1238 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

1. We can call bull**** on that, since if what Merrill does actually works, then why would no one else know about it? Not even Tevinters who are big on demon association knows about this.

You can, but you have absolutely no basis to do so other than "it doesn't seem like it fits what we know." Also, how do you know Tevinters don't know this?

2. This is already done with phylacteries (which we aren't quite sure how is made yet).

Rather amusing how the blood magic tracking spell is utterly identical to it, no?

3. We have zero cases of blood magic being effective healing magic.

Leandra. Quentin transplanted her head onto a corpse and got the thing to reanimate without need for a demon. Granted, the result didn't survive without his direct magic, but it was nonetheless an impressive feat, and applications like this combined with Creation healing magic could be most intriguing.

[dragonflight288]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

For what point and purpose? So far blood magic has proven effective at one thing, and one thing only, and that is the imprisonment of ancient Darkspawn. Otherwise blood magic has not proven capable of anything that conventional magic can't do.

Possibly sensing demons in someone's blood (though this might just require knowledge of demons). Tracking lost people if you have their blood. Very long-term preservation of damaged tissue. Probably more applications.

1. We can call bull**** on that, since if what Merrill does actually works, then why would no one else know about it? Not even Tevinters who are big on demon association knows about this.
2. This is already done with phylacteries (which we aren't quite sure how is made yet).
3. We have zero cases of blood magic being effective healing magic.

1. We don't know what Tevinter actually does because almost anything associated with them is not discussed unless it's as an example of blood magic or how bad things can get if mages who don't care about the lives beneath them take control of the political system. But we have not heard of Tevinter ever having abomination problems, so they have to have a handle on the situation where other countries do not. 

But the Chantry suppresses, if not outright bans anatomical studies because it's associated with blood magic. Finn says that using Dalish blood in his ritual is a grey area of blood magic, because although the blood is not powering the spell, the fact that blood is being used at all can make it considered to be blood magic by the Chantry and asks the Warden not to say anything. 

It's not unlikely that blood magic can have many passive uses like Merrill does with Kerran, and it qualifies under the Chantry's general rule because blood was used.


2. Evangeline calls phylacteries a form of blood magic, and the devs have also said this. 


3. Not completely true. My Warden and my Hawke both used blood magic to heal to great effect. It amplifies the power of spells. The blood mage simply couldn't heal himself, however, with those same spells. He'd have to use a blood magic spell. Nothing stops him from amplifying the healing power of the creation school to heal others. 

And that's all blood magic was thought to be originally, a way to amplify and enhance the power of other spells, until they started figuring out that certain spells couldonly be cast using blood magic. 

[EmperorSahlertz]

dragonflight288 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

For what point and purpose? So far blood magic has proven effective at one thing, and one thing only, and that is the imprisonment of ancient Darkspawn. Otherwise blood magic has not proven capable of anything that conventional magic can't do.

Possibly sensing demons in someone's blood (though this might just require knowledge of demons). Tracking lost people if you have their blood. Very long-term preservation of damaged tissue. Probably more applications.

1. We can call bull**** on that, since if what Merrill does actually works, then why would no one else know about it? Not even Tevinters who are big on demon association knows about this.
2. This is already done with phylacteries (which we aren't quite sure how is made yet).
3. We have zero cases of blood magic being effective healing magic.

1. We don't know what Tevinter actually does because almost anything associated with them is not discussed unless it's as an example of blood magic or how bad things can get if mages who don't care about the lives beneath them take control of the political system. But we have not heard of Tevinter ever having abomination problems, so they have to have a handle on the situation where other countries do not. 

But the Chantry suppresses, if not outright bans anatomical studies because it's associated with blood magic. Finn says that using Dalish blood in his ritual is a grey area of blood magic, because although the blood is not powering the spell, the fact that blood is being used at all can make it considered to be blood magic by the Chantry and asks the Warden not to say anything. 

It's not unlikely that blood magic can have many passive uses like Merrill does with Kerran, and it qualifies under the Chantry's general rule because blood was used.

