1238 réponses à ce sujet

[snackrat]

...as an additional note about Tranquillity, I think it has its place. I think the fact it can be reversed is a good thing however.

If one proves unable to resist, or unwilling, then some action must be taken. RoT means it isn't always death. Allow the mage to choose.
Of the two taken RoT that reversed its effects, both hated the RoT (Karl Thekla [DAII], and Pharamond [Dragon Age: Asunder]). Perhaps after a period (say, a year) the RoT could be reversed. At this point the mage could make their final decision.

However, there ultimately is no happy ending. The only other thing that seems to nullify magic is templar abilities. Comics and books show they were charms with AoE nullifying effects - but any resistant mage would not have to keep wearing such a charm, and the charm may wear off or be broken. The only way you could prevent them just taking it off when it suits them would be like "**** it" and inventing medieval medicine by starting surgery shoving it in their organ sack or something.

[Bardox9]

Icy Magebane wrote...

Lord Raijin wrote...

eluvianix wrote...
When I personally speak about Tranquility, I am talking about the forced kind, not a situation such as this. This is an obvious exception. As hinted in Asunder, hopefully we can find a way to strip a person of their magic without having to go to this extreme.

I have no problem with involuntary Tranquility for as long as it's done in a legal fashion.

Why would Tranquility be a more appropriate punishment than a standard death sentence?  Since the Rite of Tranquility is already legal, I assume you are talking about using it as a punishment.

The Rite of Tranquility was never meant to be a punishment. It is supposed to only be used on those who are too weak willed to resist demons or are unwilling to under go the Harrowing. Chantry law forbids the use of the Rite without hard evidence from the Knight Commander that a mage is corrupt and First Enchanter must also agree to it. Merediths use of the Rite was illegal.

EDIT- According to the Wiki, Tranquility is only to be used on a mage that "either cannot control their magic or has shown no signs of willingness to do so."

Modifié par Bardox9, 13 novembre 2013 - 08:07 .

[Icy Magebane]

Lord Raijin wrote...

Icy Magebane wrote...
Why would Tranquility be a more appropriate punishment than a standard death sentence?  Since the Rite of Tranquility is already legal, I assume you are talking about using it as a punishment.

Criminal mages are far more useful alive than dead. They can become an asset to the Circle after being made Tranquil with runecrafting and enchanting things. They can do things that mages can't like dealing with lyrium.

The Circle needs income coming in to survive, and the Tranquils are perfect when it comes to selling things to make money for the Circle.

So, destroying the minds of individuals and making them slaves is okay because the Circle has bills to pay... gotcha.  Well, I don't agree with that at all.  Maybe if they give you the option of death or tranquility, fine.  At least give me a chance to die instead.  This is just like the Qunari with their use of Qamek on people who won't get with the program...

Bardox9 wrote...
The Rite of Tranquility was never meant to be a punishment. It is supposed to only be used on those who are too weak willed to resist demons or are unwilling to under go the Harrowing. Chantry law forbids the use of the Rite without hard evidence from the Knight Commander that a mage is corrupt and First Enchanter must also agree to it. Merediths use of the Rite was illegal.

Yeah, but that's what I meant when I mentioned that it's already legal.  Raijin mentioned involuntary Tranquility under "legal" circumstances, so I wanted him to explain how this hypothetical was different from what we already have.

Modifié par Icy Magebane, 13 novembre 2013 - 08:07 .

[Bardox9]

I think it's even illegal to perform the Rite on a mage that has passed their Harrowing. Not sure about that though.

[Hellion Rex]

Bardox9 wrote...

I think it's even illegal to perform the Rite on a mage that has passed their Harrowing. Not sure about that though.

It is. However, not everyone pays attention to that rule.

[EmperorSahlertz]

dragonflight288 wrote...

I have an idea on something that would replace the Harrowing. Actually only got the idea yesterday while playing Kingdoms of Amalur: Reckoning.

Yesterday, I joined the mage faction called the Scholia Arcana, and I recognize they have completely different rules about magic and don't have the risk of possession, but every one of their initiates, every one, has to pass a test similar to the Harrowing and it can be fatal, if you go into it unprepared.

