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[TheKomandorShepard]

eluvianix wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

It is hardly naive to say that there is both good and bad within everyone. It is not utopia, it is simply reality. And just because Thedas is a "dark fantasy" setting does not mean that is gloom, doom, and death 24/7.

Another thing about reality, power corrupts. It's actually very naive to think that if given magic, that people will remain at the same moral standing, and this the one that they show to the world. Very few people are actually "good." 

I am not saying that having magic would not corrupt some. I am just making the argument that it unfair to say that having magic would corrupt the majority of mages. Also, the bolded/underlined is a matter of your own personal opinion.

See tevinter...<_<

Tevinter also does not have Templars that can negate magic either.<_<

heh naive they had templars long time ago but mages took power and templars were gone so nope it leads to tevinter. 

[Hellion Rex]

The Mad Hanar wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

The Mad Hanar wrote...

I just have a few really simple questions to people who are against the Circle.

Do you feel it is really responsible to allow mages to roam free and do exactly as they please? If yes, why?

I feel like this question varies from person to person. I am against the Circle, as it is now, however if we are given the chance to change it, then I am all for it.

If, and I'm not saying this is your viewpoint, but it is a popular one, the mages were allowed full and complete control of the Circle and they were able to come and go as they choose, then wouldn't that be the same thing as allowing them to do as they please whenever they want to?

More or less, when you simplify it like that.
It is a very complicated question you pose, and my answer evolves constantly from listening to both templars and mages that form this forum. To answer you though, this is what I feel could work:
I would have a Circle run by the mages that functions and works in tandem with the Templar Order. Whatever the future of mages, I will definitely have the templars as a part of that. The Circle would work like an arm of the Chantry, similar to the Order.
Someone else posed the theory of having some Loyalist mages enfolded into the Seekers or Templar Order. I find that it would help to foster some measure of community among the "jailors" and the "jailed". Plus it would help to end the useless "Us versus Them" mentality.

Modifié par eluvianix, 21 novembre 2013 - 07:35 .

[Hellion Rex]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

heh naive they had templars long time ago but mages took power and templars were gone so nope it leads to tevinter. 

Again, not naive. The mages in the Imperium held power long before the Templars came into existence. Heck, they didn't even understand the applications of lyrium until after they had sunk Arlathan. They had to have the elves explain it to them.

[TheKomandorShepard]

eluvianix wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

heh naive they had templars long time ago but mages took power and templars were gone so nope it leads to tevinter. 

Again, not naive. The mages in the Imperium held power long before the Templars came into existence. Heck, they didn't even understand the applications of lyrium until after they had sunk Arlathan. They had to have the elves explain it to them.

ekhm i speak about tev after chantry creation as well templars where tev was under chantry "control" mages get power and that lead to country what we have now so yep naive .

[Inprea]

MisterJB wrote...

eluvianix wrote...
I would not be. My one issue however is this: would the Spirits even really care that the Veil is torn? Would they even help us? We have only had real contact with one spirit, Justice. Spirits and their motivations still remain much of a mystery to us. Even Faith, Wynne's spirit, and probably one of the most powerful we have seen, remains alien to human understanding.

Edit: We could also end up having a spirit masquerade as a demon, and that raises many more problems as well.

There are bound to be spirits like Justice or Compassion who would help the people of Thedas for no other reason than because that is the virtue they embody. It sure beats asking the mages for help and receive a list of the demands they want mets before they close a single tear.

Even good spirits have a nature. Whenever you first obtain justice in awakening he has a little talk with himself and decides if working with you would be just or not. Valor required you to fight him before he'd help you and considers the harrowing cowardly. I believe it's safe to say that even good spirits would have requirements you have to meet and you might not be happy meeting them.

Plus to my knowledge a spirit has never closed a tear without having a body first and the benevolent spirits do not like taking on a body of flesh. Justice was down right horrified.

[Hellion Rex]

Inprea wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

eluvianix wrote...
I would not be. My one issue however is this: would the Spirits even really care that the Veil is torn? Would they even help us? We have only had real contact with one spirit, Justice. Spirits and their motivations still remain much of a mystery to us. Even Faith, Wynne's spirit, and probably one of the most powerful we have seen, remains alien to human understanding.

Edit: We could also end up having a spirit masquerade as a demon, and that raises many more problems as well.

There are bound to be spirits like Justice or Compassion who would help the people of Thedas for no other reason than because that is the virtue they embody. It sure beats asking the mages for help and receive a list of the demands they want mets before they close a single tear.