Since that Tevinter got the same abomination problems as anyone else, chances are they have no better tools in their prevention than anyone else. We know from Fenris that Abominations certainly happen in Tevinter, since Fenris has faced such Abominations during his servitude to Danarius.
Whatever SOME in the Chantry might have thought of Finn's ritual, the matter of fact is that it was NOT Blood Magic. And something as potent as possession detection is NOT something any nation would suppress or let go of, so the very fact that it is completely unprecedented, simply seems that Merrill's technique isn't foolproof, or even worse doesn't work at all.

dragonflight288 wrote...
2. Evangeline calls phylacteries a form of blood magic, and the devs have also said this. 

And we have a Tranquil, who under no circumstances should be able to cast magic at all, who summons demons through the use of his blood. It would seem that a Tranquil is capable of using blood magic to craft summoning circles, just like he is able to use lyrium to craft runes. This could also indicate that it is the Tranquil who create the phylacteries, since apparently they are already capable of using blood magically.

dragonflight288 wrote...
3. Not completely true. My Warden and my Hawke both used blood magic to heal to great effect. It amplifies the power of spells. The blood mage simply couldn't heal himself, however, with those same spells. He'd have to use a blood magic spell. Nothing stops him from amplifying the healing power of the creation school to heal others. 

And that's all blood magic was thought to be originally, a way to amplify and enhance the power of other spells, until they started figuring out that certain spells couldonly be cast using blood magic. 

Gameplay/story segregation. Besides that is not blood magic being used. That is You using your blood to empower a CREATION spell. So far blood magic has shown zero usability for healing purposes, other than the healing of the mage himself.

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 18 novembre 2013 - 04:33 .

[Xilizhra]

Since that Tevinter got the same abomination problems as anyone else, chances are they have no better tools in their prevention than anyone else. We know from Fenris that Abominations certainly happen in Tevinter, since Fenris has faced such Abominations during his servitude to Danarius.

What's your point? Most abominations are very easy to spot. It's a rare case that they can hide, and it always seems to involve the mage in question inviting the demon in... or their being a pride abomination that can shapeshift, but pride demons are also rare.

And something as potent as possession detection is NOT something any nation would suppress or let go of, so the very fact that it is completely unprecedented, simply seems that Merrill's technique isn't foolproof, or even worse doesn't work at all.

Or the Chantry simply didn't know. Assuming they'd allow it at all, if it does require blood magic.

Gameplay/story segregation. Besides that is not blood magic being used. That is You using your blood to empower a CREATION spell. So far blood magic has shown zero usability for healing purposes, other than the healing of the mage himself.

Aside from what I said earlier.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Xilizhra wrote...

Since that Tevinter got the same abomination problems as anyone else, chances are they have no better tools in their prevention than anyone else. We know from Fenris that Abominations certainly happen in Tevinter, since Fenris has faced such Abominations during his servitude to Danarius.

What's your point? Most abominations are very easy to spot. It's a rare case that they can hide, and it always seems to involve the mage in question inviting the demon in... or their being a pride abomination that can shapeshift, but pride demons are also rare.

The appearance of the Abomination is dependant on the power of the demon in question, and its ultirior motive. And the point was, that even Tevinter, with all their vaunted Blood Magic, still has Abominations. So if even they, are plagued by demons, then why exactly would they let such knowledge pass them by? It doesn't add up. Merrill's technique simply doesn't make sense, in any other way, than her being her usual naive self, believing herself to hold all the answers. I'd be more inclined to trust in Anders' method, since that I can at least see why would work against some demons.

Xilizhra wrote...

And something as potent as possession detection is NOT something any nation would suppress or let go of, so the very fact that it is completely unprecedented, simply seems that Merrill's technique isn't foolproof, or even worse doesn't work at all.

Or the Chantry simply didn't know. Assuming they'd allow it at all, if it does require blood magic.

And why exactly would the amges themselves suddenly have forgotten this technique? As I said, it doesn't add up.

Xilizhra wrote...

Gameplay/story segregation. Besides that is not blood magic being used. That is You using your blood to empower a CREATION spell. So far blood magic has shown zero usability for healing purposes, other than the healing of the mage himself.

Aside from what I said earlier.

What you mentioned earlier was not even a good example of preservation. First of all, it was certainly not a case of healing magic. Secondly the amputated bodyparts were necrotic and falling apart, not exactly the best showcase of "preservation".
So I say again, blood magic does not do anything benign or purposeful, that conventional magic can't aswell.

[Xilizhra]

The appearance of the Abomination is dependant on the power of the demon in question, and its ultirior motive. And the point was, that even Tevinter, with all their vaunted Blood Magic, still has Abominations. So if even they, are plagued by demons, then why exactly would they let such knowledge pass them by? It doesn't add up. Merrill's technique simply doesn't make sense, in any other way, than her being her usual naive self, believing herself to hold all the answers. I'd be more inclined to trust in Anders' method, since that I can at least see why would work against some demons.

It doesn't make abominations stop happening, just allows you to detect them if they're hidden. It's also not dependent on the class of demon as much as you said; even desire and pride demons show up as mutated fleshbags if they weren't taken in by choice, or if the demon can't shapeshift.

And why exactly would the amges themselves suddenly have forgotten this technique? As I said, it doesn't add up.

It might need blood magic.

What you mentioned earlier was not even a good example of preservation. First of all, it was certainly not a case of healing magic. Secondly the amputated bodyparts were necrotic and falling apart, not exactly the best showcase of "preservation".

Possibly, but they were still operating. Quentin doesn't seem to have applied any healing magic that we saw to the whole construction; I'm just saying that it could be useful, for things like restoring amputated body parts and the like.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Xilizhra wrote...

The appearance of the Abomination is dependant on the power of the demon in question, and its ultirior motive. And the point was, that even Tevinter, with all their vaunted Blood Magic, still has Abominations. So if even they, are plagued by demons, then why exactly would they let such knowledge pass them by? It doesn't add up. Merrill's technique simply doesn't make sense, in any other way, than her being her usual naive self, believing herself to hold all the answers. I'd be more inclined to trust in Anders' method, since that I can at least see why would work against some demons.

It doesn't make abominations stop happening, just allows you to detect them if they're hidden. It's also not dependent on the class of demon as much as you said; even desire and pride demons show up as mutated fleshbags if they weren't taken in by choice, or if the demon can't shapeshift.

Uldred didn't appear to have agreed to his possession, considering he shrieked in terror just before it happened. But I do agree, that forcible possession commonly results in the mutated flesh heaps we usually sees. But if the demon is powerful enough, and it so wishes, it can remain hidden in the mage host.

Xilizhra wrote...

And why exactly would the amges themselves suddenly have forgotten this technique? As I said, it doesn't add up.

It might need blood magic.

Yes, because that have held the Tevinters back since the dawn of time.

Xilizhra wrote...

What you mentioned earlier was not even a good example of preservation. First of all, it was certainly not a case of healing magic. Secondly the amputated bodyparts were necrotic and falling apart, not exactly the best showcase of "preservation".

Possibly, but they were still operating. Quentin doesn't seem to have applied any healing magic that we saw to the whole construction; I'm just saying that it could be useful, for things like restoring amputated body parts and the like.

So far blood magic has done little to inspire any such confidence.

[Xilizhra]

Uldred didn't appear to have agreed to his possession, considering he shrieked in terror just before it happened. But I do agree, that forcible possession commonly results in the mutated flesh heaps we usually sees. But if the demon is powerful enough, and it so wishes, it can remain hidden in the mage host.

He shrieked in something. Was it terror, or is the possession process just painful? Was it even him screaming?

Yes, because that have held the Tevinters back since the dawn of time.

Why do you keep thinking Tevinter doesn't know about it? It almost certainly does, especially since the Right of Annulment doesn't apply over there. There's also the fact that Anders says, at the beginning of the quest Justice, that Tevinter is the only nation that's been interested in reversing possession rather than just killing the possessed; while Anders' formula doesn't work for that, Fenris makes no attempt to deny the statement about Tevinter.

