1238 réponses à ce sujet

[ScarMK]

vpacheco1984 wrote...

You know pro-templars remind me of the ****s white people during the Civil Rights movement. You know like the cops who would spray high pressure fire hoses into a crowd of peaceful protesters or sick attack dogs on them. Then there are the others would would beat a black kid to death for being "uppity" or having the addasity to think they were the same as the white folk. You are just like them. Saying it is okay to take everything a black person has and destroy it, such as their homes and business, then hang them from the nearest tree because they dared to be like the good white folk and not stay in their place.

This is perhaps, one of the most idiotic posts I've seen here.

vpacheco1984 wrote...
I know this will be seen as offensive because it is supposed to be.

[MisterJB]

Inprea wrote...
Keepers rule through what means? If the keepers rule by the consent of those they rule isn't that the most just form of government there is? Ruling by consent of the people. As long as the keeper isn't using violence or mind control to force its clan to do as they will I don't see the problem.

The will of the people is not the ultimate criteria to define what is just or unjust. People have a great many faults, people can be brainwashed, etc.
Ultimately, I am not trying to argue if there is a problem or not with Dalish society (altough, if I were, I'd say a system of governance where the ability to shoot fireballs is more important than intelligence has a great many problems) only using it as an example of yet another society where mages were free and ended up as the supreme rulers.

Treating people as resources like that is hardly an ethical argument. If the mundanes are going to force their will upon the mages over such reasons then why shouldn't the mages force their will upon the mundanes?

I did not say it was ethical (altough, everyone is treated like a resource; both mages and normals), I only justified why the rulers of men don't simply allow the mages to simply isolate themselves.
That is Thedas; a never ending struggle for dominance between normals and mages. Right now, the mages are making their bid for dominance just like the normals did a millenia ago under Andraste.
We'll see who wins.

Honestly, Tevinter has a similar mentality. They also wouldn't be willing to just allow all of their non-mage slaves to leave the country. At least the Circle is as humane as possible.

Some might not believe the mages have much chance but the last time the mages ruled Thedas it took a civil war, the first blight, a drout and a slave rebellion to topple them and even then it wasn't a complete collapse. Will the empires of the mundanes hold up so well?

Who knows? But the normals of today are not the same as those who lived a thousand years ago. There have been developments in warfare and weaponry.

Modifié par MisterJB, 22 novembre 2013 - 10:17 .

[The Hierophant]

vpacheco1984 wrote...

You know pro-templars remind me of the ****s white people during the Civil Rights movement. You know like the cops who would spray high pressure fire hoses into a crowd of peaceful protesters or sick attack dogs on them. Then there are the others would would beat a black kid to death for being "uppity" or having the addasity to think they were the same as the white folk. You are just like them. Saying it is okay to take everything a black person has and destroy it, such as their homes and business, then hang them from the nearest tree because they dared to be like the good white folk and not stay in their place.

I know this will be seen as offensive because it is supposed to be. And if anyone of the pro-templars are black and doubly offended well to damn bad.

*more appropriate*

Modifié par The Hierophant, 22 novembre 2013 - 10:42 .

[RobRam10]

Death to the Circles! Death to the Templars! Death to the Chantry! Mages were meant to dominate the lesser minds! Rise my brethren and cast down your chains!

[Hellion Rex]

RobRam10 wrote...

Death to the Circles! Death to the Templars! Death to the Chantry! Mages were meant to dominate the lesser minds! Rise my brethren and cast down your chains!

You know what? Screw it. If they want blood magic, then we will give them blood magic the likes of which they have never seen!!!! Bow down before our might!

[TheKomandorShepard]

eluvianix wrote...

RobRam10 wrote...

Death to the Circles! Death to the Templars! Death to the Chantry! Mages were meant to dominate the lesser minds! Rise my brethren and cast down your chains!

You know what? Screw it. If they want blood magic, then we will give them blood magic the likes of which they have never seen!!!! Bow down before our might!

i want note that nor blood magic or even abomnations in kirkwall helped mages to win with templars they are doomed in this war.

[thetinyevil]

I think the Circle is a lot like Communism because both work great on paper but doesn't work so well in practice.

Modifié par thetinyevil, 22 novembre 2013 - 10:47 .

[Inprea]

MisterJB wrote...

Inprea wrote...
Keepers rule through what means? If the keepers rule by the consent of those they rule isn't that the most just form of government there is? Ruling by consent of the people. As long as the keeper isn't using violence or mind control to force its clan to do as they will I don't see the problem.

