1238 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

MisterJB wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
Tevinter, as before, I suspect.

And this despite one of the concept arts already depicting some mage unnafilliated with Tevinter resorting to blood magic.

Indeed, for heroic defensive reasons. Kudos.

[dragonflight288]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

So what is the point of even having the Harrowing then, if it does not guarantee that you can always fight off possession? Just because you can do it once does not mean you will always be so lucky.

What is the point of having a final test for a driver's license? It is not the test that teaches you, it is the whole process up to the test that is important.

What do you think the mages learn during all those years they are in the Circle prior to their Harrowing? They of course learn to handle their magic. The Harrowing is simply a final test, used to prove that they have actually learned something. It is in itself not supposed to teach anyhting, or make the mage immune. It is supposed to be proof to the world, that the amge can handle himself, and that he has learned during his stay in the Circle.

So is the initiation ritual. In Kingdoms of Amalur, initiates have to train for years before they are even considered ready for the initiation test, but they go in there fully prepared and trained, but since it makes you face an aspect of your own potential, the circumstances and exact nature of the test are fluid and change from person to person, so in order to survive that test, you have to prove adaptable, skilled, show they can think on the fly, all the while facing some aspect of themselves.

I know such a test or a variant thereof does not exist in the DA universe, but it's an idea on what could be done if such a test could be devised. If you master those skills, you are just as, probably even more prepared as a mage than what the Harrowing does.

I recognize that the rules and risks of magic are very different compared to the two franchises, but I feel that the Harrowing, a test meant to put you face to face with a demon, is inherently flawed as a test for a few reasons.

One, they keep it secret from all apprentices up until they are dragged out of bed and taken to the Harrowing chamber, where they'll either die, be made tranquil or advance past apprenticeship.

Two, if mages were truly in as much danger of being possessed as the chantry and the templar claim, why haven't we seen all the apprentices become abominations in their sleep? They aren't fully trained, they haven't faced demons before, and yet they go to the Fade every single night when they dream. A somniari is different, but the average mage hasn't been shown to be at any more risk than non-mages until the Harrowing itself.

Three, all the Harrowing truly does is show that a mage has the capacity to resist a demon. It does nothing to guarantee the character, integrity or emotional health of the mages in question. The mage is told right from the beginning that if they fail, they'll die. They may already be planning on becoming maleficar or communing with demons like Tahrone, nor does it do anything to show mages aren't training to become blood mages like DuPuis, Quentin or debatedly Orsino, and I say debated because it isn't confirmed if he was an academic blood mage who never practiced or a practicing blood mage before the Annulment in Kirkwall. And since they're told from the beginning, all they have to do is resist once, as they know there's a sword poised to strike the moment they fail. Once the Harrowing is done, the sword is removed, or at least given greater distance between you and the templar wielding it, and the motivation to succeed no longer feels like a life-or-death struggle.

In the end, we have seen just as many, if not more abominations in two games from Harrowed mages than unharrowed ones, so the Harrowing is inefficient as a measure of ability for mages. Which is why I suggested another system that is also potentially lethal, as a possible alternative should such a means be developed. It doesn't exist now, but if it can be developed, then I think it would be better than the Harrowing.

Again the Harrowing is not supposed to be guarentee that mages will never become possessed. It is a TEST. The actual safety measures are the trainning they recieve throughout their life. But agian, there are no guarentees. Whenever we hae witnessed a harrowed mage fail and become an Abomination, they have been victims of extreme circumstances.
The Harrowing is done the way it is, to better emulate an actual encounter with a demon. It will come when you are the least prepared and it you will (maybe) not know what it is, or want. Some apprentices also have to struggle with demons their entire lives, well before their Harrowing. If the apprentices are not driven insane, or udnertake the Rite of Tranquility, then I have no doubt the Harrowing will be a breeze for them. It is the apprentices who are not yet powerful enough to attract demons that really has to be tested, since all they will know of demons, would be what they have read about them. They will lack any experience going into the rest of their life, and the Harrowing gives them this kind of experience in a controlled environment.

