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[Hellion Rex]

hhh89 wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

I'd say that the templars and the Chantry grow distant in their position on mages, making the Nevarran Accord non applicable anymore. From what I read both Lambert and Justinia tried to outmanouver the other.

It was very Orlesian of them, more or less. I loved the dynamic between the two. It makes me wonder how much they had butted heads before Asunder.

Wasn't Lambert from Tevinter, though?
About the post of Red templars, I hope too that they are just an extremistic faction that don't rapresent all the templars at war with the mages. I'd say that that the red templars might not even be involved in the war against the mages.

Yes, he was from Tevinter. But considering his position, I believe that he must have been working in Andrastian Thedas for quite a while.

[MisterJB]

eluvianix wrote...
Actually, Wynne didn't tell the Divine about the sending to all the Circles. Justinia was unaware until Wynne told her in the Grand Cathedral.

Page 323. Wynne tells her brat (I really don't like Rhys) how Justinia ordered her to send word to all Circles if the research bore fruit. She just feigned ignorance publically.

Modifié par MisterJB, 22 novembre 2013 - 06:56 .

[Hellion Rex]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I think the Templars had just grown too accustomed to having a Divine who were easily manipulated. Divine Justinia is not only not a pushover, she is also a radical. This would take awhile for the Templars to aclimatize to, but the war kinda made that redundant.

I would argue that she seems hardly a pushover, considering her subtle manuevering around Lambert and helping the mages at the end. One man's radical is another's progressive.

[Hellion Rex]

MisterJB wrote...

eluvianix wrote...
Actually, Wynne didn't tell the Divine about the sending to all the Circles. Justinia was unaware until Wynne told her in the Grand Cathedral.

Page 323. Wynne tells her brat (I really don't like Rhys) how Justinia ordered her to send word to all Circles if the research bore fruit. She just had to feign ignorance publically because it might make people realize how much she was sabotaging the Templars.

Dang it. Never mind. Thank you for the correction.

[Hellion Rex]

MisterJB wrote...

eluvianix wrote...
Actually, Wynne didn't tell the Divine about the sending to all the Circles. Justinia was unaware until Wynne told her in the Grand Cathedral.

Page 323. Wynne tells her brat (I really don't like Rhys) how Justinia ordered her to send word to all Circles if the research bore fruit. She just feigned ignorance publically.

I kind of hope she dies in the rumored demon attack that decimates Chantry leardership. Eaten by demon would be quite the poetic demise.
"Mages are to be cherished, not tolerated."
Divine Justinia V- Eaten by demon.

If the Veil tear ends with destroying the leadership of the Chantry, I am still trying to figure out why that would galvanize nations to make you an Inquisitor.

[MisterJB]

I hope Justinia dies in the rumored demon attacks that decimates Chantry leadership and starts of DAI. Death by demon would be poetic.
"Mages are to be cherished, not tolerated."
Divine Justinia V - Eaten by demons.

[The Elder King]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Would be odd to call them "Red Templars" instead of just Templars, if indeed they were ALL the Templars.
But I wouldn't mind if the Templars are indeed all "Red Templars" for as long as BioWare can give thema compelling story, motivation and allow you to side with them then.
If they are going to treat the Templars like they did Cerberus, then BioWare is just putting another nail in their story-development coffin.

While I'm holding my judgement about the RT, the demo didn't show much to believe they'll not be treated as ME3 Cerberus. 
Regardless of this, though, you're right that their own name shows that they don't rapresent all templars. While I'm sure there are some templars loyal to the Chantry, I doubt they took the Templar name as their own and made the others call themselves RT. My theory is that the Chantry's remaining forces took the Seeker name (DA2 shown Chantry-loyal Seekers), and all those that left the Chantry became Templars, regardless if they were Seekers.

[durasteel]

It seems to me--and I could certainly be wrong about this--that if you look at all of the mages outside of the Circle, including hedge wizards, Rivaini seers, apostates, Dalish, and even the so-called "maleficarum" who practice shapeshifting, blood magic, or other forbidden magic, the per-capita incidence of those magic folk rampaging about and harming other people isn't apparently any greater than circle mages who have passed a harrowing and have a templar up their fundament.

Thedas is a dangerous place, and mages are certainly among the dangerous people in it. So are reavers, and pirates, and mercenaries, and assassins, and grey wardens, and templars, by the way. Your average peasant in your average village has as much of a chance of being killed by any of the above as by any other of the above, wardens and templars somewhat excepted.