Even good spirits have a nature. Whenever you first obtain justice in awakening he has a little talk with himself and decides if working with you would be just or not. Valor required you to fight him before he'd help you and considers the harrowing cowardly. I believe it's safe to say that even good spirits would have requirements you have to meet and you might not be happy meeting them.

Plus to my knowledge a spirit has never closed a tear without having a body first and the benevolent spirits do not like taking on a body of flesh. Justice was down right horrified.

I think Wynne's spirit could pull off a Sealing, but only because it is so powerful. Otherwise, I agree that any other run of the mill spirit could not perform such an action.

[MisterJB]

Inprea wrote...
Even good spirits have a nature. Whenever you first obtain justice in awakening he has a little talk with himself and decides if working with you would be just or not. Valor required you to fight him before he'd help you and considers the harrowing cowardly. I believe it's safe to say that even good spirits would have requirements you have to meet and you might not be happy meeting them.

Plus to my knowledge a spirit has never closed a tear without having a body first and the benevolent spirits do not like taking on a body of flesh. Justice was down right horrified.

The requirements of spirits appear to largely be "convince me you or your cause are in agreement with the virtue I embody" which beats mage demands by a long shot.

Also, Justice and Faith were not opposed to possession if it meant fulfilling their ditames. Anders and Wynne respectively.

[Hellion Rex]

MisterJB wrote...

Inprea wrote...
Even good spirits have a nature. Whenever you first obtain justice in awakening he has a little talk with himself and decides if working with you would be just or not. Valor required you to fight him before he'd help you and considers the harrowing cowardly. I believe it's safe to say that even good spirits would have requirements you have to meet and you might not be happy meeting them.

Plus to my knowledge a spirit has never closed a tear without having a body first and the benevolent spirits do not like taking on a body of flesh. Justice was down right horrified.

The requirements of spirits appear to largely be "convince me you or your cause are in agreement with the virtue I embody" which beats mage demands by a long shot.

Also, Justice and Faith were not opposed to possession if it meant fulfilling their ditames. Anders and Wynne respectively.

Again though, how would you contact them without a mage on your side to call to them?

[Dave of Canada]

Why would we want to work with demons that don't realize they're demons?

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 21 novembre 2013 - 08:06 .

[MisterJB]

eluvianix wrote...
Again though, how would you contact them without a mage on your side to call to them?

There are tears into the Veil everywhere. There is bound to be some way of contacting spirits that is not available normally.

[Hellion Rex]

MisterJB wrote...

eluvianix wrote...
Again though, how would you contact them without a mage on your side to call to them?

There are tears into the Veil everywhere. There is bound to be some way of contacting spirits that is not available normally.

That still smacks of needing magic to reach through to draw them out. Or you might have a mage sympathetic to what you want to accomplish help out.

[Cainhurst Crow]

The Mad Hanar wrote...

I just have a few really simple questions to people who are against the Circle.

Do you feel it is really responsible to allow mages to roam free and do exactly as they please? If yes, why?

I believe there is a middle ground that should exist between total mage anarchy, lazie faire tevinter style, kirkwalls circle, and qunari bondage fetishes. Whether it involves a circle, a new system all together, or a reform, I do not know.

But the fact these two images pretty much sum up the only 2 sides this disagreement has to offer is really damn sad.

[Inprea]

MisterJB wrote...
The requirements of spirits appear to largely be "convince me you or your cause are in agreement with the virtue I embody" which beats mage demands by a long shot.

Also, Justice and Faith were not opposed to possession if it meant fulfilling their ditames. Anders and Wynne respectively.

Are you sure about that? Justice didn't know how to return to the fade and never took on a body intentionally. Can you be certain he wouldn't have chosen to return to the fade rather then posess Anders if that had been a choice? Do we have anything confirming that Wynn's situation is the same as Justice's? I don't remember her ever turning into an abomination of any sort unlike Anders.

What happens whenever you need to compromise but a spirit isn't willing to compromise their virtue?

Looking a bit below. Isn't the notion of the tears creating easier ways to access a benevolent spirit just speculation on your part? We've been to other places were it was torn and I don't recall any benevolent spirits unless you count the trees. Trees which typically tried to kill you. Plus I have no idea what kind of virtue the elder tree would have represented if any.

[MisterJB]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Why would we want to work with demons that don't realize they're demons?

