...
Phylacteries can't be used for controlling the mind of mages. But I'd say the major reason why they didn't ban their use is because it suits their interests (they couldn't keep track of mages that escape without them).

Anatomical studies also don't allow people to control the minds of others, but the chantry bans, if not outright suppresses it and quite harshly as well. 
Anything and everything to do with blood falls under the definition of blood magic according to the Chantry. Heck, even mages like Finn who are perfectly happy in the Circle technically do blood magic (Witch Hunt) even though the blood itself wasn't powering the spell, but was merely a component in finding the Lights of Arlathan. 

Didn't I say that (at least an important one) the reason why Chantry uses phylacterie despite it fits their definition of blood magic is because they have interests in using them? I know about the ban of anatomical studies, and I disagree with it. While they should be careful on the location (a place with a thin Veil would be a bad idea), they should study bodies, because it could help in various fields. The Qun would probably allow it, since they have advanced medicine.
I can't talk about Finn since I didn't play the dlc. How does the spell work, exactly, and what is required other than blood?

[EmperorSahlertz]

dragonflight288 wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

I think the reason they banned blood magic and not other dangerous spells is because the latter could be blocked/neutralized by templars' abilities. Blood magic not.

But they haven't banned all aspects of blood magic, because they still use phylacteries.

Phylacteries can't be used for controlling the mind of mages. But I'd say the major reason why they didn't ban their use is because it suits their interests (they couldn't keep track of mages that escape without them).

Anatomical studies also don't allow people to control the minds of others, but the chantry bans, if not outright suppresses it and quite harshly as well.

Anything and everything to do with blood falls under the definition of blood magic according to the Chantry. Heck, even mages like Finn who are perfectly happy in the Circle technically do blood magic (Witch Hunt) even though the blood itself wasn't powering the spell, but was merely a component in finding the Lights of Arlathan.

In a world where leaving your corpses lying around is like an invitation for an undead invasion, there is good reason to restrict anatomical research.
Then of course there is the fact that most Andrastian prefer to burn the bodies of their dead, so there aren't even many corpses to study to begin with.

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 17 novembre 2013 - 09:01 .

[lil yonce]

I like the idea of templar phylacteries used to combat blood magic. Templar blood is mixed with lyrium, so perhaps bottling it, tapping its power, and forming strategies around their use can allow templars to battle blood mages on more equal footing.

[The Elder King]

@EmperorSahlertz: I agree that the research should be done carefully, and even restricted. But this doesn't mean that they shoud completely ban it.

[Hellion Rex]

DKJaigen wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

I think the reason they banned blood magic and not other dangerous spells is because the latter could be blocked/neutralized by templars' abilities. Blood magic not.

Evangeline was able to hold out against it temporarily, the second time that the blood Mage used it against her. My bet is that Templars can block blood magic, it's just a hell of a lot harder to do. 

Nope. the first time was a mana based spell. she disrupted that but as soon as the mage used bloodmagic she was nearly killed and she would have been killed if the mage didnt believe she was killed instead of just injured and pressed the attack. templar so far seem to have no known resistance to bloodmagic this is supported in lore and gameplay.

First attack was mana. He used flame to try to attack the Divine.
Second, was use of blood, once Evangeline cut him with her sword. He created a blast of force to break her shield.
Third, use of blood. He created flame. She saw it coming and was able to try and defend herself.
"Evangeline felt the blast of heat before the flames struck her. She only barely managed to summon her aura once again, and this time it held."
She resisted the blood magic attack, briefly.

Modifié par eluvianix, 17 novembre 2013 - 09:35 .

[Hellion Rex]

hhh89 wrote...

@EmperorSahlertz: I agree that the research should be done carefully, and even restricted. But this doesn't mean that they shoud completely ban it.

Agreed, practical study of it gave us the Litany of Adralla. If the Chantry were to sanction official study of it, under VERY CAREFUL supervision, who knows what the research might bring us.

[dragonflight288]

hhh89 wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

hhh89 wrote...
Phylacteries can't be used for controlling the mind of mages. But I'd say the major reason why they didn't ban their use is because it suits their interests (they couldn't keep track of mages that escape without them).