The problem with the Circles is that they simply don't work. If stripping away the freedom of everyone able to use magic could keep them and everyone else safe from being mage-nuked or killed by demons, then we could at least talk about this in terms of whether the payoff was worth the price. That's not the case. While the Circle's safeguards certainly prevent some catastrophes, its repression causes just as many others.

If you look at the various cultures of Thedas, some repress or even enslave their mages, others are ruled by mages, and there are also some wherein mages are just part of the society, neither imprisoned nor enthroned. Certain conclusions are inevitable: free mages does not necessarily lead to rule by mages; stripping mages of their freedoms does not necessarily lead to safety; and as dangerous as some abominations might be, people can still deal with them.

"The Circle" seems to be a real waste, offering no real benefit in return for stripping mages of their liberty.

Modifié par durasteel, 22 novembre 2013 - 07:16 .

[Medhia Nox]

@durasteel: And yet, the story about the mutant mages born into power and bestriding a world amazed by them... has been told over and over and over again.

[MisterJB]

durasteel wrote...
The problem with the Circles is that they simply don't work. If stripping away the freedom of everyone able to use magic could keep them and everyone else safe from being mage-nuked or killed by demons, then we could at least talk about this in terms of whether the payoff was worth the price. That's not the case. While the Circle's safeguards certainly prevent some catastrophes, its repression causes just as many others.

It is the case. Imagine if Uldred's rebellion had not ocurred within the walls of the Circle.
One could even say that the reason those hedge mages don't cause more magical accidents is exactly because they have to keep a low profile due to templars.
Ultimately, the logic behind the Circle is very sound. Keep mages way from people they can harm and surrounded them with especially trained guards. This will decrease the number of innocents they might kill and the response time of the Templars will be extremely short because they're just down the hall.

If you look at the various cultures of Thedas, some repress or even enslave their mages, others are ruled by mages, and there are also some wherein mages are just part of the society, neither imprisoned nor enthroned. Certain conclusions are inevitable: free mages does not necessarily lead to rule by mages; stripping mages of their freedoms does not necessarily lead to safety; and as dangerous as some abominations might be, people can still deal with them.

This is factually incorrect. There are only two types of society in Thedas. Normal ruled and mage ruled.
Normal ruled are Andrastian societie and qunari both of which use place special restrictions upon the mages.
Mages ruled are all others. Tevinter, Rivain, Dalish, Chasind.

Ultimately, there is only one single instance where mages were not repressed and also did not become the rulers in the DA universe and that is Haven which is not your typical society anyway.

Modifié par MisterJB, 22 novembre 2013 - 07:26 .

[Hellion Rex]

durasteel wrote...

It seems to me--and I could certainly be wrong about this--that if you look at all of the mages outside of the Circle, including hedge wizards, Rivaini seers, apostates, Dalish, and even the so-called "maleficarum" who practice shapeshifting, blood magic, or other forbidden magic, the per-capita incidence of those magic folk rampaging about and harming other people isn't apparently any greater than circle mages who have passed a harrowing and have a templar up their fundament.

Thedas is a dangerous place, and mages are certainly among the dangerous people in it. So are reavers, and pirates, and mercenaries, and assassins, and grey wardens, and templars, by the way. Your average peasant in your average village has as much of a chance of being killed by any of the above as by any other of the above, wardens and templars somewhat excepted.

The problem with the Circles is that they simply don't work. If stripping away the freedom of everyone able to use magic could keep them and everyone else safe from being mage-nuked or killed by demons, then we could at least talk about this in terms of whether the payoff was worth the price. That's not the case. While the Circle's safeguards certainly prevent some catastrophes, its repression causes just as many others.

If you look at the various cultures of Thedas, some repress or even enslave their mages, others are ruled by mages, and there are also some wherein mages are just part of the society, neither imprisoned nor enthroned. Certain conclusions are inevitable: free mages does not necessarily lead to rule by mages; stripping mages of their freedoms does not necessarily lead to safety; and as dangerous as some abominations might be, people can still deal with them.

"The Circle" seems to be a real waste, offering no real benefit in return for stripping mages of their liberty.