Let's say that we convince a spirit of Justice that what is happening is the greatest injustice ever; or we convince a spirit of Compassion that the thedosians need help. They will demand nothing for their help; they would close tears for free.
It sure beats going to the mages and receiving this list:
"First and foremost, the Templars will withdraw from the Circles; from here on, only mages will police other mages. Second, alongside the usual taxes, the non-mages will have to pay a thite in order to mantain the Circle; this will help prevent mage banditry. Thirdly, mage representatives will be introduced into all systems of government. Demand number 146, no mage can be punished by non-magical law enforcement agencies; should a mage commit a crime, this should be reported to the Circle that will study the case. Demand number 147..."

[MisterJB]

Inprea wrote...
Are you sure about that? Justice didn't know how to return to the fade and never took on a body intentionally. Can you be certain he wouldn't have chosen to return to the fade rather then posess Anders if that had been a choice? Do we have anything confirming that Wynn's situation is the same as Justice's? I don't remember her ever turning into an abomination of any sort unlike Anders.

Justice did choose to take Anders body in order to fight what he perceived as unjust. Would it have returned to the Fade if it could? I do not know but it shows that spirits are now always above possessing living hosts in order to pursue their goals.
The same applies to Faith. It clearly chose to inhabit a human host. It doesn't seem to have affected Wynne as much as Vengeance affected and was affected by Anders but it did choose to act.

What happens whenever you need to compromise but a spirit isn't willing to compromise their virtue?

For example?

Looking a bit below. Isn't the notion of the tears creating easier ways to access a benevolent spirit just speculation on your part? We've been to other places were it was torn and I don't recall any benevolent spirits unless you count the trees. Trees which typically tried to kill you. Plus I have no idea what kind of virtue the elder tree would have represented if any.

Speculation, yes. But Thedas is closer than ever to the Fade in DAI. It shouldn't be impossible to talk to spirits.

[MisterJB]

eluvianix wrote...
That still smacks of needing magic to reach through to draw them out. Or you might have a mage sympathetic to what you want to accomplish help out.

I'm not at all opposed to using lyrium. It's just a natural resource that accomplishes a specific effect; no different from uranium or oil.

[Vit246]

The Mad Hanar wrote...

I just have a few really simple questions to people who are against the Circle.

Do you feel it is really responsible to allow mages to roam free and do exactly as they please? If yes, why?

I am reasonably certain that most of the people who claim they are against the Circle, they meant the Circle under the control of the Chantry and the Templars.

[TheKomandorShepard]

lol someone is here ready to deal with demon instead mage well that just stupid as hell.

[Heimdall]

MisterJB wrote...

Inprea wrote...
Are you sure about that? Justice didn't know how to return to the fade and never took on a body intentionally. Can you be certain he wouldn't have chosen to return to the fade rather then posess Anders if that had been a choice? Do we have anything confirming that Wynn's situation is the same as Justice's? I don't remember her ever turning into an abomination of any sort unlike Anders.

Justice did choose to take Anders body in order to fight what he perceived as unjust. Would it have returned to the Fade if it could? I do not know but it shows that spirits are now always above possessing living hosts in order to pursue their goals.

To be fair, Anders offered

[Hellion Rex]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

The Mad Hanar wrote...

I just have a few really simple questions to people who are against the Circle.

Do you feel it is really responsible to allow mages to roam free and do exactly as they please? If yes, why?

I believe there is a middle ground that should exist between total mage anarchy, lazie faire tevinter style, kirkwalls circle, and qunari bondage fetishes. Whether it involves a circle, a new system all together, or a reform, I do not know.

But the fact these two images pretty much sum up the only 2 sides this disagreement has to offer is really damn sad.

Those two images hardly represent the conflict in and of themselves. You cannot generalize it into two sides.

[Hellion Rex]

MisterJB wrote...

eluvianix wrote...
That still smacks of needing magic to reach through to draw them out. Or you might have a mage sympathetic to what you want to accomplish help out.

I'm not at all opposed to using lyrium. It's just a natural resource that accomplishes a specific effect; no different from uranium or oil.

It still requires a mage to make use of that method.

[Inprea]

MisterJB wrote...

Inprea wrote...
Are you sure about that? Justice didn't know how to return to the fade and never took on a body intentionally. Can you be certain he wouldn't have chosen to return to the fade rather then posess Anders if that had been a choice? Do we have anything confirming that Wynn's situation is the same as Justice's? I don't remember her ever turning into an abomination of any sort unlike Anders.

