1238 réponses à ce sujet

[Hellion Rex]

Xilizhra wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

But the Chantry suppresses, if not outright bans anatomical studies because it's associated with blood magic.  

I've seen this claim several times, but it occurs to me that I can't think of a source for it.  Might you provide?

"The Chantry has gone to great lengths to ban the use of blood magic,
going so far as to suppress anatomical study and condemning its use even
in the face of severe circumstances" ------ DA Wiki page on Blood magic.

The wiki itself isn't a source, but I think the actual source is an item description in Origins.

Does not make it any less true. But it is indeed from the Tome of the Mortal Vessel.

[Hellion Rex]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Blood magic being immune to negation or neutralization mskes it too dangerous to trust. It's giving massive amounts of power with no effective way to combat or keep the practitioners in check.

Again, Templars can withstand it (Evangeline), but it is just a lot harder to do.

[Heimdall]

eluvianix wrote...

Does not make it any less true. But it is indeed from the Tome of the Mortal Vessel.

Good to know.

I was really hoping for a moment that Bioware was not going the route of the stereotypical knowledge suppressing medieval clergy.

Medieval and Rennaissance anatomical studies had difficulties largely because acquiring corpses was difficult to do legitimately and usually required grave robbing, still today considered immoral and illegal, more than church suppression.  Though at the height of the Black Death the Pope actually encouraged dissection of the dead in the hopes that the disease might be understood and cured.

Modifié par Lord Aesir, 18 novembre 2013 - 07:11 .

[Hellion Rex]

Lord Aesir wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Does not make it any less true. But it is indeed from the Tome of the Mortal Vessel.

Good to know.

I was really hoping for a moment that Bioware was not going the route of the stereotypical knowledge suppressing medieval clergy.

Medieval and Rennaissance anatomical studies had difficulties largely because acquiring corpses was difficult to do legitimately and usually required grave robbing, still today considered immoral and illegal, more than church suppression.  Though at the height of the Black Death the Pope actually encouraged dissection of the dead in the hopes that the disease might be understood and cured.

Considering that Justinia is seemingly more progressive, we might have some good changes in the Chantry practices in the near future.

[Iakus]

eluvianix wrote...
I think it is the latter, to be honest. I think he was able to tether the soul to her body, keeping her alive. I honestly do not think it would have lasted forever to be honest. But even still, think of the possible applications...Being able to use magic to stop a patient from dying, to keep them from crossing the threshold of death until they can be healed properly.

I'm not so sure I would trust to blood magic to sustain someone until Igor can find another brain

But seriously, what he was doing seemed to involve demons, as Quentin had those three desire demons with him. Me, I'd trust a spirit healer more.  And even then bad stuff tends to happen when such extreme measures are used.

[Wulfram]

eluvianix wrote...

Considering that Justinia is seemingly more progressive, we might have some good changes in the Chantry practices in the near future.

I don't know.  If you liberalised things for mages generally, there might be a pressure to tighten up restrictions on blood magic as a precaution.

[Hellion Rex]

iakus wrote...

eluvianix wrote...
I think it is the latter, to be honest. I think he was able to tether the soul to her body, keeping her alive. I honestly do not think it would have lasted forever to be honest. But even still, think of the possible applications...Being able to use magic to stop a patient from dying, to keep them from crossing the threshold of death until they can be healed properly.

I'm not so sure I would trust to blood magic to sustain someone until Igor can find another brain

But seriously, what he was doing seemed to involve demons, as Quentin had those three desire demons with him. Me, I'd trust a spirit healer more.  And even then bad stuff tends to happen when such extreme measures are used.

Oh, I agree. But I am just saying that blood magic has been shown in this situation to do something very remarkable, being able to keep her alive for a time. If Spirit Healers and Creation mages could learn to do something similar, that would amazing. We have seen very few mages with such great healing skills, beyond Wynne and Anders.

[Hellion Rex]

Wulfram wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Considering that Justinia is seemingly more progressive, we might have some good changes in the Chantry practices in the near future.

I don't know.  If you liberalised things for mages generally, there might be a pressure to tighten up restrictions on blood magic as a precaution.

When I said good changes, I merely meant in regards to allowing healers to study the anatomy of bodies so that healing magic might be advanced.

[Cainhurst Crow]

eluvianix wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Blood magic being immune to negation or neutralization mskes it too dangerous to trust. It's giving massive amounts of power with no effective way to combat or keep the practitioners in check.

Again, Templars can withstand it (Evangeline), but it is just a lot harder to do.

Yes or nor can templars neutralize blood magic using their powers?

[Hellion Rex]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Blood magic being immune to negation or neutralization mskes it too dangerous to trust. It's giving massive amounts of power with no effective way to combat or keep the practitioners in check.

Again, Templars can withstand it (Evangeline), but it is just a lot harder to do.

Yes or nor can templars neutralize blood magic using their powers?

Yes, they can, it is just a lot harder to neutralize and negate than normal mana based magic.