In regards to the Circles, remember that we do not have a very clear view on everything. We have only seen 3 Circles out of about 17: Lake Calenhad, White Spire, and the Gallows. 4, if you include the Starkhaven mages. To that end, we cannot truly draw too many conclusions about the ratio of abominations or conditions, because we lack a lot of information.

[Hellion Rex]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@durasteel: And yet, the story about the mutant mages born into power and bestriding a world amazed by them... has been told over and over and over again.

More like feared.

[durasteel]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@durasteel: And yet, the story about the mutant mages born into power and bestriding a world amazed by them... has been told over and over and over again.

What story is that?

[Hellion Rex]

MisterJB wrote...

durasteel wrote...
The problem with the Circles is that they simply don't work. If stripping away the freedom of everyone able to use magic could keep them and everyone else safe from being mage-nuked or killed by demons, then we could at least talk about this in terms of whether the payoff was worth the price. That's not the case. While the Circle's safeguards certainly prevent some catastrophes, its repression causes just as many others.

It is the case. Imagine if Uldred's rebellion had not ocurred within the walls of the Circle.
One could even say that the reason those hedge mages don't cause more magical accidents is exactly because they have to keep a low profile due to templars.
Ultimately, the logic behind the Circle is very sound. Keep magea way from people they can harm and surrounded them with especially trained guards. This will decrease the number of innocents they might kill and the response time of the Templars will be extremely short because they're just down the hall.

If you look at the various cultures of Thedas, some repress or even enslave their mages, others are ruled by mages, and there are also some wherein mages are just part of the society, neither imprisoned nor enthroned. Certain conclusions are inevitable: free mages does not necessarily lead to rule by mages; stripping mages of their freedoms does not necessarily lead to safety; and as dangerous as some abominations might be, people can still deal with them.

This is factually incorrect. There are only two types of society in Thedas. Normal ruled and mage ruled.
Normal ruled are Andrastian societie and qunari both of which use place special restrictions upon the mages.
Mages ruled are all others. Tevinter, Rivain, Dalish, Chasind.

Ultimately, there is only one single instance where mages were not repressed and also did not become the rulers in the DA universe and that is Haven which is not your typical society anyway.

Which one was the mage in Haven? That priest guy? Or were you talking about the Reaver?

[MisterJB]

eluvianix wrote...
Which one was the mage in Haven? That priest guy? Or were you talking about the Reaver?

The priest was the mage. The Reaver was a normal person.

Modifié par MisterJB, 22 novembre 2013 - 07:30 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

eluvianix wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I think the Templars had just grown too accustomed to having a Divine who were easily manipulated. Divine Justinia is not only not a pushover, she is also a radical. This would take awhile for the Templars to aclimatize to, but the war kinda made that redundant.

I would argue that she seems hardly a pushover, considering her subtle manuevering around Lambert and helping the mages at the end. One man's radical is another's progressive.

I said she was NOT a pushover 

And what you say about Radicals and progression, can also be said about terrorist and freedom fighters. It all comes down to how succesful they were (and who tells the story).

[Hellion Rex]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I think the Templars had just grown too accustomed to having a Divine who were easily manipulated. Divine Justinia is not only not a pushover, she is also a radical. This would take awhile for the Templars to aclimatize to, but the war kinda made that redundant.

I would argue that she seems hardly a pushover, considering her subtle manuevering around Lambert and helping the mages at the end. One man's radical is another's progressive.

I said she was NOT a pushover 

And what you say about Radicals and progression, can also be said about terrorist and freedom fighters. It all comes down to how succesful they were (and who tells the story).

Ok, I am inclined to think that BSN overuse has left me blind. This is the third time I have done that today.

[TheKomandorShepard]

durasteel wrote...

It seems to me--and I could certainly be wrong about this--that if you look at all of the mages outside of the Circle, including hedge wizards, Rivaini seers, apostates, Dalish, and even the so-called "maleficarum" who practice shapeshifting, blood magic, or other forbidden magic, the per-capita incidence of those magic folk rampaging about and harming other people isn't apparently any greater than circle mages who have passed a harrowing and have a templar up their fundament.

Thedas is a dangerous place, and mages are certainly among the dangerous people in it. So are reavers, and pirates, and mercenaries, and assassins, and grey wardens, and templars, by the way. Your average peasant in your average village has as much of a chance of being killed by any of the above as by any other of the above, wardens and templars somewhat excepted.

