1238 réponses à ce sujet

[Medhia Nox]

@durasteel: The Darksword Trilogy and Harry Potter, The Forgotten Realms (many D&D properties), Wicked, Lord of the Rings, several tabletop RPGs (Shadowrun, Mage: The Awakening/Ascension), Arthurian Legend, etc. etc.

The celebrated mage culture of ultra-powerfuls is so common.  They all have variations - some aren't born - but all of these mages are celebrated and considered special snowflakes. 

If Dragon Age goes this route - the only thing that would make their mages unique - would be that they're almost universally unintelligent (which is opposite of the tradition "wise-man" - but they're mages, not wizards).

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 22 novembre 2013 - 08:10 .

[BlueMagitek]

I don't know if I agree with Mage; the Technocracy has more or less won, and mages aren't really celebrated so much as surviving, with any serious magic causing them to Paradox.

But given that more or less everything was magic in MTW, I'm not sure you can really use it as much of an example at all.

Modifié par BlueMagitek, 22 novembre 2013 - 08:28 .

[Hellion Rex]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@durasteel: The Darksword Trilogy and Harry Potter, The Forgotten Realms (many D&D properties), Wicked, Lord of the Rings, several tabletop RPGs (Shadowrun, Mage: The Awakening/Ascension), Arthurian Legend, etc. etc.

The celebrated mage culture of ultra-powerfuls is so common.  They all have variations - some aren't born - but all of these mages are celebrated and considered special snowflakes. 

If Dragon Age goes this route - the only thing that would make their mages unique - would be that they're almost universally unintelligent (which is opposite of the tradition "wise-man" - but they're mages, not wizards).

Really now? That is rather bad generalization.

[Medhia Nox]

@BlueMagitek: Alright, I concede that one. It's probably one of the things I find the most appealing about that IP actually - and though I may be wrong with some of my choices, I do believe I am correct in the overdone nature of "magic is special sauce" world.

I'm not against it - but I don't think a IP that starts in one, should change to the other. It is one of the things I think makes DA distinct.

I'd be sad to see DA mages just become more D&D mass produced wizardry.

===========

@eluvianix:  Doesn't this Rhys guy even say so in Asunder?  "We know nothign about.... X,Y,Z?" 

Ask Dagna, she's the only character I've seen presented that is educated in magic.

Mages in DA don't show any form of formal education above the average citizen.  And yes, I believe most of them show below average citizens level of intelligence despite being surrounded by massive halls full of books).

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 22 novembre 2013 - 08:35 .

[Hellion Rex]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@BlueMagitek: Alright, I concede that one. It's probably one of the things I find the most appealing about that IP actually - and though I may be wrong with some of my choices, I do believe I am correct in the overdone nature of "magic is special sauce" world.

I'm not against it - but I don't think a IP that starts in one, should change to the other. It is one of the things I think makes DA distinct.

I'd be sad to see DA mages just become more D&D mass produced wizardry.

===========

@eluvianix:  Doesn't this Rhys guy even say so in Asunder?  "We know nothign about.... X,Y,Z?" 

Ask Dagna, she's the only character I've seen presented that is educated in magic.

Mages in DA don't show any form of formal education above the average citizen.  And yes, I believe most of them show below average citizens level of intelligence despite being surrounded by massive halls full of books).

We could make the same assertion about mundanes. Idiocy is hardly monopolized by mages.

[TheKomandorShepard]

eluvianix wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

@durasteel: The Darksword Trilogy and Harry Potter, The Forgotten Realms (many D&D properties), Wicked, Lord of the Rings, several tabletop RPGs (Shadowrun, Mage: The Awakening/Ascension), Arthurian Legend, etc. etc.

The celebrated mage culture of ultra-powerfuls is so common.  They all have variations - some aren't born - but all of these mages are celebrated and considered special snowflakes. 

If Dragon Age goes this route - the only thing that would make their mages unique - would be that they're almost universally unintelligent (which is opposite of the tradition "wise-man" - but they're mages, not wizards).

Really now? That is rather bad generalization.

I would say that many characters are idiots in da hawke , cullen and more but that mages are idiots it is something in it well for example jowan , uldred who ended as meal for demon he summoned , avernous , merril and more character what make deal with demon.

[BlueMagitek]

Yes, the World of Darkness is a fun place to visit - have you looked at Promethean the Created - wouldn't want to live there though.

I understand perfectly, and I think I agree. These mages are closer to psykers than anything right now (well, they have better success rates).

But I do need to disagree about D&D magic though; magic is something that anyone can learn with proper study, faith, or cutting a deal with some sort of outsider or elemental. You have magic naturally (Sorcerers) but that isn't anything special.

Not that DA Magic should be D&D magic. Which is a benefit.

Sorry if I'm not making sense, I'm medicated at the moment. :/

[Medhia Nox]

@eluvianix: Did I say that mundanes were intelligent?

All I said, was that there is no mage amongst the DA mages, that implies the traditional "wise-man".

@BlueMagitek:  At least D&D wizards MUST have a high intelligence.

It's interesting how many people on the BSN act like the mages of Thedas somehow "earned" their magic through some extraordinary gift.  

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 22 novembre 2013 - 08:49 .

[Hellion Rex]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@eluvianix: Did I say that mundanes were intelligent?

All I said, was that there is no mage amongst the DA mages, that implies the traditional "wise-man".

Irving?

Or Avernus?

[durasteel]

Medhia Nox wrote...
Mages in DA don't show any form of formal education above the average citizen.  And yes, I believe most of them show below average citizens level of intelligence despite being surrounded by massive halls full of books).

That kid in Witch Hunt was pretty sharp.

[Inprea]

MisterJB wrote...
We have never seen a single decision from a Keeper being overruled by a council or a vote or anything at all; even when these decisions were clearly harmful to the clan as a whole such as Marethari during the whole of DA2. Even esteemed figurers such as the chief crafter were being forced to leave the clan because the Keeper wouldn't listen to reason.
If the Keeper can make whatever decision s/he pleases and there is no legal way to overrule these decisions; then the Keeper has absolute power. Therefore, the Dalish are an authoritarian magocracy.
Free mages, society ruled by mages.

If he was considering leaving them the keepers rules aren't absolute. It's just the clans choice to follow them. Have we seen any keepers use violence against their own clan in order to force compliance or is compliance something they choose to give?

That is all some of us ask for the mages as well and I don't mean just leave the tower. I mean leave the Andrastian nation entirely. If a mage could say. "Okay to heck with this I'm moving to the Imperium or the wilds." I'd be far less against the circle system. If you choose to be a part of a society I can understand following their rules. However, it should be your choice if you're part of that society. If you don't want to be part of it feel free to leave.

Modifié par Inprea, 22 novembre 2013 - 08:50 .

[Medhia Nox]

@Eluvianix: Avernus does seem intelligent, until you look at his inept use of blood magic. But yes, Avernus is a traditional "so smart you're dumb" type - a la Dr. Frankenstein.

Yes, Finn from Witch Hunt seems to break this mold.

But, there's no need to defend the mages - I'm simply stating that their powers are not based on wisdom, nor any form of formal education, they're simply gifted with some powers. 

To me, that means there is no "extra" reasons to be celebrating these people.

For the narrative - I like the fact that these extraordinary powers also come with a price, and I would hate to see that go away. 

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 22 novembre 2013 - 08:52 .

[BlueMagitek]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@BlueMagitek:  At least D&D wizards MUST have a high intelligence.

It's interesting how many people on the BSN act like the mages of Thedas somehow "earned" their magic through some extraordinary gift. 

Actually, if you're a crazy halfbreed, there's a 3rd party option to base your casting off another stat.  But yeah, Wizards need int.  Other classes have different requirements.

To be fair, they do train it and resist temptation.  Like, you could be given this power and then do nothing with it.

[durasteel]

Medhia Nox wrote...
All I said, was that there is no mage amongst the DA mages, that implies the traditional "wise-man".

You forget Flemeth. Cryptic, powerful, privy to secret knowledge, pursuing an unknown agenda that might save the world, or doom it.

Flemeth is never late. Nor is she early. She always arrives precisely when she intends to.

That said, however, the fact that she perfectly fits this archetype and is clearly unique among magic users does support your assertion that mages, generally, don't fit within this narrative tradition. 

If I had a point, I probably would have made it already. Carry on.

Modifié par durasteel, 22 novembre 2013 - 08:57 .

[Medhia Nox]

I know Flemeth is "supposed" to be that way.

I just really feel she's needlessly, and obnoxiously, obtuse...

It really feels like (to me) that she "could" just tell you things... but that she's just keeping secrets for the lulz (and maybe because Bioware doesn't want to commit).

[Hellion Rex]

Medhia Nox wrote...

I know Flemeth is "supposed" to be that way.

I just really feel she's needlessly, and obnoxiously, obtuse...

It really feels like (to me) that she "could" just tell you things... but that she's just keeping secrets for the lulz (and maybe because Bioware doesn't want to commit).

And I still find her endlessly fascinating. I love her dialogue.

[durasteel]

Medhia Nox wrote...
I just really feel she's needlessly, and obnoxiously, obtuse...

Which is exactly what you expect from the traditional Wizard, right? I mean, Merlin and Gandalf are both known for being cryptic and obtuse.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Flemeth isn't mage ,human or abomnation she is something else as we heard many times...

[Hellion Rex]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Flemeth isn't mage ,human or abomnation she is something else as we heard many times...

In fact, have we seen Flemeth use magic beyond the amulet thing, the healing of the Warden and Alistair, and shapeshifting?

[TheKomandorShepard]

eluvianix wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Flemeth isn't mage ,human or abomnation she is something else as we heard many times...

In fact, have we seen Flemeth use magic beyond the amulet thing, the healing of the Warden and Alistair, and shapeshifting?

Yes but she is hardly human or simple just a mage because her powers are beyond mage powers for example demon isn't mage but have powers.

[MisterJB]

Inprea wrote...
If he was considering leaving them the keepers rules aren't absolute. It's just the clans choice to follow them. Have we seen any keepers use violence against their own clan in order to force compliance or is compliance something they choose to give?

Just because elves have the choice to abandon society, that doesn't mean the Keeper's rule is not absolute within said society. And just because elves choose to comply with the Keepers, that doesn't change the fact that, in Dalish culture, mages are free and mages rule society.

That is all some of us ask for the mages as well and I don't mean just leave the tower. I mean leave the Andrastian nation entirely. If a mage could say. "Okay to heck with this I'm moving to the Imperium or the wilds." I'd be far less against the circle system. If you choose to be a part of a society I can understand following their rules. However, it should be your choice if you're part of that society. If you don't want to be part of it feel free to leave.

Seems reasonable if not for the fact that mages are a valuable, natural resource. They are useful and we can't just afford to have them leave. And, on the other hand, we also can't afford them to be free because that would mean the loss of life, limb and freedom by the normal people.

[Inprea]

MisterJB wrote...

Inprea wrote...
If he was considering leaving them the keepers rules aren't absolute. It's just the clans choice to follow them. Have we seen any keepers use violence against their own clan in order to force compliance or is compliance something they choose to give?

Just because elves have the choice to abandon society, that doesn't mean the Keeper's rule is not absolute within said society. And just because elves choose to comply with the Keepers, that doesn't change the fact that, in Dalish culture, mages are free and mages rule society.

That is all some of us ask for the mages as well and I don't mean just leave the tower. I mean leave the Andrastian nation entirely. If a mage could say. "Okay to heck with this I'm moving to the Imperium or the wilds." I'd be far less against the circle system. If you choose to be a part of a society I can understand following their rules. However, it should be your choice if you're part of that society. If you don't want to be part of it feel free to leave.

Seems reasonable if not for the fact that mages are a valuable, natural resource. They are useful and we can't just afford to have them leave. And, on the other hand, we also can't afford them to be free because that would mean the loss of life, limb and freedom by the normal people.

Keepers rule through what means? If the keepers rule by the consent of those they rule isn't that the most just form of government there is? Ruling by consent of the people. As long as the keeper isn't using violence or mind control to force its clan to do as they will I don't see the problem.

Treating people as resources like that is hardly an ethical argument. If the mundanes are going to force their will upon the mages over such reasons then why shouldn't the mages force their will upon the mundanes? Some might not believe the mages have much chance but the last time the mages ruled Thedas it took a civil war, the first blight, a drout and a slave rebellion to topple them and even then it wasn't a complete collapse. Will the empires of the mundanes hold up so well?

Modifié par Inprea, 22 novembre 2013 - 09:43 .

[The Hierophant]

Plaintiff wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

The point that you have no idea about history or how comparisons work?

Mages are segregated because they are PROVENLY dangerous - for both their safety and the safety of others. This is no false prejudice or some instance of bigotry.

Nobody is "proven" anything until they act.

Restricting people in any way for their potential to possibly cause harm is absurd in every single respect, and the scale of this imaginary potential damage is irrelevent. The mere base concept is moronic.

By your ridiculous logic, bodybuilders could be placed under surveillance because their potential punches would hurt people more than a normal punch. And IT professionals should be kept away from computers because of the potential damage they could do to the computer systems that govern so much of our lives.

Once you start locking people up for what they might do, you already exist in a fascist state.

The capacity and potential for damage that a bodybuilder and an IT could produce in our society is incomparable to that of a mage as the latter lives in a society that lacks a credible system to prevent or track magical crimes, abuse or possessions outside of containment.

There's nothing moronic about quarantining a population of low tier reality warpers who are living gateways into a spirit realm in which predatory spirits actively hunt them in an effort to possess them, so that they could enter the physical realm and victimize more people.

Especially when there's no alternative system or method to containment that circumvents or mitigates the dangers of possession, and magic abuse.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Inprea wrote...


Treating people as resources like that is hardly an ethical argument. If the mundanes are going to force their will upon the mages over such reasons then why shouldn't the mages force their will upon the mundanes? Some might not believe the mages have much chance but the last time the mages ruled Thedas it took a civil war, the first blight, a drout and a slave rebellion to topple them and even then it wasn't a complete collapse. Will the empires of the mundanes hold up so well?

Well where it is stated that something must be ethical.And why mages shouldn't force their will well i would say better that they won't bescause they lost.Still i find circles and "exploitation" of mages as stupid and destructive they provide little benefit and deliver huge harm so it is way not worth it.

Modifié par TheKomandorShepard, 22 novembre 2013 - 09:51 .

[TheKomandorShepard]

and what is okay and what isn't and who says that?