Justice did choose to take Anders body in order to fight what he perceived as unjust. Would it have returned to the Fade if it could? I do not know but it shows that spirits are now always above possessing living hosts in order to pursue their goals.
The same applies to Faith. It clearly chose to inhabit a human host. It doesn't seem to have affected Wynne as much as Vengeance affected and was affected by Anders but it did choose to act.

What happens whenever you need to compromise but a spirit isn't willing to compromise their virtue?

For example?

Looking a bit below. Isn't the notion of the tears creating easier ways to access a benevolent spirit just speculation on your part? We've been to other places were it was torn and I don't recall any benevolent spirits unless you count the trees. Trees which typically tried to kill you. Plus I have no idea what kind of virtue the elder tree would have represented if any.

Speculation, yes. But Thedas is closer than ever to the Fade in DAI. It shouldn't be impossible to talk to spirits.

Not always above. Justice is apparently a rare happening though. He was already trapped outside of the fade and having to rely upon a mortal body. Are you sure a spirit would be willing to be seperated from the fade in order to help with your cause when it can persue its virtue in the fade?

As for an example. Justice considered the circle system unjust even before it came to inhabit Anders. Justice doesn't seem to care that mages may become a threat but rather judges them based on their individual actions.So what if the next spirit of justice you find says. Locking people away because of what they might do isn't just. It has happened once after all.

Valor could be another risky one. Take for example a powerful noble. Now you can either assassinate him and get the job done saving many of your men's lives and even the enemy's to or you can fight them head on in a massive siege guaranteeing a bloody conflict. Valor may tell you, "Assassination is cowardly it's better to fight."

[MisterJB]

eluvianix wrote...
It still requires a mage to make use of that method.

Not at all. The dwarves use lyrium routinely. Master Wade is capable as well.

Inprea wrote...
Not always above. Justice is apparently a rare happening though. He was already trapped outside of the fade and having to rely upon a mortal body. Are you sure a spirit would be willing to be seperated from the fade in order to help with your cause when it can persue its virtue in the fade?

Faith did so. Perhaps others will as well.

As for an example. Justice considered the circle system unjust even before it came to inhabit Anders. Justice doesn't seem to care that mages may become a threat but rather judges them based on their individual actions.So what if the next spirit of justice you find says. Locking people away because of what they might do isn't just. It has happened once after all.

Valor could be another risky one. Take for example a powerful noble. Now you can either assassinate him and get the job done saving many of your men's lives and even the enemy's to or you can fight them head on in a massive siege guaranteeing a bloody conflict. Valor may tell you, "Assassination is cowardly it's better to fight."

I am not asking for spirits to assist us in matter of politics. Only to close the tears.
Spirit can be quite single minded as evidence by Justice who focused on the "pligth" of the mages while ignoring every other injustice around.

Modifié par MisterJB, 21 novembre 2013 - 09:37 .

[Inprea]

MisterJB wrote...

eluvianix wrote...
It still requires a mage to make use of that method.

Not at all. The dwarves use lyrium routinely. Master Wade is capable as well.

Inprea wrote...
Not always above. Justice is apparently a rare happening though. He was already trapped outside of the fade and having to rely upon a mortal body. Are you sure a spirit would be willing to be seperated from the fade in order to help with your cause when it can persue its virtue in the fade?

Faith did so. Perhaps others will as well.

As for an example. Justice considered the circle system unjust even before it came to inhabit Anders. Justice doesn't seem to care that mages may become a threat but rather judges them based on their individual actions.So what if the next spirit of justice you find says. Locking people away because of what they might do isn't just. It has happened once after all.

Valor could be another risky one. Take for example a powerful noble. Now you can either assassinate him and get the job done saving many of your men's lives and even the enemy's to or you can fight them head on in a massive siege guaranteeing a bloody conflict. Valor may tell you, "Assassination is cowardly it's better to fight."

I am not asking for spirits to assist us in matter of politics. Only to close the tears.
Spirit can be quite single minded as evidence by Justice who focused on the "pligth" of the mages while ignoring every other injustice around.

How does using lyrium help in contact a spirit?

Faith acted through a mage though. I believe you're relying on a pretty big maybe there.

As for justice being single minded. That was in DA2. In Dragon Age awakening Justice takes time to speak with the elf girl about her need to repay humans for the injustices she did and to pursue the dark spawn. I may be mistaken but as I recall justice before being influenced by Anders was fairly well rounded in his pursuits. I believe he even mentioned the posessed warden's widow and how he needs to return the corpse to her.