1238 réponses à ce sujet

[Hellion Rex]

The Flying Grey Warden wrote...

Aequitarians and Loyalists unite, for too long our fraternities have been slandered and slashed at by the libertarian scum. They would have you believe that the circles are prisons to be broken, that there should be no regulations on magic or mages, that our freedom should come above the right of life for other non-magical people. They are little more then tevinter idolizers, who would see the magisters blood magic be brought to bear against all free people, mage and non-mage, human and elf, just so they could practice their forbidden arts freely. Do not believe the lies, do not worship their criminal ilk like uldred or anders.

A new circle, a fresh start, is what we shall need in a future. One in which mage and templar and non-mage alike can all exist peacefully and without corruption and mistrust once again.

Total crap. Not all Libertarians worship the ground the magisters walk on. And we are not blood mages either. Well, most of us aren't.

Edit: Although I have been one to dabble on occassion..

Modifié par eluvianix, 13 novembre 2013 - 09:19 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

eluvianix wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Icy Magebane wrote...

Segregation fosters resentment. Mages must be allowed to integrate into the population or they will continue to be demonized, and the cycle of resentment and rebellion starts anew. If the basic templar abilities were commonly understood and practiced by town guards, we wouldn't need to keep them isolated. Add in a few elite guards who specialize in this training, a few basic requirements for mages (compulsory training, phylacteries, etc), and society can move past this conflict entirely.

We face segregation EVERY DAY, and it doe snot breed resentment. What breeds resentment is ignorance and the fear that it fosters.
Giving Lyrium to City Guards are not feasible. First of all, addicting even more people to the stuff is unwise. Secondly Lyrium is rare and expensive, and probably way above the budget of some common city guard. Thirdly why would the Chantry give up trade secrets that would make people less reliant on them?

I mean, at this point, is the whole lyrium thing even that much of a secret?

The Lyrium itself, probably not. How it is actually used and how the talents are learned, probably very much so.

[The Flying Grey Warden]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Icy Magebane wrote...

Segregation fosters resentment. Mages must be allowed to integrate into the population or they will continue to be demonized, and the cycle of resentment and rebellion starts anew. If the basic templar abilities were commonly understood and practiced by town guards, we wouldn't need to keep them isolated. Add in a few elite guards who specialize in this training, a few basic requirements for mages (compulsory training, phylacteries, etc), and society can move past this conflict entirely.

We face segregation EVERY DAY, and it doe snot breed resentment. What breeds resentment is ignorance and the fear that it fosters.
Giving Lyrium to City Guards are not feasible. First of all, addicting even more people to the stuff is unwise. Secondly Lyrium is rare and expensive, and probably way above the budget of some common city guard. Thirdly why would the Chantry give up trade secrets that would make people less reliant on them?

I don't know sir, everytime I see myself segregated from the girls bathroom my blood gets boiling as I shout my ever lasting hatred for woman. My hatred for the eldarly reaches new heights when I see specials on the menus made for them discriminating against my right to the same priced and portioned meal. And i know my brothers from other mothers get into a rage whenever I get some acedemic aid for being part of an ethnicity they aren't and can't apply for.

After all, segregation does breed contempt, no matter what the context be.

[Icy Magebane]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
We face segregation EVERY DAY, and it doe snot breed resentment. What breeds resentment is ignorance and the fear that it fosters.
Giving Lyrium to City Guards are not feasible. First of all, addicting even more people to the stuff is unwise. Secondly Lyrium is rare and expensive, and probably way above the budget of some common city guard. Thirdly why would the Chantry give up trade secrets that would make people less reliant on them?

Ah, someone willing to analyze an idea rather than dismiss it out of hand.  How refreshing.

Yes, I briefly thought about the problem of lyrium addiction after posting the comment... I figured that Alistair saying that it wasn't necessary for learning their talents was good enough.  I'm not really sure how he learned them if he wasn't addicted, but feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.  If it's true, however, then the idea works well enough and there's no economic disadvantage... as far as the Chantry letting go of their secrets... well, Alistair quit.  The Templars aren't even part of Chantry anymore so... why couldn't they just tell people how it works?

But this thread is really focused more on reforming the Circle, so I'm willing to drop the idea for now.

@The Flying Grey Warden - Your remarks aren't useful to this discussion in any way.  Not even clever, really...