The problem with the Circles is that they simply don't work. If stripping away the freedom of everyone able to use magic could keep them and everyone else safe from being mage-nuked or killed by demons, then we could at least talk about this in terms of whether the payoff was worth the price. That's not the case. While the Circle's safeguards certainly prevent some catastrophes, its repression causes just as many others.

If you look at the various cultures of Thedas, some repress or even enslave their mages, others are ruled by mages, and there are also some wherein mages are just part of the society, neither imprisoned nor enthroned. Certain conclusions are inevitable: free mages does not necessarily lead to rule by mages; stripping mages of their freedoms does not necessarily lead to safety; and as dangerous as some abominations might be, people can still deal with them.

"The Circle" seems to be a real waste, offering no real benefit in return for stripping mages of their liberty.

Well i have to agree and disagree pirates and assassins won't bring end of the world as mages and reavers without mages couldn't exist or were just so rare that would be imposible because if i remember that they need demon to become reaver.So practically any of these peoples won't destroy city or world but mages will.


About circles you have right because they don't work only consume money and time and still we have abomnations runing around also circles limping morally.If new anti-magical organisation instead capturing mages would just get rid of them that would spare money and solve mage problem no more abomnations.So we gain safety and save money.  

Modifié par TheKomandorShepard, 22 novembre 2013 - 07:31 .

[Hellion Rex]

MisterJB wrote...

eluvianix wrote...
Which one was the mage in Haven? That priest guy? Or were you talking about the Reaver?

The priest was the mages. The Reaver was a normal person.

Thanks for clarifying. I have not played Origins in a while.

[EmperorSahlertz]

eluvianix wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I think the Templars had just grown too accustomed to having a Divine who were easily manipulated. Divine Justinia is not only not a pushover, she is also a radical. This would take awhile for the Templars to aclimatize to, but the war kinda made that redundant.

I would argue that she seems hardly a pushover, considering her subtle manuevering around Lambert and helping the mages at the end. One man's radical is another's progressive.

I said she was NOT a pushover 

And what you say about Radicals and progression, can also be said about terrorist and freedom fighters. It all comes down to how succesful they were (and who tells the story).

Ok, I am inclined to think that BSN overuse has left me blind. This is the third time I have done that today.

BSN does have that effect on the mind  
After years of use, I am inclined to question my own sanity.. (attempt the same and expect different results, and all that)

[durasteel]

eluvianix wrote...
In regards to the Circles, remember that we do not have a very clear view on everything. We have only seen 3 Circles out of about 17: Lake Calenhad, White Spire, and the Gallows. 4, if you include the Starkhaven mages. To that end, we cannot truly draw too many conclusions about the ratio of abominations or conditions, because we lack a lot of information.

While true, we've also only seen 1 Dalish keeper and 1 kid at Redcliff, out of all the "apostates" I can remember off the top of my head, who became dangerous abominations. It doesn't seem to be an issue among the Chasind, the Dalish, the Rivaini, etc.

The overwhelming number of hamburger-head abominations we've had to put down were circle mages.

[Hellion Rex]

durasteel wrote...

eluvianix wrote...
In regards to the Circles, remember that we do not have a very clear view on everything. We have only seen 3 Circles out of about 17: Lake Calenhad, White Spire, and the Gallows. 4, if you include the Starkhaven mages. To that end, we cannot truly draw too many conclusions about the ratio of abominations or conditions, because we lack a lot of information.

While true, we've also only seen 1 Dalish keeper and 1 kid at Redcliff, out of all the "apostates" I can remember off the top of my head, who became dangerous abominations. It doesn't seem to be an issue among the Chasind, the Dalish, the Rivaini, etc.

The overwhelming number of hamburger-head abominations we've had to put down were circle mages.

Indeed, in the sense that we dealt with a possible Annulment situation in both games.

[durasteel]

MisterJB wrote...
It is the case. Imagine if Uldred's rebellion had not ocurred within the walls of the Circle.
One could even say that the reason those hedge mages don't cause more magical accidents is exactly because they have to keep a low profile due to templars.
Ultimately, the logic behind the Circle is very sound. Keep mages way from people they can harm and surrounded them with especially trained guards. This will decrease the number of innocents they might kill and the response time of the Templars will be extremely short because they're just down the hall.
...
This is factually incorrect. There are only two types of society in Thedas. Normal ruled and mage ruled.
Normal ruled are Andrastian societie and qunari both of which use place special restrictions upon the mages.
Mages ruled are all others. Tevinter, Rivain, Dalish, Chasind.