The will of the people is not the ultimate criteria to define what is just or unjust. People have a great many faults, people can be brainwashed, etc.
Ultimately, I am not trying to argue if there is a problem or not with Dalish society (altough, if I were, I'd say a system of governance where the ability to shoot fireballs is more important than intelligence has a great many problems) only using it as an example of yet another society where mages were free and ended up as the supreme rulers.

Treating people as resources like that is hardly an ethical argument. If the mundanes are going to force their will upon the mages over such reasons then why shouldn't the mages force their will upon the mundanes?

I did not say it was ethical (altough, everyone is treated like a resource; both mages and normals), I only justified why the rulers of men don't simply allow the mages to simply isolate themselves.
That is Thedas; a never ending struggle for dominance between normals and mages. Right now, the mages are making their bid for dominance just like the normals did a millenia ago under Andraste.
We'll see who wins.

Honestly, Tevinter has a similar mentality. They also wouldn't be willing to just allow all of their non-mage slaves to leave the country. At least the Circle is as humane as possible.

Some might not believe the mages have much chance but the last time the mages ruled Thedas it took a civil war, the first blight, a drout and a slave rebellion to topple them and even then it wasn't a complete collapse. Will the empires of the mundanes hold up so well?

Who knows? But the normals of today are not the same as those who lived a thousand years ago. There have been developments in warfare and weaponry.

I don't agree with the humane part. Especially whenever it comes to the harrowing. Making someone tranquil, which is apparently a state worse then death, just because they aren't one of the special elite is not humane. I wish I could find the source but if I recall correctly there is a codex entry which mentions that the majority of mages don't even get a chance to undergo the harrowing. This isn't due to the mages being weak but rather due to the limited supply of lyrium and relatively high cost.

So you could be knowledgable, skilled and strong willed but as you don't have enough raw magical power you're made tranquil, executed or locked away.

I can just imagine two apprentices roughly the same age growing up in a circle together. They have roughly the same knowledge level and challenge one another. One of them though just has a little higher of a magical stat. One of them undergoes her harrowing and passes. She's excited and goes to visit her friend only to find a tranquil there. The reason she was made tranquil? There wasn't enough lyrium for them both. Now that same mage learns another one of the apprentices she made friends with is going to be made tranquil. Trying to save her friend is only natural as would be wanting to get revenge for her murdered friend.

Then there is of course the mages limited training in self defense if any. People talk of the danger an abomination represent. So you take all the mages and lock them away in a circle yet you don't let them learn to defend themselves. Then when one of them goes abomination well. I can't think of any examples were the templars did a good job of containing them. If we consider the codex entery with the shield from the gallows 6/7 templars abandon their charges. Charges they didn't let learn to defend themselves.

[Hellion Rex]

Inprea wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Inprea wrote...
Keepers rule through what means? If the keepers rule by the consent of those they rule isn't that the most just form of government there is? Ruling by consent of the people. As long as the keeper isn't using violence or mind control to force its clan to do as they will I don't see the problem.

The will of the people is not the ultimate criteria to define what is just or unjust. People have a great many faults, people can be brainwashed, etc.
Ultimately, I am not trying to argue if there is a problem or not with Dalish society (altough, if I were, I'd say a system of governance where the ability to shoot fireballs is more important than intelligence has a great many problems) only using it as an example of yet another society where mages were free and ended up as the supreme rulers.

Treating people as resources like that is hardly an ethical argument. If the mundanes are going to force their will upon the mages over such reasons then why shouldn't the mages force their will upon the mundanes?

I did not say it was ethical (altough, everyone is treated like a resource; both mages and normals), I only justified why the rulers of men don't simply allow the mages to simply isolate themselves.
That is Thedas; a never ending struggle for dominance between normals and mages. Right now, the mages are making their bid for dominance just like the normals did a millenia ago under Andraste.
We'll see who wins.

Honestly, Tevinter has a similar mentality. They also wouldn't be willing to just allow all of their non-mage slaves to leave the country. At least the Circle is as humane as possible.

Some might not believe the mages have much chance but the last time the mages ruled Thedas it took a civil war, the first blight, a drout and a slave rebellion to topple them and even then it wasn't a complete collapse. Will the empires of the mundanes hold up so well?

Who knows? But the normals of today are not the same as those who lived a thousand years ago. There have been developments in warfare and weaponry.

I don't agree with the humane part. Especially whenever it comes to the harrowing. Making someone tranquil, which is apparently a state worse then death, just because they aren't one of the special elite is not humane. I wish I could find the source but if I recall correctly there is a codex entry which mentions that the majority of mages don't even get a chance to undergo the harrowing. This isn't due to the mages being weak but rather due to the limited supply of lyrium and relatively high cost.