Modifié par Icy Magebane, 13 novembre 2013 - 09:24 .

[Hellion Rex]

The Flying Grey Warden wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Icy Magebane wrote...

Segregation fosters resentment. Mages must be allowed to integrate into the population or they will continue to be demonized, and the cycle of resentment and rebellion starts anew. If the basic templar abilities were commonly understood and practiced by town guards, we wouldn't need to keep them isolated. Add in a few elite guards who specialize in this training, a few basic requirements for mages (compulsory training, phylacteries, etc), and society can move past this conflict entirely.

We face segregation EVERY DAY, and it doe snot breed resentment. What breeds resentment is ignorance and the fear that it fosters.
Giving Lyrium to City Guards are not feasible. First of all, addicting even more people to the stuff is unwise. Secondly Lyrium is rare and expensive, and probably way above the budget of some common city guard. Thirdly why would the Chantry give up trade secrets that would make people less reliant on them?

I don't know sir, everytime I see myself segregated from the girls bathroom my blood gets boiling as I shout my ever lasting hatred for woman. My hatred for the eldarly reaches new heights when I see specials on the menus made for them discriminating against my right to the same priced and portioned meal. And i know my brothers from other mothers get into a rage whenever I get some acedemic aid for being part of an ethnicity they aren't and can't apply for.

After all, segregation does breed contempt, no matter what the context be.

Very true. Class differences, sexism, racism. All forms of social separation, and they definitely breed contempt. Frequently, in fact.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Icy Magebane wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
We face segregation EVERY DAY, and it doe snot breed resentment. What breeds resentment is ignorance and the fear that it fosters.
Giving Lyrium to City Guards are not feasible. First of all, addicting even more people to the stuff is unwise. Secondly Lyrium is rare and expensive, and probably way above the budget of some common city guard. Thirdly why would the Chantry give up trade secrets that would make people less reliant on them?

Ah, someone willing to analyze an idea rather than dismiss it out of hand.  How refreshing.

Yes, I briefly thought about the problem of lyrium addiction after posting the comment... I figured that Alistair saying that it wasn't necessary for learning their talents was good enough.  I'm not really sure how he learned them if he wasn't addicted, but feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.  If it's true, however, then the idea works well enough and there's no economic disadvantage... as far as the Chantry letting go of their secrets... well, Alistair quit.  The Templars aren't even part of Chantry anymore so... why couldn't they just tell people how it works?

But this thread is really focused more on reforming the Circle, so I'm willing to drop the idea for now.

Alistairs comments has since been retconned. Even Alistair had to use Lyrium to learn the Templar talents, or at least to maintain them.
And Alistair himself was reluctant to pass on the secrets, because he knew how much the Chantry would disprove of him if he did.

[Icy Magebane]

@EmperorSahlertz - Well who am I to argue with a retcon? Guess I'm working from old intel.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Icy Magebane wrote...

@EmperorSahlertz - Well who am I to argue with a retcon? Guess I'm working from old intel.

It is from the comics, so it is no surprise that many havn't heard of it. But I am guessing that it was done to make it more understandable that Templar talents weren't more widespread. And to make the Chantry seem less malevolent in its control of the Templars (it was even further elaborated upon in the novels, that it was the Templars controlling the Chantry).

[Icy Magebane]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Icy Magebane wrote...

@EmperorSahlertz - Well who am I to argue with a retcon? Guess I'm working from old intel.

It is from the comics, so it is no surprise that many havn't heard of it. But I am guessing that it was done to make it more understandable that Templar talents weren't more widespread. And to make the Chantry seem less malevolent in its control of the Templars (it was even further elaborated upon in the novels, that it was the Templars controlling the Chantry).

It makes more sense, even if I don't really approve of retcons... and now that I know that they've changed some things in the lore, I guess I should do some reading.  Not looking forward to that.

[EmperorSahlertz]

When retcons are used to make the world more believable I approve. In this case, it certainly helped in the matter. Before it was extremely unbelievable that Templar talents weren't more widespread if it didn't require Lyrium.
But I think that is more or less the only retcon in the comics. At least nothing else jumps to mind. In any case it was the only major retcon, if not the only retcon in general.

[HiroVoid]

It also explains why Templars can use their talents when they're obviously not mages. So yeah. It just seems like one of those things that was retconned because the original reason it was done in the first place was gameplay reasons which can sometimes be a poor reason for taking it out.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Icy Magebane wrote...
What I am questioning is the validity of the Rite of Tranquility as the sole method of punishment for mages.