Anatomical studies also don't allow people to control the minds of others, but the chantry bans, if not outright suppresses it and quite harshly as well. 
Anything and everything to do with blood falls under the definition of blood magic according to the Chantry. Heck, even mages like Finn who are perfectly happy in the Circle technically do blood magic (Witch Hunt) even though the blood itself wasn't powering the spell, but was merely a component in finding the Lights of Arlathan. 

Didn't I say that (at least an important one) the reason why Chantry uses phylacterie despite it fits their definition of blood magic is because they have interests in using them? I know about the ban of anatomical studies, and I disagree with it. While they should be careful on the location (a place with a thin Veil would be a bad idea), they should study bodies, because it could help in various fields. The Qun would probably allow it, since they have advanced medicine.
I can't talk about Finn since I didn't play the dlc. How does the spell work, exactly, and what is required other than blood?

Fair enough.

As for Finn's spell, he had to take blood from your dalish companion in the DLC (he says if you're a dalish warden that your blood has become too tainted.) You're in the ruins of Cadhalas (later revealed to be a bunch of elves given sanctuary by the dwarves after Arlathan fell, and then they were all killed by the dwarves rather than jeoprodize their alliance with Tevinter.)

You are tracking down eluvians as Morrigan has got possession of one, and you need ancient arlathan artifacts mixed with a shard from the eluvian in the dalish origin, and Finn uses dalish blood as a component to help track down the Lights of Arlathan so he can do the scrying ritual to find all functioning eluvians, and use those to track down Morrigan.

[The Elder King]

Thanks for the explanation. I really don't see the arm with this use of blood. Finn probably doesn't know blood magic. If this is all the knowledge Finn has about blood used in magic, he's not a blood mage.

[Hellion Rex]

hhh89 wrote...

Thanks for the explanation. I really don't see the arm with this use of blood. Finn probably doesn't know blood magic. If this is all the knowledge Finn has about blood used in magic, he's not a blood mage.

Oh, Finn is probably the furthest thing from a blood mage.

[The Elder King]

eluvianix wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

Thanks for the explanation. I really don't see the arm with this use of blood. Finn probably doesn't know blood magic. If this is all the knowledge Finn has about blood used in magic, he's not a blood mage.

Oh, Finn is probably the furthest thing from a blood mage.

Yeah, I remember reading the wikia about him when WH came out. I agree with your opinion.

[Hellion Rex]

hhh89 wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

Thanks for the explanation. I really don't see the arm with this use of blood. Finn probably doesn't know blood magic. If this is all the knowledge Finn has about blood used in magic, he's not a blood mage.

Oh, Finn is probably the furthest thing from a blood mage.

Yeah, I remember reading the wikia about him when WH came out. I agree with your opinion.

IIRC, he even fainted at one point in dialogue when he got hurt in combat.
Edit: Btw, how could you NOT play Witch Hunt? My favorite DLC, other than Awakening.

Modifié par eluvianix, 17 novembre 2013 - 11:05 .

[Lord Raijin]

hhh89 wrote...

@Lord Raijin: With my post I didn't say that mages should be locked because they're dangerous. I'm just debating your claim that mages aren't more dangerous than non-mages, and that is one of the main reasons behind the Circle system.
Again, it's obvious that the Chantry has interests in keeping mages under their power (though not all high-ranking members of the Chantry think that way). That doesn't mean that the security of non-mages was one primary concern when the Circles were founded, as well as the security of mages themselves . Remember that at the time the non-mages view mages in a good way, and it wasn't much for the Chantry's propaganda.
Yes, a lot of the fear of mages is based on Tevinter, though it's not like Tevinter is a good example of what mages can do (but is should be noted that a lot of mages are still locked in Circles).

And I'm trying to prove that mundanes aren't some innocent poodles who needs to be saved by the chantry from the big bad mages. Mundanes may lack of magic, but they have skills and other talents that makes them equally dangerous as the mages. I could only imagine living in a place like Antiva feels like... being dominated by a bunch of psychopaths who would have wouldn't hesitate to murder you, and get away with it as well.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Or, you know, the flamethrower armed
guy could just conserve his ammo, and just burn the sword armed guy to a
crisp when he charges.