Basically the premise is this, you train in the Scholia Arcana for years before you are considered ready, and you are put through an initiation ritual, where the magic forces you to face an embodiment of your own potential. (It's really hilarious how the protagonist in the game goes through quite a few caves, and the Savant in charge comments on how many caves the Fateless goes through)

It changes for each and every initiate, so you cannot say exactly what will happen or what you will face as everyone has different talents and skills. You are also warned about it beforehand that it may be lethal, but you cannot advance beyond initiate unless you pass this test. If you don't feel ready for it, you can continue training.

I think if in Dragon Age, a magical test could be devised to have mages face their own strengths and weaknesses to overcome instead of facing a demon, it would work much better. Besides, events in the game have proven that the Harrowing is absolutely worthless as a way to weed out which mages will or will not resist possession.

Then let us also toss out driver's license. They OBVIOSULY do not make people immune to crashing their cars, so what is the sue for them?
If there was a way for mages to prove that they could handle a demon, without actually handling a demon, that would be great. However, it does not seem like such a test exists.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Bardox9 wrote...

Icy Magebane wrote...

Lord Raijin wrote...

eluvianix wrote...
When I personally speak about Tranquility, I am talking about the forced kind, not a situation such as this. This is an obvious exception. As hinted in Asunder, hopefully we can find a way to strip a person of their magic without having to go to this extreme.

I have no problem with involuntary Tranquility for as long as it's done in a legal fashion.

Why would Tranquility be a more appropriate punishment than a standard death sentence?  Since the Rite of Tranquility is already legal, I assume you are talking about using it as a punishment.

The Rite of Tranquility was never meant to be a punishment. It is supposed to only be used on those who are too weak willed to resist demons or are unwilling to under go the Harrowing. Chantry law forbids the use of the Rite without hard evidence from the Knight Commander that a mage is corrupt and First Enchanter must also agree to it. Merediths use of the Rite was illegal.

EDIT- According to the Wiki, Tranquility is only to be used on a mage that "either cannot control their magic or has shown no signs of willingness to do so."

Meredith never used the Rite of Tranquility illegally in DA2. Alrik did. Those two are not the same. You could argue that the tranquilization of a couple of Starkhaven mages could technically be illegal. But then you could argue they were no longer Circle mages and no longer held the same rights as a Circle Mage does.

[Hellion Rex]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

I have an idea on something that would replace the Harrowing. Actually only got the idea yesterday while playing Kingdoms of Amalur: Reckoning.

Yesterday, I joined the mage faction called the Scholia Arcana, and I recognize they have completely different rules about magic and don't have the risk of possession, but every one of their initiates, every one, has to pass a test similar to the Harrowing and it can be fatal, if you go into it unprepared.

Basically the premise is this, you train in the Scholia Arcana for years before you are considered ready, and you are put through an initiation ritual, where the magic forces you to face an embodiment of your own potential. (It's really hilarious how the protagonist in the game goes through quite a few caves, and the Savant in charge comments on how many caves the Fateless goes through)

It changes for each and every initiate, so you cannot say exactly what will happen or what you will face as everyone has different talents and skills. You are also warned about it beforehand that it may be lethal, but you cannot advance beyond initiate unless you pass this test. If you don't feel ready for it, you can continue training.

I think if in Dragon Age, a magical test could be devised to have mages face their own strengths and weaknesses to overcome instead of facing a demon, it would work much better. Besides, events in the game have proven that the Harrowing is absolutely worthless as a way to weed out which mages will or will not resist possession.

Then let us also toss out driver's license. They OBVIOSULY do not make people immune to crashing their cars, so what is the sue for them?
If there was a way for mages to prove that they could handle a demon, without actually handling a demon, that would be great. However, it does not seem like such a test exists.

It was just an idea. Of course the test does not already exist. He just made it up, based off of something else he had seen.

[TEWR]

But then you could argue they were no longer Circle mages and no longer held the same rights as a Circle Mage does.