[Medhia Nox]

@eluvianix: That's why you gotta get a blood mage in the head.

Why archers aren't more valued in worlds with mages is beyond me... an arrow to the back of the head doesn't leave a lot of room for magic.

No, let's charge the mage head on. 

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 18 novembre 2013 - 08:11 .

[Hellion Rex]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@eluvianix: That's why you gotta get a blood mage in the head.

Why archers aren't more valued in worlds with mages is beyond me... an arrow to the back of the head doesn't leave a lot of room for magic.

No, let's charge the mage head on. 

A mage can make a shield, no? Block the arrow, swat it away with force magic, incinerate it before it hits the target, etc.

[TheKomandorShepard]

eluvianix wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

@eluvianix: That's why you gotta get a blood mage in the head.

Why archers aren't more valued in worlds with mages is beyond me... an arrow to the back of the head doesn't leave a lot of room for magic.

No, let's charge the mage head on. 

A mage can make a shield, no? Block the arrow, swat it away with force magic, incinerate it before it hits the target, etc.

Well as far they didn't do good job to even prove themselves against enemies with melee weapon and i even don't mention that before mage will cast spell he will be dead ten times killed by archer.

[Medhia Nox]

@eluvianix: Do you assume I would have my archers announce themselves before attack?

Also - the Red Templars have obviously heard of siege weapons?

Trebuchets have a MUCH better line of sight than a mage.... firing at the Ferelden Circle from the other side of Lake Calenhad? Yeah - absolutely.

Then tossing fire arrows at mages trying to get close enough on boats?

It's this weird need to announce yourself to mages in universes like this that I simply don't understand.

I'd also have dwarves working overtime on Anti-Magic enchantments.

[Xilizhra]

@eluvianix: Do you assume I would have my archers announce themselves before attack?

Do you assume that Arcane Shield isn't a spell you can leave on constantly?

[EmperorSahlertz]

eluvianix wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

But the Chantry suppresses, if not outright bans anatomical studies because it's associated with blood magic.  

I've seen this claim several times, but it occurs to me that I can't think of a source for it.  Might you provide?

"The Chantry has gone to great lengths to ban the use of blood magic,
going so far as to suppress anatomical study and condemning its use even
in the face of severe circumstances" ------ DA Wiki page on Blood magic.

The wiki itself isn't a source, but I think the actual source is an item description in Origins.

Does not make it any less true. But it is indeed from the Tome of the Mortal Vessel.

However, what you quoted from the wiki is NOT AT ALL what is actually said in the description of the tome...

"Fear of blood magic has stigmatized academic dissection, but dedicated scribes keep anatomical works from disappearing."

That description doesn't even say the Chantry has anything at all to do with the stigmatization of anatomical research. On the other hand, since scribes are largely trained by the Chantry (presumably), it would appear the Chantry is responsible for the actual preservation of said research.

[Xilizhra]

Why would these scribes be trained by the Chantry? Blood magic wouldn't be an issue for nonmage Chantry scholars, and the Tome itself is magical, so I think these scribes would be mages trained in the Circle.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Xilizhra wrote...

Why would these scribes be trained by the Chantry? Blood magic wouldn't be an issue for nonmage Chantry scholars, and the Tome itself is magical, so I think these scribes would be mages trained in the Circle.

Because the Chantry is responsible for pretty uch all education on Thedas, and the Circles are still a subsidiary of the Chantry. And the tome, by its description, is not magical at all. It is just a collection of anatomical research.

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 18 novembre 2013 - 10:14 .

[Cainhurst Crow]

Xilizhra wrote...

@eluvianix: Do you assume I would have my archers announce themselves before attack?

Do you assume that Arcane Shield isn't a spell you can leave on constantly?

Two flaws in assuming that mage defense spells would work.

The need to cast them before hand. Now it may come as a surprise, but defense spells tend to drain a lot of mana at a constant rate. For a blood mage, this means needing a constant supply of life energy to maintain. It would therefore make more sense to not have it active at all times, that there comes periods where a spell needs to be deactivated. In that period of deactivation, the mage is as vulnerable as anyone else and a arrow to the jugular should be more then sufficient to kill them, especially if it's from behind so as to damage the nervous system on it's way through to its target.

The next is range, which mages tend to be woefully disadvantaged in compared to archers. Accuracy is also important, as without knowing where your opponent is, they cannot accurately cast magic to destroy them. Now full AOE spells might be effective but let us not suffer delusions, such spells require a lot of mana, or if in the case of blood mages a lot of life to pull off. More then likely medium tier magic would most likely be used, where as an archer without enough time and paitence could simply fire one or two arrows at a time and evade the rest until the mage wore themselves down. This is of course assuming there is only 1 archer, where as a team of archers would be able to take down the mage much quicker, especially if they use bombs, poisons, and traps, all impliments of the rouge skill tree that additionally favors archery.

[Allan Schumacher]

It was certainly something. A head transplant without any notable medical technology is damned impressive. And, either Leandra never actually died until Quentin's magic stopped working, or she did die but Quentin was able to keep her soul in her body; both of those are very interesting.