Perhabs but the man with a sword could very well easily dodge the flame throwing guy weapon until the fuel vanishes. I can see the flamethrower win if he has the man cornered with nowhere to hide.

[HiroVoid]

I think you're drastically overestimating mundanes. Most mundanes don't know how to use a sword unless they have to get army training because they've been drafted.

[Lord Raijin]

hhh89 wrote...
Phylacteries can't be used for controlling the mind of mages. But I'd say the major reason why they didn't ban their use is because it suits their interests (they couldn't keep track of mages that escape without them).

What about the mabari? They seems to be highly intelligent with a good sense of smell. I can see them aiding their masters in tracking down escaped mage through their scent.

[Hellion Rex]

Lord Raijin wrote...

hhh89 wrote...
Phylacteries can't be used for controlling the mind of mages. But I'd say the major reason why they didn't ban their use is because it suits their interests (they couldn't keep track of mages that escape without them).

What about the mabari? They seems to be highly intelligent with a good sense of smell. I can see them aiding their masters in tracking down escaped mage through their scent.

But that will only work for so long. The phylacteries provide much more accurate tracking information, and if the mage needs to be subdued, then they can cast a spell through the phylactery.

Modifié par eluvianix, 17 novembre 2013 - 11:26 .

[Lord Raijin]

HiroVoid wrote...

I think you're drastically overestimating mundanes. Most mundanes don't know how to use a sword unless they have to get army training because they've been drafted.

Any kind of skill or talent must be accomplished by training, they're no deyning in that. Carver was not drafted when he optained his combat training. If I remember correctly (I haven't played DA2 for some time now) he asked for combat advice from soilders nearby. His father did not help him much because he was too busy training Bethany and Mage Hawke to properly manage their magic talents.

[The Elder King]

@Lord Raijin: I didn't say that non-mages are innocent poddlers, or that they can't be dangerous.
The abilities of a single (skilled) mage are still greater and more dangerous than a single Crow. We have to agree to disagree on the topic of mages being or not more dangerous than non-mages.
As for mabari, they don't allow the same utility of Phylacteries. A mabari can lose a mage. A phylactery doesn't lose the mage.

[Lord Raijin]

eluvianix wrote...

But that will only work for so long. The phylacteries provide much more accurate tracking information, and if the mage needs to be subdued, then they can cast a spell through the phylactery.

I think you've misunderestimated the mabari. If they're intelligent enough to understand and perform complex commands then capturing an escaped mage would be a piece of cake for them.

[Hellion Rex]

Lord Raijin wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

But that will only work for so long. The phylacteries provide much more accurate tracking information, and if the mage needs to be subdued, then they can cast a spell through the phylactery.

I think you've misunderestimated the mabari. If they're intelligent enough to understand and perform complex commands then capturing an escaped mage would be a piece of cake for them.

And when the mage burns the mabari to a crisp? If you do not have a phylactery, templars lose the extra edge with which to hunt down a mage. Blood magic is hard enough for a templar to resist as it is.

[The Elder King]

Lord Raijin wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

But that will only work for so long. The phylacteries provide much more accurate tracking information, and if the mage needs to be subdued, then they can cast a spell through the phylactery.

I think you've misunderestimated the mabari. If they're intelligent enough to understand and perform complex commands then capturing an escaped mage would be a piece of cake for them.

If they're that useful, why the Chantry didn't breed mabari to that purpose. Jowan shown that Circle mages could manage to escape and break their Phylacteries.

[Hellion Rex]

hhh89 wrote...

Lord Raijin wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

But that will only work for so long. The phylacteries provide much more accurate tracking information, and if the mage needs to be subdued, then they can cast a spell through the phylactery.

I think you've misunderestimated the mabari. If they're intelligent enough to understand and perform complex commands then capturing an escaped mage would be a piece of cake for them.

If they're that useful, why the Chantry didn't breed mabari to that purpose. Jowan shown that Circle mages could manage to escape and break their Phylacteries.

But how often do you actually have a chantry initiate and a mage working together? And plus, they had the Warden as well. I think that these sets of circumstances are a bit rare.

[The Elder King]

@eluvianix: I don't think is that common either, in truth. But I don't think mabari might substitute that well phylacteries, as well.