Personally, l feel that while she had the grounds to Tranquil the mages, her use of it was really problematic because she did it at random rather then based on logical suspicions of who might be corrupt and who might not be.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 13 novembre 2013 - 08:21 .

[Icy Magebane]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Then let us also toss out driver's license. They OBVIOSULY do not make people immune to crashing their cars, so what is the sue for them?
If there was a way for mages to prove that they could handle a demon, without actually handling a demon, that would be great. However, it does not seem like such a test exists.

The Harrowing doesn't increase your ability to resist demons, however.  Learning how to drive substantially decreases the likelyhood of having an accident.

Is it unreasonable to simply let the Templars perform their duty and kill any mages who become possessed?  None of their training would change other than undergoing the Harrowing itself, and perhaps placing greater emphasis on understanding the fade and the nature of demons.

[Lord Raijin]

Icy Magebane wrote...
So, destroying the minds of individuals and making them slaves is okay because the Circle has bills to pay... gotcha.  Well, I don't agree with that at all.  Maybe if they give you the option of death or tranquility, fine.  At least give me a chance to die instead.  This is just like the Qunari with their use of Qamek on people who won't get with the program...

Acording to David Tranquils are not slaves and mages are repeadly told that using blood magic is a sin and highly against the Chantries rules. It is also illegal. If they still do it anyways then they deserve to be made tranquil as they're putting people around them at risk.

Yeah, but that's what I meant when I mentioned that it's already legal.  Raijin mentioned involuntary Tranquility under "legal" circumstances, so I wanted him to explain how this hypothetical was different from what we already have.

Jowan was scheduled to be made tranquil after the Knight-Commander collected crurial evidence indicating that he was dabbling with blood magic. The First Enchanter agreed with the RoT. In the eyes of both men plus the laws of the Chantry anyone who depends on blood magic and rely on demons for help are considered weak and unable to resist demons, and therefour R.o.T is legal under Chantries laws.  It isn't much of a punishment rather than to avoid them from becoming an abomination.

Modifié par Lord Raijin, 13 novembre 2013 - 08:27 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

Icy Magebane wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Then let us also toss out driver's license. They OBVIOSULY do not make people immune to crashing their cars, so what is the sue for them?
If there was a way for mages to prove that they could handle a demon, without actually handling a demon, that would be great. However, it does not seem like such a test exists.

The Harrowing doesn't increase your ability to resist demons, however.  Learning how to drive substantially decreases the likelyhood of having an accident.

Is it unreasonable to simply let the Templars perform their duty and kill any mages who become possessed?  None of their training would change other than undergoing the Harrowing itself, and perhaps placing greater emphasis on understanding the fade and the nature of demons.

The Harrowing is not supposed to teach you anything, it is supposed to be a final test which proves you can handle yourself. Just like the final test when you take your driver's license.

[Icy Magebane]

@Lord Raijin - So basically, you are saying that you like the Circle system as it is. I am not trying to argue against Tranquility and the laws governing it as they currently exist. When you mentioned "criminals," I assumed you meant "maleficar," mages who commit crimes, like murder, theft, etc. If we aren't talking about a new system, then I have nothing to add. The law is the law, and until the laws are changed, people need to obey them.

What I am questioning is the validity of the Rite of Tranquility as the sole method of punishment for mages. Voluntary tranquility I have no problem with, but even under the current system, forced tranquility for committing crimes seems barbaric. If this isn't simply a way to get free labor, and create humans that can work with lyrium (bypassing the need to trade with dwarves), then I don't see any reason why you can't just make it optional (death being the other option).

And I don't care who said what, forcing people to work for you is slavery. If you aren't even given an option to die instead, and some third party thinks they can put your mind to sleep and your body to use, that's slavery.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
The
Harrowing is not supposed to teach you anything, it is supposed to be a final test which proves you can handle yourself. Just like the final test when you take your driver's license.

Whether you pass this test or not has no bearing on your ability to resist demons in the future, thus it serves no purpose other than creating more Tranquill or perhaps as a preemptive strike.  The Templars are supposed to be watching the mages regardless, and if they are possessed, they are killed.  I'm not seeing the logic in forcing this fate upon them via the Harrowing.  If this test were indicative of the ability to resist demons in the future, why have we seen so many harrowed mages who later became abominations?