Since when is it the sole method of punishment for mages?
Clearly there are all manners of punishments.
Tranqulity is for those deemed dangerous.

[Ieldra]

@OP:
I am not opposed to the Circles as mage schools, nor to the idea that it is mandatory for a mageborn to learn to control their magic and to learn mental disciplines to calm their emotions and face demonic encounters. I am also not opposed to the idea that those who cannot learn these things face either death or Tranquility (unless another means of rendering them harmless is found).

What I am opposed to is this:
(1) That the Circles are run by an organization whose first (!!) and central tenet is that "magic is a corrupting influence in the world" (World of Thedas).
(2) That with few exceptions, full mages can't go anywhere without being accompanied by a member of said organization.
(3) That the decision about how to act against out-of-control-magic is wholly in the hands of said organization, and that this organization reserves the right to kill all mages in a Circle at their convenience.

Yes, independent Circles would be subject to political power games they are shielded from under Chantry dominion, but those powers you can - usually - reason and come to agreements with. You can't reason with an antagonistic religion.

Xilizhra wrote...
Let the mages run it and the templars guarding the Circles themselves, abolish Tranquility and Annulment, and we might be able to start something.

That's where I'd start as well, except that I don't think Tranquility can be completely abolished at this time. If you think it can, please tell me why. 

Edit:
I disapprove of Tranquility as a punitive measure.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 13 novembre 2013 - 10:27 .

[TheKomandorShepard]

I support extermination why because circles are not even half effective in protecing that my solution but also are very abusive and tyrannical so why just make mages pathetic lifes worse when we can just stop their suffering and gaining safety and save money that go for circle and templars pure profit.

[Xilizhra]

The Flying Grey Warden wrote...

Aequitarians and Loyalists unite, for too long our fraternities have been slandered and slashed at by the libertarian scum. They would have you believe that the circles are prisons to be broken, that there should be no regulations on magic or mages, that our freedom should come above the right of life for other non-magical people. They are little more then tevinter idolizers, who would see the magisters blood magic be brought to bear against all free people, mage and non-mage, human and elf, just so they could practice their forbidden arts freely. Do not believe the lies, do not worship their criminal ilk like uldred or anders.

A new circle, a fresh start, is what we shall need in a future. One in which mage and templar and non-mage alike can all exist peacefully and without corruption and mistrust once again.

Too late. The traitors lost the vote and the Aequitarians have already united with the Libertarians.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Xilizhra wrote...

The Flying Grey Warden wrote...

Aequitarians and Loyalists unite, for too long our fraternities have been slandered and slashed at by the libertarian scum. They would have you believe that the circles are prisons to be broken, that there should be no regulations on magic or mages, that our freedom should come above the right of life for other non-magical people. They are little more then tevinter idolizers, who would see the magisters blood magic be brought to bear against all free people, mage and non-mage, human and elf, just so they could practice their forbidden arts freely. Do not believe the lies, do not worship their criminal ilk like uldred or anders.

A new circle, a fresh start, is what we shall need in a future. One in which mage and templar and non-mage alike can all exist peacefully and without corruption and mistrust once again.

Too late. The traitors lost the vote and the Aequitarians have already united with the Libertarians.

Technically the traitors won the vote.....

[Xilizhra]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

The Flying Grey Warden wrote...

Aequitarians and Loyalists unite, for too long our fraternities have been slandered and slashed at by the libertarian scum. They would have you believe that the circles are prisons to be broken, that there should be no regulations on magic or mages, that our freedom should come above the right of life for other non-magical people. They are little more then tevinter idolizers, who would see the magisters blood magic be brought to bear against all free people, mage and non-mage, human and elf, just so they could practice their forbidden arts freely. Do not believe the lies, do not worship their criminal ilk like uldred or anders.

A new circle, a fresh start, is what we shall need in a future. One in which mage and templar and non-mage alike can all exist peacefully and without corruption and mistrust once again.

Too late. The traitors lost the vote and the Aequitarians have already united with the Libertarians.

Technically the traitors won the vote.....

The Chantry lost any kind of mandate to govern the Circle long ago.