And if it is not the lethality of the Harrowing you have something against, then I honestly cannot understand your protests. What exactly would your test prove, that the Harrowing doesn't, and if it also endangers the apprentices life, then what would be the purpose?

I recognize the Harrowing is a test. A test that not every mage goes through because if they're conisdered weak, they are forcibly made tranquil. And if you fail, you become an abomination and get killed.

What I suggested is also a test, one that can potentially be lethal if you are unprepared, but also one that you can take when you feel ready for it, so there are no forcible tranquilizations for being weak, and if you fail, there is just as much a chance to survive and recover as there is to die, and if you do survive you can retake the test and it will not be the same. It forces you to be prepared for almost any eventuality as you are facing your own potential.

Your weaknesses are what Pride, Desire and Sloth demons will prey upon. Your emotional attachments, your sense of worth and what it revolves around, your desires, and they will offer those things as a way to tempt you. If you face an aspect of your own potential, and forced to face those things a demon will prey upon, then there is no need to face the demon in the first place, you are your own demon, both literally and metaphorically.

I suppose this test mainly subscribes to the philosophy of "You must know yourself before you know the world," or something similar, and I'm mostly advocating a less lethal but just as effective measure that allows mages to show their ability and what they've learned while also learning something of themselves in the process, and let them also see what they can accomplish if they're willing to work hard for it.

And for those who are only catching on to this, you can go to pages one and two to see my idea being discussed when I originally suggested it, and where my inspiration came from.

[MisterJB]

Xilizhra wrote...
Indeed, for heroic defensive reasons. Kudos.

You automatically assume the mages are the heros in the picture in question despite not knowing a damn thing about the people being represented.
But, fine, that's your point of view, keep it. Unlike you, I wouldn't want to ruin the franchise for a large part of the fanbase.
Point being, that there will be blood mages amongst the rebellion. Blood mages that we will, most likely, have the opportunity to kill.

[Xilizhra]

MisterJB wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
Indeed, for heroic defensive reasons. Kudos.

You automatically assume the mages are the heros in the picture in question despite not knowing a damn thing about the people being represented.
But, fine, that's your point of view, keep it. Unlike you, I wouldn't want to ruin the franchise for a large part of the fanbase.
Point being, that there will be blood mages amongst the rebellion. Blood mages that we will, most likely, have the opportunity to kill.

But not the requirement to do so, I suspect. Unlike, it seems, the Red Templars. May no templar remain outside them or the Chantry.

[The Elder King]

Xilizhra wrote...
Misleading has happened before, and frankly, I'll take that over the alternative.

I know you would. I woudn't, and I'd be disappointed twice, since I want this conflict to be neutral and I don't like being mislead.
But I don't see any reason why they'd to that, so I'm fine for the moment. Bioware marketing didn't have problems in marketing Cerberus's role in ME3, which screw up many people. 

Modifié par hhh89, 13 novembre 2013 - 06:05 .

[Xilizhra]

Merrill is a good person, but her use of blood and dark magic led to much turmoil for her and the death of her Keeper.

Keeper's fault completely.

Crazy blood mages could lead to the whole entire Circle in Ferelden to be destroyed. People don't even need crazy intentions, this can happen any time.

Botched demon summoning. Admittedly, that's probably the dumbest kind of blood magic.

The city of Redcliffe got ravaged because a young child got posessed.

Not blood magic, to my knowledge.

These are just a few of the many examples of how blood magic and the darker elements of magic can lead to destruction, no matter how good or innocent the mage that either uses it intentionally or has it accidently happen to them is. For all we know, the guy in the picture could've been leading a cult and the Templars have discovered his location.

The art style, juxtaposition and focus make this incredibly unlikely. It's like expecting someone to see George Washington crossing the Delaware as a genocidal dark messiah.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 13 novembre 2013 - 06:05 .

[Ieldra]

I read "Asunder" as being moderately in favor of the mage cause. All the sympathetic characters end up as moderately supporting it or at least not opposing it in the end, including Divine Justinia, while the extremists on both sides disqualify themselves. I think it can't be denied that the story itself takes a stance that the status quo should change at least somewhat in favor of the mages.