So far blood magic has done little to inspire any such confidence.

Maybe to you. There's also the simple advantage of being able to achieve power boosts that would normally require large amounts of lyrium, and in that, it can do things like cleanse darkspawn taint.

[Jaison1986]

Xilizhra wrote...

Maybe to you. There's also the simple advantage of being able to achieve power boosts that would normally require large amounts of lyrium, and in that, it can do things like cleanse darkspawn taint.

Only for small spells. Bigger spells require living sacrifices to work, such as Jowan or the magisters that went to the fade.

[Medhia Nox]

@Jaison1986: Yeah, but those will probably be non-mages and Xilizhra doesn't seem to care about anyone but mages.

[Xilizhra]

Jaison1986 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Maybe to you. There's also the simple advantage of being able to achieve power boosts that would normally require large amounts of lyrium, and in that, it can do things like cleanse darkspawn taint.

Only for small spells. Bigger spells require living sacrifices to work, such as Jowan or the magisters that went to the fade.

Well, Merrill's spell would have required "piles of lyrium," apparently, but she was able to just use her own blood for it. In any case, you could probably have a cabal of blood mages make multiple sacrifices of blood that could cumulatively provide the same amount of power that an actual death would require.

@Jaison1986: Yeah, but those
will probably be non-mages and Xilizhra doesn't seem to care about
anyone but mages.

And you get this from where?

Modifié par Xilizhra, 18 novembre 2013 - 06:33 .

[Medhia Nox]

@Xilizhra: Your endless excuses for mage atrocities.

[Xilizhra]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Xilizhra: Your endless excuses for mage atrocities.

I think there are only two things you'd call atrocities that I've made any excuses for, and one is from a book you haven't read and apparently refuse to read. So I don't really know what you're talking about.

[Hellion Rex]

Xilizhra wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Xilizhra: Your endless excuses for mage atrocities.

I think there are only two things you'd call atrocities that I've made any excuses for, and one is from a book you haven't read and apparently refuse to read. So I don't really know what you're talking about.

He has not read Asunder?

[Allan Schumacher]

Leandra. Quentin transplanted her head onto a corpse and got the thing to reanimate without need for a demon. Granted, the result didn't survive without his direct magic, but it was nonetheless an impressive feat, and applications like this combined with Creation healing magic could be most intriguing.

I'm not sure if I'd equate Leandra to being a good example of "healing."

[Hellion Rex]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Leandra. Quentin transplanted her head onto a corpse and got the thing to reanimate without need for a demon. Granted, the result didn't survive without his direct magic, but it was nonetheless an impressive feat, and applications like this combined with Creation healing magic could be most intriguing.

I'm not sure if I'd equate Leandra to being a good example of "healing."

Indeed. It was more of necromantic reanimation, not the actual returning of true life.

[EmperorSahlertz]

eluvianix wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Leandra. Quentin transplanted her head onto a corpse and got the thing to reanimate without need for a demon. Granted, the result didn't survive without his direct magic, but it was nonetheless an impressive feat, and applications like this combined with Creation healing magic could be most intriguing.

I'm not sure if I'd equate Leandra to being a good example of "healing."

Indeed. It was more of necromantic reanimation, not the actual returning of true life.

The wonders of Blood Magic!

[Iakus]

Xilizhra wrote...

2. This is already done with phylacteries (which we aren't quite sure how is made yet).

Rather amusing how the blood magic tracking spell is utterly identical to it, no?

Pretty sure phylacteries are in fact blood magic of a sort.  Evangeline cynically thinks of them as a bit of hypocricy on the templar's part that they use them to track mages

3. We have zero cases of blood magic being effective healing magic.

Leandra. Quentin transplanted her head onto a corpse and got the thing to reanimate without need for a demon. Granted, the result didn't survive without his direct magic, but it was nonetheless an impressive feat, and applications like this combined with Creation healing magic could be most intriguing.