I guess in my experiences I mentally differentiate healing from necromancy.

[EmperorSahlertz]

And if there are two mages?

[Xilizhra]

Now it may come as a surprise, but defense spells tend to drain a lot of mana at a constant rate.

Given how this isn't how they work in-game at all, I'm curious as to where you learned this.

The next is range, which mages tend to be woefully disadvantaged in compared to archers.

The range difference really isn't that sharp.

[Cainhurst Crow]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

And if there are two mages?

Same strategy applies, picking them off and making them exhaust themselves is a strategy that need only be increased in scale to the number of mages. It, in conjucture with using melee range templars leaves the mages with a disadvantage. Do they burn themselves out trying to get rid of the close range threats and leave themselves exposed? Or do they try and focus on the long range threat and hope the templars up close don't take them out in the meantime.

And if the mages in question are truely so powerful that a small squad cannot stop them, I would question why there are not more templar reinforcements being called using the rite of annulment method.

Modifié par Darth Brotarian, 18 novembre 2013 - 10:39 .

[Inprea]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

@eluvianix: Do you assume I would have my archers announce themselves before attack?

Do you assume that Arcane Shield isn't a spell you can leave on constantly?

Two flaws in assuming that mage defense spells would work.

The need to cast them before hand. Now it may come as a surprise, but defense spells tend to drain a lot of mana at a constant rate. For a blood mage, this means needing a constant supply of life energy to maintain. It would therefore make more sense to not have it active at all times, that there comes periods where a spell needs to be deactivated. In that period of deactivation, the mage is as vulnerable as anyone else and a arrow to the jugular should be more then sufficient to kill them, especially if it's from behind so as to damage the nervous system on it's way through to its target.

The next is range, which mages tend to be woefully disadvantaged in compared to archers. Accuracy is also important, as without knowing where your opponent is, they cannot accurately cast magic to destroy them. Now full AOE spells might be effective but let us not suffer delusions, such spells require a lot of mana, or if in the case of blood mages a lot of life to pull off. More then likely medium tier magic would most likely be used, where as an archer without enough time and paitence could simply fire one or two arrows at a time and evade the rest until the mage wore themselves down. This is of course assuming there is only 1 archer, where as a team of archers would be able to take down the mage much quicker, especially if they use bombs, poisons, and traps, all impliments of the rouge skill tree that additionally favors archery.

Couldn't a blood mage just use their own natural mana to power the sustained spells like arcane shield? They then make use of blood magic to power their offensive spells for some extra damage. I know my Warden and Hawke hardly ever turned off their sustained magic spells. Especially the Warden as they actually showed up during cutscenes as I recall.

It was amusing seeing my arcane warrior slightly transparent. It kind of made it obvious what she was.

[Cainhurst Crow]

Inprea wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

@eluvianix: Do you assume I would have my archers announce themselves before attack?

Do you assume that Arcane Shield isn't a spell you can leave on constantly?

Two flaws in assuming that mage defense spells would work.

The need to cast them before hand. Now it may come as a surprise, but defense spells tend to drain a lot of mana at a constant rate. For a blood mage, this means needing a constant supply of life energy to maintain. It would therefore make more sense to not have it active at all times, that there comes periods where a spell needs to be deactivated. In that period of deactivation, the mage is as vulnerable as anyone else and a arrow to the jugular should be more then sufficient to kill them, especially if it's from behind so as to damage the nervous system on it's way through to its target.

The next is range, which mages tend to be woefully disadvantaged in compared to archers. Accuracy is also important, as without knowing where your opponent is, they cannot accurately cast magic to destroy them. Now full AOE spells might be effective but let us not suffer delusions, such spells require a lot of mana, or if in the case of blood mages a lot of life to pull off. More then likely medium tier magic would most likely be used, where as an archer without enough time and paitence could simply fire one or two arrows at a time and evade the rest until the mage wore themselves down. This is of course assuming there is only 1 archer, where as a team of archers would be able to take down the mage much quicker, especially if they use bombs, poisons, and traps, all impliments of the rouge skill tree that additionally favors archery.

Couldn't a blood mage just use their own natural mana to power the sustained spells like arcane shield? They then make use of blood magic to power their offensive spells for some extra damage. I know my Warden and Hawke hardly ever turned off their sustained magic spells. Especially the Warden as they actually showed up during cutscenes as I recall.

It was amusing seeing my arcane warrior slightly transparent. It kind of made it obvious what she was.

If we go by the in game design, then no, because it seems to be one or the other. If they are using mana, templar techniques in cancelling out magic should be more then sufficient to neutralize their spells. Blood magic however is much harder to neutralize, so that is why it would require them burning themselves out first, to force them to stop using blood magic or risk loosing their lives.

And then there is holy smite, which would further disadvantage the mage, blood magic or not, especially if a coordinate volley of holy smites were used on the mage. If there were too many blood mages for this to work, I believe as I stated in another post the rite of annulment method of engagement would be needed.