I also read "Asunder" as challenging the fundamentals of a mage's existence within the system, by Rhys' statement "We know nothing of Tranquility, or of demons, or even our own limitations. Whatever comes next, we will only survive if we learn to look upon it with new eyes"

Which means that I expect DAI's story to change these fundamentals in such a way that much of the debates we've been having here will become meaningless. Taking sides will not be necessary because when the story is over, the sides we've become used to will have shifted and changed beyond recognition. And high time for that, too, IMO. The mage/templar debates have become a little old.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 13 novembre 2013 - 06:07 .

[Xilizhra]

Ieldra2 wrote...

I read "Asunder" as being moderately in favor of the mage cause. All the sympathetic characters end up as moderately supporting it or at least not opposing it in the end, including Divine Justinia, while the extremists on both sides disqualify themselves. I think it can't be denied that the story itself takes a stance that the status quo should change at least somewhat in favor of the mages.

I also read "Asunder" as challenging the fundamentals of a mage's existence within the system, by Rhys' statement "We know nothing of Tranquility, or of demons, or even our own limitations. Whatever comes next, we will only survive if we learn to look upon it with new eyes"

Which means that I expect DAI's story to change these fundamentals in such a way that much of the debates we've been having here will become meaningless. Taking sides will not be necessary because when the story is over, the sides we've become used to will have shifted and changed beyond recognition.

Something else quite probable, that would let them shimmy out of the issue rather gracefully.

[Ieldra]

Xilizhra wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

I read "Asunder" as being moderately in favor of the mage cause. All the sympathetic characters end up as moderately supporting it or at least not opposing it in the end, including Divine Justinia, while the extremists on both sides disqualify themselves. I think it can't be denied that the story itself takes a stance that the status quo should change at least somewhat in favor of the mages.

I also read "Asunder" as challenging the fundamentals of a mage's existence within the system, by Rhys' statement "We know nothing of Tranquility, or of demons, or even our own limitations. Whatever comes next, we will only survive if we learn to look upon it with new eyes"

Which means that I expect DAI's story to change these fundamentals in such a way that much of the debates we've been having here will become meaningless. Taking sides will not be necessary because when the story is over, the sides we've become used to will have shifted and changed beyond recognition.

Something else quite probable, that would let them shimmy out of the issue rather gracefully.

I hope they've found what "Asunder" appears to hint at, since not taking sides and simply going back to the pre-war status quo would be immensely boring after all this buildup.

[Xilizhra]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

I read "Asunder" as being moderately in favor of the mage cause. All the sympathetic characters end up as moderately supporting it or at least not opposing it in the end, including Divine Justinia, while the extremists on both sides disqualify themselves. I think it can't be denied that the story itself takes a stance that the status quo should change at least somewhat in favor of the mages.

I also read "Asunder" as challenging the fundamentals of a mage's existence within the system, by Rhys' statement "We know nothing of Tranquility, or of demons, or even our own limitations. Whatever comes next, we will only survive if we learn to look upon it with new eyes"

Which means that I expect DAI's story to change these fundamentals in such a way that much of the debates we've been having here will become meaningless. Taking sides will not be necessary because when the story is over, the sides we've become used to will have shifted and changed beyond recognition.

Something else quite probable, that would let them shimmy out of the issue rather gracefully.

I hope they've found what "Asunder" appears to hint at, since not taking sides and simply going back to the pre-war status quo would be immensely boring after all this buildup.

I'm effectively certain that they won't do so, precisely because of how boring it would be.

[dragonflight288]

@ Mad Hanar

Is there evidence at all that the Circles are effective at preventing blood mages and abominations? Is there any data in the lore at all that the very existence of the Circle's actually decrease the number of blood mages and abominations?

If there is no data, no such claim can be made.

[caradoc2000]

I support the Circle

So does this guy.

Modifié par caradoc2000, 13 novembre 2013 - 06:24 .

[TheKomandorShepard]

The Mad Hanar wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

@ Mad Hanar

Is there evidence at all that the Circles are effective at preventing blood mages and abominations? Is there any data in the lore at all that the very existence of the Circle's actually decrease the number of blood mages and abominations?

If there is no data, no such claim can be made.