Ultimately, there is only one single instance where mages were not repressed and also did not become the rulers in the DA universe and that is Haven which is not your typical society anyway.

Uldred was primarily thwarted by Wynn, who put up a barrier to contain the rebellion. The Templars, as I remember them, were not very useful at all.

The Circle might be logically sound in principle, but it is worthless in practice.

In Rivain, mages do not rule. The seers are sought out for guidance, but the governance is handled by mundane nobility. I am under the impression, though I have limited information, that the Chasind have warrior chieftains who lead the tribes. Their witches would certainly have influence, but not rule. The Dalish are a special case, because while the Keeper does have the responsibility to make certain decisions for the clan, authority also vests within the non-magical Dalish for other matters, and the individual Dalish clansman is a free elf, not ruled so much as led. I am reasonably certain that if a clan of Dalish were to decide they didn't like the Keeper any more, they'd get a new one.

Reducing governance in Thedas to a simple binary "us or them" analysis might be satisfying in its support of your world view, but as with most things in the Dragon Age games this issue defies simplistic summation. "Mages are bad" is as silly an assertion as "mages are good," and reducing this to an "us or them" scenario is absurd.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Well mages are bad isn't silly statement because i doubt that running unstoppable monster what want destroy everything isn't bad thing.Well am i wrong?

"Reducing governance in Thedas to a simple binary "us or them" "
Simple because that what this conflict is as well like darkspawn vs rest of the world "us or them"

Modifié par TheKomandorShepard, 22 novembre 2013 - 08:01 .

[MisterJB]

durasteel wrote...
Uldred was primarily thwarted by Wynn, who put up a barrier to contain the rebellion. The Templars, as I remember them, were not very useful at all.

The Circle might be logically sound in principle, but it is worthless in practice.

The segregation of mages was what prevented Uldred from killing a single civillian. Wynne's barrier seemed quite useless considering we encounter them fending of a demon that got through it.
The Circles works; there are accidents, yes. But the stories we have about the time after Tevinter but before the Circle paint it as a caotic period; and they come from reliable sources such as Genitivi; where Abominations and blood mages were common place. Such is not the case in the Dragon Age.
That was, before the mage rebellion.

In Rivain, mages do not rule. The seers are sought out for guidance, but the governance is handled by mundane nobility.

They do. World of Thedas, page 80. "All decisions envolving the welfare of most Rivaini communities rest solely with the eldest women. The most senior of these women are called seers, who freely practice magic.
Free mages, society ruled by mages,

Their witches would certainly have influence, but not rule.

From "Codex entry: The Chasind."

"They paint their faces and are split into small tribes ruled by shamans like those amongst the Avvars. There are many tales of these shamans having learned their magic from the "Witches of the Wilds"
Free mages, society ruled by mages.

The Dalish are a special case, because while the Keeper does have the responsibility to make certain decisions for the clan, authority also vests within the non-magical Dalish for other matters, and the individual Dalish clansman is a free elf, not ruled so much as led. I am reasonably certain that if a clan of Dalish were to decide they didn't like the Keeper any more, they'd get a new one.

We have never seen a single decision from a Keeper being overruled by a council or a vote or anything at all; even when these decisions were clearly harmful to the clan as a whole such as Marethari during the whole of DA2. Even esteemed figurers such as the chief crafter were being forced to leave the clan because the Keeper wouldn't listen to reason.
If the Keeper can make whatever decision s/he pleases and there is no legal way to overrule these decisions; then the Keeper has absolute power. Therefore, the Dalish are an authoritarian magocracy.
Free mages, society ruled by mages.

Reducing governance in Thedas to a simple binary "us or them" analysis might be satisfying in its support of your world view, but as with most things in the Dragon Age games this issue defies simplistic summation. "Mages are bad" is as silly an assertion as "mages are good," and reducing this to an "us or them" scenario is absurd.

And yet, such is what occurs in Thedas. During its whole history, either normals have ruled or mages have. Some system have been more liberal while others have been more authoritarian but, ultimately, the power rested entirely in the hands of one group.
The pattern is clear.

Modifié par MisterJB, 22 novembre 2013 - 08:13 .