I guarantee that there is no codex entry that would validate that claim. It is true that much of the lyrium mined stays with the dwarves (from the actual Lyrium codex entry), but that does not equate to lower amounts of harrowings for mages.

[MisterJB]

Inprea wrote...
I don't agree with the humane part. Especially whenever it comes to the harrowing. Making someone tranquil, which is apparently a state worse then death, just because they aren't one of the special elite is not humane. I wish I could find the source but if I recall correctly there is a codex entry which mentions that the majority of mages don't even get a chance to undergo the harrowing. This isn't due to the mages being weak but rather due to the limited supply of lyrium and relatively high cost.

So you could be knowledgable, skilled and strong willed but as you don't have enough raw magical power you're made tranquil, executed or locked away.

Mages have obligations and standards they must meet but they also have rigths and freedoms that must be respected. It is much more humane than the treatment of slaves in Tevinter. There, non-mages are, literally, things and their mage masters can do absolutely anything they please to them without any fear of repercussions. There was an entry in TWoT where a mage uses a slave for a blood ritual and talks of replacing her as your or me would talk about replacing a chair.
In the Circles, even the most vile of Templars such as Karras have to conceal their crimes for fear of being punished. The mages in the Circles don't suffer nowhere near as much as the non-mage slaves of Tevinter.

Then there is of course the mages limited training in self defense if any. People talk of the danger an abomination represent. So you take all the mages and lock them away in a circle yet you don't let them learn to defend themselves. Then when one of them goes abomination well. I can't think of any examples were the templars did a good job of containing them. If we consider the codex entery with the shield from the gallows 6/7 templars abandon their charges. Charges they didn't let learn to defend themselves.

I distinctly remember seeing mages being trained to shoot fire from their fingertips and also raise magical shields. That is self defense.

[Inprea]

eluvianix wrote...
I guarantee that there is no codex entry that would validate that claim. It is true that much of the lyrium mined stays with the dwarves (from the actual Lyrium codex entry), but that does not equate to lower amounts of harrowings for mages.

That was a head ache. I knew I had read it somewhere but couldn't be certain. I know I was shocked when I saw it on the dragon age wiki. http://dragonage.wik.../Talk:Harrowing That conversation explains it. Apparently someone put some bad information in the wiki. Well that's one grevance removed by correct information.

[Inprea]

MisterJB wrote...

Inprea wrote...
I don't agree with the humane part. Especially whenever it comes to the harrowing. Making someone tranquil, which is apparently a state worse then death, just because they aren't one of the special elite is not humane. I wish I could find the source but if I recall correctly there is a codex entry which mentions that the majority of mages don't even get a chance to undergo the harrowing. This isn't due to the mages being weak but rather due to the limited supply of lyrium and relatively high cost.

So you could be knowledgable, skilled and strong willed but as you don't have enough raw magical power you're made tranquil, executed or locked away.

Mages have obligations and standards they must meet but they also have rigths and freedoms that must be respected. It is much more humane than the treatment of slaves in Tevinter. There, non-mages are, literally, things and their mage masters can do absolutely anything they please to them without any fear of repercussions. There was an entry in TWoT where a mage uses a slave for a blood ritual and talks of replacing her as your or me would talk about replacing a chair.
In the Circles, even the most vile of Templars such as Karras have to conceal their crimes for fear of being punished. The mages in the Circles don't suffer nowhere near as much as the non-mage slaves of Tevinter.

Then there is of course the mages limited training in self defense if any. People talk of the danger an abomination represent. So you take all the mages and lock them away in a circle yet you don't let them learn to defend themselves. Then when one of them goes abomination well. I can't think of any examples were the templars did a good job of containing them. If we consider the codex entery with the shield from the gallows 6/7 templars abandon their charges. Charges they didn't let learn to defend themselves.

I distinctly remember seeing mages being trained to shoot fire from their fingertips and also raise magical shields. That is self defense.

The abuses of one group don't justify the abuses of another. Especially when the groups don't have anything to do with one another. It most assuredly doesn't make it the most humane method possible.

What you mentioned is learning to cast spells not self defense. Standing around and punching the air doesn't prepare you to step into a boxing ring and neither does punching a punching bag. Self defense is something the circles are resistant to teaching especially when it involves actual combat experience as seen.

http://dragonage.wik...ki/Codex:_Notes

If space is your excuse, I will surrender my quarters. If it is about money, I will hire the appropriate people. I will not graduate another student ignorant of weapons that any ditch-digger can shove into his ribs. We teach them to append ridiculous glamours on parade arms, but they don't know simple steel. That is criminal.