Modifié par Icy Magebane, 13 novembre 2013 - 08:43 .

[Hellion Rex]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Icy Magebane wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Then let us also toss out driver's license. They OBVIOSULY do not make people immune to crashing their cars, so what is the sue for them?
If there was a way for mages to prove that they could handle a demon, without actually handling a demon, that would be great. However, it does not seem like such a test exists.

The Harrowing doesn't increase your ability to resist demons, however.  Learning how to drive substantially decreases the likelyhood of having an accident.

Is it unreasonable to simply let the Templars perform their duty and kill any mages who become possessed?  None of their training would change other than undergoing the Harrowing itself, and perhaps placing greater emphasis on understanding the fade and the nature of demons.

The Harrowing is not supposed to teach you anything, it is supposed to be a final test which proves you can handle yourself. Just like the final test when you take your driver's license.

And yet, it does not necessarily help you in the long run either. We have seen just as many harrowed mages turn abomination as we have apprentices.

[EmperorSahlertz]

eluvianix wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Icy Magebane wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Then let us also toss out driver's license. They OBVIOSULY do not make people immune to crashing their cars, so what is the sue for them?
If there was a way for mages to prove that they could handle a demon, without actually handling a demon, that would be great. However, it does not seem like such a test exists.

The Harrowing doesn't increase your ability to resist demons, however.  Learning how to drive substantially decreases the likelyhood of having an accident.

Is it unreasonable to simply let the Templars perform their duty and kill any mages who become possessed?  None of their training would change other than undergoing the Harrowing itself, and perhaps placing greater emphasis on understanding the fade and the nature of demons.

The Harrowing is not supposed to teach you anything, it is supposed to be a final test which proves you can handle yourself. Just like the final test when you take your driver's license.

And yet, it does not necessarily help you in the long run either. We have seen just as many harrowed mages turn abomination as we have apprentices.

JUST like a driver's license.

[Hellion Rex]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Icy Magebane wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Then let us also toss out driver's license. They OBVIOSULY do not make people immune to crashing their cars, so what is the sue for them?
If there was a way for mages to prove that they could handle a demon, without actually handling a demon, that would be great. However, it does not seem like such a test exists.

The Harrowing doesn't increase your ability to resist demons, however.  Learning how to drive substantially decreases the likelyhood of having an accident.

Is it unreasonable to simply let the Templars perform their duty and kill any mages who become possessed?  None of their training would change other than undergoing the Harrowing itself, and perhaps placing greater emphasis on understanding the fade and the nature of demons.

The Harrowing is not supposed to teach you anything, it is supposed to be a final test which proves you can handle yourself. Just like the final test when you take your driver's license.

And yet, it does not necessarily help you in the long run either. We have seen just as many harrowed mages turn abomination as we have apprentices.

JUST like a driver's license.

So what is the point of even having the Harrowing then, if it does not guarantee that you can always fight off possession? Just because you can do it once does not mean you will always be so lucky.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Icy Magebane wrote...

Segregation fosters resentment. Mages must be allowed to integrate into the population or they will continue to be demonized, and the cycle of resentment and rebellion starts anew. If the basic templar abilities were commonly understood and practiced by town guards, we wouldn't need to keep them isolated. Add in a few elite guards who specialize in this training, a few basic requirements for mages (compulsory training, phylacteries, etc), and society can move past this conflict entirely.

LOLNO.

I wish people would stop living in dream worlds.

[EmperorSahlertz]

eluvianix wrote...

So what is the point of even having the Harrowing then, if it does not guarantee that you can always fight off possession? Just because you can do it once does not mean you will always be so lucky.

What is the point of having a final test for a driver's license? It is not the test that teaches you, it is the whole process up to the test that is important.

What do you think the mages learn during all those years they are in the Circle prior to their Harrowing? They of course learn to handle their magic. The Harrowing is simply a final test, used to prove that they have actually learned something. It is in itself not supposed to teach anyhting, or make the mage immune. It is supposed to be proof to the world, that the amge can handle himself, and that he has learned during his stay in the Circle.

[Icy Magebane]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Icy Magebane wrote...

Segregation fosters resentment. Mages must be allowed to integrate into the population or they will continue to be demonized, and the cycle of resentment and rebellion starts anew. If the basic templar abilities were commonly understood and practiced by town guards, we wouldn't need to keep them isolated. Add in a few elite guards who specialize in this training, a few basic requirements for mages (compulsory training, phylacteries, etc), and society can move past this conflict entirely.

LOLNO.

I wish people would stop living in dream worlds.

All I'm going to say to that is that you have no proof that it wouldn't work.

[Hellion Rex]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Icy Magebane wrote...

Segregation fosters resentment. Mages must be allowed to integrate into the population or they will continue to be demonized, and the cycle of resentment and rebellion starts anew. If the basic templar abilities were commonly understood and practiced by town guards, we wouldn't need to keep them isolated. Add in a few elite guards who specialize in this training, a few basic requirements for mages (compulsory training, phylacteries, etc), and society can move past this conflict entirely.

LOLNO.

I wish people would stop living in dream worlds.

Hardly a dream world. Keeping mages segregated is part of the problem. It feeds the the common man's distrust and fear of the mages.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Icy Magebane wrote...

Segregation fosters resentment. Mages must be allowed to integrate into the population or they will continue to be demonized, and the cycle of resentment and rebellion starts anew. If the basic templar abilities were commonly understood and practiced by town guards, we wouldn't need to keep them isolated. Add in a few elite guards who specialize in this training, a few basic requirements for mages (compulsory training, phylacteries, etc), and society can move past this conflict entirely.

We face segregation EVERY DAY, and it doe snot breed resentment. What breeds resentment is ignorance and the fear that it fosters.
Giving Lyrium to City Guards are not feasible. First of all, addicting even more people to the stuff is unwise. Secondly Lyrium is rare and expensive, and probably way above the budget of some common city guard. Thirdly why would the Chantry give up trade secrets that would make people less reliant on them?

[RobRam10]

EWWW bowing to the circles? NO! We should be dominating their inferior minds! Mages should be the masters of Thedas!

Modifié par RobRam10, 13 novembre 2013 - 09:14 .

[Hellion Rex]

RobRam10 wrote...

EWWW bowing to the circles? NO! We should be dominating their inferior minds! Mages should be the masters of Thedas!

Not helping.

[The Flying Grey Warden]

Aequitarians and Loyalists unite, for too long our fraternities have been slandered and slashed at by the libertarian scum. They would have you believe that the circles are prisons to be broken, that there should be no regulations on magic or mages, that our freedom should come above the right of life for other non-magical people. They are little more then tevinter idolizers, who would see the magisters blood magic be brought to bear against all free people, mage and non-mage, human and elf, just so they could practice their forbidden arts freely. Do not believe the lies, do not worship their criminal ilk like uldred or anders.

A new circle, a fresh start, is what we shall need in a future. One in which mage and templar and non-mage alike can all exist peacefully and without corruption and mistrust once again.

[Hellion Rex]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Icy Magebane wrote...

Segregation fosters resentment. Mages must be allowed to integrate into the population or they will continue to be demonized, and the cycle of resentment and rebellion starts anew. If the basic templar abilities were commonly understood and practiced by town guards, we wouldn't need to keep them isolated. Add in a few elite guards who specialize in this training, a few basic requirements for mages (compulsory training, phylacteries, etc), and society can move past this conflict entirely.

We face segregation EVERY DAY, and it doe snot breed resentment. What breeds resentment is ignorance and the fear that it fosters.
Giving Lyrium to City Guards are not feasible. First of all, addicting even more people to the stuff is unwise. Secondly Lyrium is rare and expensive, and probably way above the budget of some common city guard. Thirdly why would the Chantry give up trade secrets that would make people less reliant on them?

I mean, at this point, is the whole lyrium thing even that much of a secret?