No, however, there aren't any better ideas out there and something needs to be done about the dangers of magic.

Keep in mind that it wasn't the Templars fault that the events of Broken Circle happened, it was a power hungry mage.

There is kill all mages then no one complains.

[MisterJB]

Xilizhra wrote...
But not the requirement to do so, I suspect. Unlike, it seems, the Red Templars. May no templar remain outside them or the Chantry.

The mandatory Templar enemies on Ander's recruitment mission did not prevent the many, many mandatory mage enemies on all three acts; with the great majority of them being Free Marchers.
In fact, I can recall three quests where the only mages who are not mandatory enemies are the ones who didn't practice blood magic.
This time, it should be no different.

[Medhia Nox]

@dragonflight288: How about the time before the first Inquisition when mages ran around without a centralized system of control?

By what accounts we have - a bit of a hell on Thedas.

[Xilizhra]

Naturally, Blood Magic is not the only issue when magic is concerned. Mages are completely and permanently tied to the veil and the risk of posession at a young age is strong. You can argue who is at fault all you want, but the Circle is designed to insure that this risk is minimized as much as possible, and that if the worst should happen, then it can be contained. Naturally, as the Ferelden Circle demonstrated, this is an imperfect science. However, the fact remains that many times when we have seen a Mage have access to blood magic, or when a mage is not properly monitered, many people die. Whether it was Merrill's or the Keeper's fault matters not. Whether they didn't properly summon their demons in Ferelden matters not. Whether Redcliffe was a result of blood magic matters not. What does matter is that magic is an inhertently dangerous thing that takes years upon years of disciplined training to learn how to control, if a person is strong willed enough. The Circle is simply a logical means of education, observation, control and prevention. It is the world's first and last line of defense against a large amount of blood magic and posession.

Noted. Absolutely none of this requires the Chantry, Circle or templars as they are now.

In fact, I can recall three quests where the only mages who are not mandatory enemies are the ones who didn't practice blood magic.

In fact, you recall none whatsoever, as Merrill, for instance, is never a mandatory enemy. Neither is Alain.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@dragonflight288: How about the time before the first Inquisition when mages ran around without a centralized system of control?

By what accounts we have - a bit of a hell on Thedas.

you described normal day in thedas:devil:

[Hellion Rex]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@dragonflight288: How about the time before the first Inquisition when mages ran around without a centralized system of control?

By what accounts we have - a bit of a hell on Thedas.

At the time though, bear in mind, we had an Inquisition that appeared to performing witch hunts, which is bound to create fear and desperation in the mages.

[Hellion Rex]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

@dragonflight288: How about the time before the first Inquisition when mages ran around without a centralized system of control?

By what accounts we have - a bit of a hell on Thedas.

you described normal day in thedas:devil:

By all accounts, this was much worse than the current Thedas we are in now.

[The Elder King]

The Inquisition wasn't performing a Witch Hunt. World of Thedas stated that their goal was to restore order. They punsished people that committed crimes, regardless if mage or non-mage.

[MisterJB]

Xilizhra wrote...
In fact, you recall none whatsoever, as Merrill, for instance, is never a mandatory enemy. Neither is Alain.

"Act of Mercy" where Decimus; the confirmed blood mage; is a mandatory enemy; "On the Loose" where the only rebel you are not forced to kill is the only one who is not a blood mage; and "The Last Straw" where Orsino; another confirmed blood mage; is a mandatory enemy plus that female mage on the docks.
I never said that we are forced to kill every blood mage in the game but, there are; at the very least; three quests where the only blood mages involved are mandatory enemies.

[Bardox9]

The original Inquisition slaughtered mages on sight. The Templars only came about as a compact with the Chantry to defend the Chantry, guard the Mages within the Circle of Magi, and hunt down apostates and/or maleficars.

Say what you will about the Templars, but they are a farcry better than the Inquisition. The Circle was created as a compromise. Before the Circle, Mages were killed for no other reason than they were mages. Being born with magic was a death sentence. The Circle is far from perfect and does need some reforms, but it is better than the way things were before. The Circle is as much as prison as it is a haven for Mages.