I wouldn't call that "healing"  Quentin was simply anchoring Leandra's soul to her body, preventing her from dying.  
 

[Hellion Rex]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Leandra. Quentin transplanted her head onto a corpse and got the thing to reanimate without need for a demon. Granted, the result didn't survive without his direct magic, but it was nonetheless an impressive feat, and applications like this combined with Creation healing magic could be most intriguing.

I'm not sure if I'd equate Leandra to being a good example of "healing."

Indeed. It was more of necromantic reanimation, not the actual returning of true life.

The wonders of Blood Magic!

Even still, practical observation of blood magic under supervision can still bear merit. That sort of study is what got us the Litany of Adralla.

[Xilizhra]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Leandra. Quentin transplanted her head onto a corpse and got the thing to reanimate without need for a demon. Granted, the result didn't survive without his direct magic, but it was nonetheless an impressive feat, and applications like this combined with Creation healing magic could be most intriguing.

I'm not sure if I'd equate Leandra to being a good example of "healing."

It was certainly something. A head transplant without any notable medical technology is damned impressive. And, either Leandra never actually died until Quentin's magic stopped working, or she did die but Quentin was able to keep her soul in her body; both of those are very interesting.

I wouldn't call that "healing"  Quentin was simply anchoring Leandra's soul to her body, preventing her from dying. 

Why would he? It was his wife he wanted, not Leandra.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 18 novembre 2013 - 07:01 .

[Heimdall]

dragonflight288 wrote...

But the Chantry suppresses, if not outright bans anatomical studies because it's associated with blood magic.  

I've seen this claim several times, but it occurs to me that I can't think of a source for it.  Might you provide?

I bring it up because medieval and Rennaissance anatomical studies had difficulties largely because acquiring corpses was difficult to do legitimately and usually required grave robbing, still today considered immoral and illegal, more than church suppression.  Though at the height of the Black Death the Pope actually encouraged dissection of the dead in the hopes that the disease might be understood and cured.

Modifié par Lord Aesir, 18 novembre 2013 - 07:07 .

[Hellion Rex]

Lord Aesir wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

But the Chantry suppresses, if not outright bans anatomical studies because it's associated with blood magic.  

I've seen this claim several times, but it occurs to me that I can't think of a source for it.  Might you provide?

"The Chantry has gone to great lengths to ban the use of blood magic,
going so far as to suppress anatomical study and condemning its use even
in the face of severe circumstances" ------ DA Wiki page on Blood magic.

[Xilizhra]

eluvianix wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

But the Chantry suppresses, if not outright bans anatomical studies because it's associated with blood magic.  

I've seen this claim several times, but it occurs to me that I can't think of a source for it.  Might you provide?

"The Chantry has gone to great lengths to ban the use of blood magic,
going so far as to suppress anatomical study and condemning its use even
in the face of severe circumstances" ------ DA Wiki page on Blood magic.

The wiki itself isn't a source, but I think the actual source is an item description in Origins.

[Hellion Rex]

Xilizhra wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Leandra. Quentin transplanted her head onto a corpse and got the thing to reanimate without need for a demon. Granted, the result didn't survive without his direct magic, but it was nonetheless an impressive feat, and applications like this combined with Creation healing magic could be most intriguing.

I'm not sure if I'd equate Leandra to being a good example of "healing."

It was certainly something. A head transplant without any notable medical technology is damned impressive. And, either Leandra never actually died until Quentin's magic stopped working, or she did die but Quentin was able to keep her soul in her body; both of those are very interesting.

I think it is the latter, to be honest. I think he was able to tether the soul to her body, keeping her alive. I honestly do not think it would have lasted forever to be honest. But even still, think of the possible applications...Being able to use magic to stop a patient from dying, to keep them from crossing the threshold of death until they can be healed properly.

[Cainhurst Crow]

Blood magic being immune to negation or neutralization mskes it too dangerous to trust. It's giving massive amounts of power with no effective way to combat or keep the practitioners in check.