[The Elder King]

I remember reading that Rhys was a Libertarian. Someone said that his views changed to be Aequitarian, but from what I gather people have different opinons based on the side they support. I guess I have to read the book myself to form an opinion.
Beside, the fact that a single mage voted for the secession doesn't mean that all the Aequitarians have the same opinion about the war or the post-war. I'd say that it's likely that there'll be different faction in the mage rebellion, and a struggle for power:

[Xilizhra]

hhh89 wrote...

I remember reading that Rhys was a Libertarian. Someone said that his views changed to be Aequitarian, but from what I gather people have different opinons based on the side they support. I guess I have to read the book myself to form an opinion.
Beside, the fact that a single mage voted for the secession doesn't mean that all the Aequitarians have the same opinion about the war or the post-war. I'd say that it's likely that there'll be different faction in the mage rebellion, and a struggle for power:

The Aequitarians nominated him to be their leader. It's a legitimate representational vote. Clearly they knew he was Libertarian before.

[SgtSteel91]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

I support extermination why because circles are not even half effective in protecing that my solution but also are very abusive and tyrannical so why just make mages pathetic lifes worse when we can just stop their suffering and gaining safety and save money that go for circle and templars pure profit.

I can't see that as very feasible because mages will always be born. Templars are going to kick down the doors of every family in Tedas with a newly born child and see if the kid is a mage or not? And there could be some families who are going to hide their mage children and fight the Templars to not have their children killed. Not to mention the potential for corruption. For example, Bill hates Ted so Bill tells the Templars that Ted's kid is a mage. Templars go to kill Ted's kid and Ted doesn't want that so he fights back. Templars arrest or even kill Ted because he's resisting. Now Bill can take Ted's property.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Icy Magebane wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Icy Magebane wrote...

Segregation fosters resentment. Mages must be allowed to integrate into the population or they will continue to be demonized, and the cycle of resentment and rebellion starts anew. If the basic templar abilities were commonly understood and practiced by town guards, we wouldn't need to keep them isolated. Add in a few elite guards who specialize in this training, a few basic requirements for mages (compulsory training, phylacteries, etc), and society can move past this conflict entirely.

LOLNO.

I wish people would stop living in dream worlds.

All I'm going to say to that is that you have no proof that it wouldn't work.

You mean other than common sense?
Lyrium doesn't grow on trees you know. You wantot jsut magic templar-liek city guards into existence? Together with all the logistical support necessary?

And you think mages can ne fully integrated? As things stand? No.

[The Elder King]

Xilizhra wrote...

The Aequitarians nominated him to be their leader. It's a legitimate representational vote. Clearly they knew he was Libertarian before.

The fact that they have chosen him doesn't mean that all of them are fine with the war. Though considering the situation, I doubt that even the Loyalists don't understand that they have to fight (some to them might leave for going to the Chantry, but not all of them).
I doubt that there aren't going to be conflict for power in the group though, and on how to proceed after the war (in the case they'll win) though. As well as in other topics like the use of blood magic or the tranquility.

[Xilizhra]

hhh89 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

The Aequitarians nominated him to be their leader. It's a legitimate representational vote. Clearly they knew he was Libertarian before.

The fact that they have chosen him doesn't mean that all of them are fine with the war. Though considering the situation, I doubt that even the Loyalists don't understand that they have to fight (some to them might leave for going to the Chantry, but not all of them).
I doubt that there aren't going to be conflict for power in the group though, and on how to proceed after the war (in the case they'll win) though. As well as in other topics like the use of blood magic or the tranquility.

There might be factions. Hopefully all players will have to defeat the subversive ones in order to keep the revolution together.

[Lotion Soronarr]

SgtSteel91 wrote...
I can't see that as very feasible because mages will always be born. Templars are going to kick down the doors of every family in Tedas with a newly born child and see if the kid is a mage or not? And there could be some families who are going to hide their mage children and fight the Templars to not have their children killed. Not to mention the potential for corruption. For example, Bill hates Ted so Bill tells the Templars that Ted's kid is a mage. Templars go to kill Ted's kid and Ted doesn't want that so he fights back. Templars arrest or even kill Ted because he's resisting. Now Bill can take Ted's property.

Yeah....no wait.
Mage talents manifest only at a given age and there are apparently ways to detect mages...so Bill would get a beating for wasting the tempalrs time.

[SgtSteel91]

I still think killing all Mages is barbaric and asking for a Mage Revolt that will be aimed at killing all non-mages.