How does the circle respond to a mentor wanting to give his students actual training so they can defend themselves?

Notice herewith that the exercise area on the fourth floor shall serve as permanent berthing for the templar garrison stationed at the tower. Since facilities that accommodate their particular training requirements are already on hand, they will be assuming an even closer watch over Circle affairs. Enchanter Bergin's optional weapons training is canceled until further notice. Enchanter Bergin has additionally stepped down from his teaching duties.

If this mentor was willing to give up his space, his wealth and his time to see that his students were properly trained to defend themselves how effective can this mystic defense really be?

Modifié par Inprea, 22 novembre 2013 - 11:52 .

[MisterJB]

Inprea wrote...
The abuses of one group don't justify the abuses of another. Especially when the groups don't have anything to do with one another. It most assuredly doesn't make it the most humane method possible.

I can rephrase it if you wish. "At least the Circle attempts to be humane."
I still believe it's the most humane method possible while mantaining effectiveness.

What you mentioned is learning to cast spells not self defense. Standing around and punching the air doesn't prepare you to step into a boxing ring and neither does punching a punching bag.

 Being taught by a senior boxer would prepare me to step into a boxing ring. Those mages were being taught by senior enchanters.
You can very well defend yourself if you can shoot ligthing and fire from your fingertips which is exactly what they were being taught.

If this mentor was willing to give up his space, his wealth and his time to see that his students were properly trained to defend themselves how effective can this mystic defense really be?

The ability to become a living flamethrower? Very effective.
The templars were very much right in forbidding those classes. Mages are already dangerous enough, there is certainly no need to have them learning how to wield steel weapons.
Maybe that mentor just wanted mages to be even more dangerous.

[billy the squid]

vpacheco1984 wrote...

You know pro-templars remind me of the ****s white people during the Civil Rights movement. You know like the cops who would spray high pressure fire hoses into a crowd of peaceful protesters or sick attack dogs on them. Then there are the others would would beat a black kid to death for being "uppity" or having the addasity to think they were the same as the white folk. You are just like them. Saying it is okay to take everything a black person has and destroy it, such as their homes and business, then hang them from the nearest tree because they dared to be like the good white folk and not stay in their place.

I know this will be seen as offensive because it is supposed to be.

Wow, I've read some utterly stupid drivel and crazy crap on here, but you sir. You deserve a prize.

Modifié par billy the squid, 23 novembre 2013 - 12:20 .

[PinkysPain]

Bardox9 wrote...
logical

That word ... I don't think it means what you think it means.

For the mage supporter, freedom is a noble ideal but Thedas is not an ideal world. Loghain, Meredith, Orsino, and Anders were all driven by noble ideals and all lead to disaster. The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

That proverb ... I don't think it means what you think it means. Freedom is not an intention, it's a cause ... a cause some would even put above the general wellfare.

Your reasoning is very muddy ... as the reasoning of consequentialists/utalitarianists always tends to be.

[Lord Raijin]

ScarMK wrote...
Good for you, but you seem to think good pure hearted mages are an instant majority, especially when them being locked up.  If they want freedom as badly as Raijin says and are clearly willing to do violence for said freedom, what makes you think they'll act like everything is roses and rainbows when they get out?

"We got our freedom and don't live in a tower anymore, everything is all cool bros"
Ugh, I'd hate to imagine how much the economy would tank.

They can't act like everything is roses and rainbows when they finally achieve their goals and become an apostate under Chantries law. They would be hunted down by the templars and depending on the situation even seekers would get involved, which they're now involved in this mage/templar war.

Morrigan and Flemeth would ocassionally have to deal with the Templars because of their status. Fortunately for them they can defend themselves.

[Vit246]

vpacheco1984 wrote...

You know pro-templars remind me of the ****s white people during the Civil Rights movement. You know like the cops who would spray high pressure fire hoses into a crowd of peaceful protesters or sick attack dogs on them. Then there are the others would would beat a black kid to death for being "uppity" or having the addasity to think they were the same as the white folk. You are just like them. Saying it is okay to take everything a black person has and destroy it, such as their homes and business, then hang them from the nearest tree because they dared to be like the good white folk and not stay in their place.

The analogy needs work and rephrasing but there is at least a small amount of truth to this.

Modifié par Vit246, 23 novembre 2013 - 12:46 .

[PinkysPain]

MisterJB wrote...
I still believe it's the most humane method possible while mantaining effectiveness.

You can believe what you want, but you can never be certain ... you are making judgement based on your intuition about the outcome of your actions.

I'm more of a Rorschach type in RPGs ... I don't care if the world doesn't want to reward doing the right thing, you'll have to kill me to stop doing what I think is right (or make me stop playing your games if you don't want to give my avatar the option, as Bioware did in ME3 originally). I can be certain in that in a way you never can be, since I only have to take into account my actions themselves and not the (far removed) consequences.

Mages for life yo.

Modifié par PinkysPain, 23 novembre 2013 - 12:48 .

[The Hierophant]

lulz

[Inprea]

MisterJB wrote...

Inprea wrote...
The abuses of one group don't justify the abuses of another. Especially when the groups don't have anything to do with one another. It most assuredly doesn't make it the most humane method possible.

I can rephrase it if you wish. "At least the Circle attempts to be humane."
I still believe it's the most humane method possible while mantaining effectiveness.

What you mentioned is learning to cast spells not self defense. Standing around and punching the air doesn't prepare you to step into a boxing ring and neither does punching a punching bag.

 Being taught by a senior boxer would prepare me to step into a boxing ring. Those mages were being taught by senior enchanters.
You can very well defend yourself if you can shoot ligthing and fire from your fingertips which is exactly what they were being taught.

If this mentor was willing to give up his space, his wealth and his time to see that his students were properly trained to defend themselves how effective can this mystic defense really be?

The ability to become a living flamethrower? Very effective.
The templars were very much right in forbidding those classes. Mages are already dangerous enough, there is certainly no need to have them learning how to wield steel weapons.
Maybe that mentor just wanted mages to be even more dangerous.

I can agree that the circle attempts to be humane however have we been to the imperium? We've seen some abusive magisters but we've seen some abusive templars as well. How likely are we to see the more benevolent magisters outside of the imperium anyway? They have their people to see to. I don't believe it's fair to judge the imperium until we've had a good look at how the average mundane there lives anymore then we should judge every circle by the gallows.

I remember those senior enchanters standing there and shooting fire at their students and in one case the enchanter telling the student they're other ways of creating fire. Knowing how to cast the spell doesn't mean knowing how to use it in combat especially when faced with an abomination. An abomination doesn't need to just rely upon magic after all and neither does a demon.

The ability to become a living flamethrow against an abomination or a demon made of fire? I don't believe it's effective enough. If the mages are going to defend themselves from abominations and the random demon they need actual combat training. They need to learn how to not just cast spells but to move and cast to keep an enemy that can rip them apart if it gets within melee range back. If the templars can't be relied upon to protect the mages from abominations and demons consistantly then the mages need to be taught to fight well enough to protect themselves and their fellows.

[MisterJB]

eluvianix wrote...

RobRam10 wrote...

Death to the Circles! Death to the Templars! Death to the Chantry! Mages were meant to dominate the lesser minds! Rise my brethren and cast down your chains!

You know what? Screw it. If they want blood magic, then we will give them blood magic the likes of which they have never seen!!!! Bow down before our might!

[PinkysPain]

The sisters use magic ...

[Hellion Rex]

MisterJB wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

RobRam10 wrote...

Death to the Circles! Death to the Templars! Death to the Chantry! Mages were meant to dominate the lesser minds! Rise my brethren and cast down your chains!

You know what? Screw it. If they want blood magic, then we will give them blood magic the likes of which they have never seen!!!! Bow down before our might!

I have waited far too long for this...

[DKJaigen]

MisterJB wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

RobRam10 wrote...

Death to the Circles! Death to the Templars! Death to the Chantry! Mages were meant to dominate the lesser minds! Rise my brethren and cast down your chains!

You know what? Screw it. If they want blood magic, then we will give them blood magic the likes of which they have never seen!!!! Bow down before our might!

You know i find it hillarious that you continually use  warhammer 40 k images. you know the same wh40k wherr the imperium is losing the war agains a foe they do not understand and dont want to understand because they are to blinded by their own religious stupidity, biggotery and internal corruption. And they could actually win the war if theri where willing to change.

So they are like templars, but templars are even less intelligent.

[wolfhowwl]

vpacheco1984 wrote...
You know pro-templars remind me of the ****s white people during the Civil Rights movement. You know like the cops who would spray high pressure fire hoses into a crowd of peaceful protesters or sick attack dogs on them. Then there are the others would would beat a black kid to death for being "uppity" or having the addasity to think they were the same as the white folk. You are just like them. Saying it is okay to take everything a black person has and destroy it, such as their homes and business, then hang them from the nearest tree because they dared to be like the good white folk and not stay in their place.

I know this will be seen as offensive because it is supposed to be.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA