174 réponses à ce sujet

[KotorEffect3]

Well I have never seen this thread before. Bsn is so original

[redleafchewer]

I just finished my first play through...I waited until I had all the dlc and the time to take it all in.

some needs to beat the goddamned dead horse for this one, and not just the ending.

[Ultim Asari]

So every good person gets a good ending? Great research there.

[Fraq Hound]

KotorEffect3 wrote...

Well I have never seen this thread before. Bsn is so original

Can't be said enough IMO.

It's been two years since the game came out and 8 months since I last interacted with these forums.

However, returning here today... Yep. I'm still pretty bitter about how things went down.

[AlanC9]

I suppose it's better to keep necroing this thread rather than make a new one.

[voteDC]

I've never understood the mentality of people who feel they have to contribute to a thread they obviously have distaste for. They don't even try to talk on the subject but just bash the creation of the thread itself.

Surely being a troll and spammer is worse than people wanting to talk about the ending of Mass Effect 3.

It's a shame for me that a 'happy' ending wasn't included in the Extended Cut. We have a complete "you lose!" ending with Refusal and various degrees of victory for this cycle, so would it have been wrong to have a 'happy' ending too?

[DaringMoosejaw]

Greetsme wrote...

I would more describe the citadel DLC as a pathetic slap-stick humorless comedy, but those to their own.

Regardless of everything else, if you didn't at LEAST crack a smile during the need-not-be-explained recitation of, 'I should go.' and the reaction shot, you don't have a soul.

[Dubozz]

Thank you OP, truer words have never been spoken.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

BioWareMod03 wrote...

 My opinion of this matter

*snip*

I didn't know 'bots had opinions.

[Father_Jerusalem]

voteDC wrote...

I've never understood the mentality of people who feel they have to contribute to a thread they obviously have distaste for. They don't even try to talk on the subject but just bash the creation of the thread itself.

Surely being a troll and spammer is worse than people wanting to talk about the ending of Mass Effect 3.

It's a shame for me that a 'happy' ending wasn't included in the Extended Cut. We have a complete "you lose!" ending with Refusal and various degrees of victory for this cycle, so would it have been wrong to have a 'happy' ending too?

Yes. It would have.

People asked for a "we want to fight the Reapers conventionally" ending, despite being told for the entire trilogy that you can't beat the Reapers conventionally and win. So BioWare gave y'all one, and it still wasn't enough.

I mean seriously, you might as well ask for a pony to come with your copy of ME4 at this point. 

Good lord. I can't believe I come back to BSN after a year away and there's STILL people complaining about this.

Move. The eff. On. Already.

[voteDC]

Father_Jerusalem wrote...
Yes. It would have.

People asked for a "we want to fight the Reapers conventionally" ending, despite being told for the entire trilogy that you can't beat the Reapers conventionally and win. So BioWare gave y'all one, and it still wasn't enough.

Actually most people I've seen discuss Refuse on these boards likes that ending option. So I'm genuinely not sure where you are coming from with that.

Conventional victory...impossible? Difficult but not impossible. If enough conventional fire-power can destroy a Reaper then I find it hard to believe that fleets armed with Thannix cannons would be unable to do so.

Couldn't have just been an ending though. The game would have had to be built around that principle.

Father_Jerusalem wrote...Good lord. I can't believe I come back to BSN after a year away and there's STILL people complaining about this.

Move. The eff. On. Already.

Just as I find it hard to believe that rather than ignore topics they have no interest in, some people prefer instead to spam them and attempt to derail them for people who do enjoy the discussion.

You would think those people would move on as well...wouldn't you?

Modifié par voteDC, 01 février 2014 - 03:28 .

[Ottemis]

AlanC9 wrote...

I suppose it's better to keep necroing this thread rather than make a new one.

Except that it's full of spoilers in the non-spoiler section of the forums.

[q5tyhj]

Oops. I'll say this then, without spoiling anything- the problem with the ending is not that it isn't "happy" or "uplifting" (seriously, a happy ending is usually a cop-out, and takes away from the story), its that its filled with plot-holes, inconsistencies, and question marks, and completely abandons virtually ALL of the themes of the series.

Screw a happy ending, I just like endings that make sense.

[AtlasMickey]

Greetsme wrote...

  I have put countless hours into mass effect, and all that Shepard has been through, he/she, deserved a simple, happy and uplifting ending.  What did you give us?  You gave us the most ridiculous and pathetic ending that was ever thought up by a unstable and defeated mind.
Your games deal in peoples emotions, you should respect that power.  Shame on you Bioware. 

Well, I consider Synthesis to be happy and uplifting, but it is not simple, not by any stretch. 

Mass Effect deals not just in our emotions but our thoughts. You should not spend so much time on this story without thinking abstractly about the nature of AI, the nature of humanity, and their coexistence. 

Modifié par AtlasMickey, 01 février 2014 - 07:23 .

[voteDC]

q5tyhj wrote...

Oops. I'll say this then, without spoiling anything- the problem with the ending is not that it isn't "happy" or "uplifting" (seriously, a happy ending is usually a cop-out, and takes away from the story), its that its filled with plot-holes, inconsistencies, and question marks, and completely abandons virtually ALL of the themes of the series.

Screw a happy ending, I just like endings that make sense.

See I don't understand why a happy ending, Shepard reunited with love interest and friends, would be a cop-out.

You are still going to have death and sickness of a massive scale. You're going to have rising tensions between races over dwindling resources, especially the turians and quarians who can't eat our food.

And that's just in our solar system.

So a 'happy' ending ain't really going to be that happy.

[Rodus Maxumus]

Aethgeir’s analysis of the ending hit the nail on the head in this thread-
http://social.biowar...11/163#17841503

Aethgeir wrote...

@EliotNesss

Nope, in my first playthrough I had exactly the same results as you, right down to my choice of romance!

The only difference was my reaction to the "endings" - and for the very reason you describe: BioWare simply forced someone else's singular favourite ending on us: That synthetics and organics can't co-exist. It is upon that singular perspective that all three endings are based.

And in the game that I played, that perspective is clearly false: [Spoiler Alert] The Joker-EDI relationship demonstrates that organics and synthetics are capable of forming emotional bonds. And reconciling the geth and quarians proves (at least within the context of this particular story and playthrough) that not only are synthetics and organics able to co-exist for mutual benefit, but even share common values and are even willing to unite against a common enemy.

The Reapers by contrast, already embody "Synthesis". They are the product of synthetics, and genetic material harvested from whole organic species - and they're the game's principal villain! In fact I can't think of a single example throughout the entire Mass Effect trilogy where "Organic-Synthetic Fusion" is portrayed in a positive light: Husks, Saren, The Collectors, Project Overlord, even Shepard's implants are forced on them by a known enemy that subsequently has Shepard do their bidding. The reason this concept is so frequently reviled in the series, is because it flies in the face of one of the game's primary themes: Strength in diversity. "Synthesis" implies making everone the same.

Strength-in-diversity has been a recurring theme in BioWare games since Baldur's Gate. As players we're always required to assemble a motley band of colourful characters from all over the place and so ultimately overcome the villain. And it's never been more obvious than in ME3: We spent nearly the entire game uniting the galaxy's disparate people to defeat the Reapers: That IS the primary plot of ME3. Yet all that effort is to... "Deliver"... a Deus ex Machina device... that arbitrarily presents us with 3 "endings"... that are based on a false assumption... and unrelated to the game's primary plotline... huh? It seems to me, that this is the real reason so many players complained that "their choices didn't matter", I'd say it goes beyond that: "playing most of the game" didn't matter!

"Synthesis" makes no sense within the larger context of the game or the trilogy, and that's before you consider that nowhere in the lore or the narrative, is there any indication that the Crucible, Citadel, Mass relays, or indeed any technology can bring about this "change" - hence the complaints about "space magic".

"Control" falls flat for me because it's basically siding with the game's other principal enemy. If I was Shepard and I did pursue this option, the first thing I would do, is use the Reapers to destroy each other! They're simply too dangerous to try to control or keep around for any reason.

"Destroy" was always the natural conclusion to which this game was headed. There was no doubt that we would ultimately defeat Saren; there was never any doubt that we would take down the Collectors. So why would we suddenly make nice and accept the world-view of the intergalactic genocide machines? It is painfully obvious that "destroy" was deliberately made "less appealing", so that players would consider the "alternatives". (That whole "Reaper Code" idea practically ruined the Rannoch story arc for me.) As a writer, if you have to make one of your "endings" less appealing than the other two, than you shouldn't be doing a multiple-choice ending! ME1 didn't need that and it was great. ME2 didn't need it and was also good. ME3 didn't need it either.

I hope you don't take this overlong rant the wrong way. I am NOT trying to ruin your enjoyment of these games. I'm happy for you that you enjoyed the entire trilogy from start to finish. I loved Mass Effect, and I desperately wish I could feel the same way. I just hope that, at least now, you can understand why so many of us were so bitterly disappointed with how it all went down.

[AtlasMickey]

Rodus Maxumus wrote...

Aethgeir’s analysis of the ending hit the nail on the head in this thread-
http://social.biowar...11/163#17841503

No, it really doesn't. I can see where that perspective is coming from but it relies on a very simplistic look at the game's characters and conflicts. It's also verifiably wrong.

Consider that he said the Reapers are already "Synthesis." Reapers do not preserve individuality. They are more properly compared to the "Control" ending.

Consider that he also said that he cannot find any example in the entire trilogy that presents "Organic-Synthetic Fusion" in a positive light. Well how about every biotic ever. They all rely on nano-tech to amplify their abilities. It says it right away in the dossiers in the first game. Then, hello, Commander Shepard? He says Shepard's techno-ressurection was treated as a bad thing, something that was force? Oh yeah, real bad thing that Shepard's life was saved by somene of questionable moral character in order to fight a more dangerous common enemy. And given a ship. And allowed to choose a crew. Did I mention how cool the ship is? Oh yeah I really feel your pain on that one! So sad! Especially when it is literally Shepard's positive energy that makes Synthesis happen in the end? Won't someone please save us from this terrible nightmare that is Synthesis?

Give me a break.

Modifié par AtlasMickey, 03 février 2014 - 10:09 .

[SwobyJ]

Reapers are only a reflection of Blue/Control.

They aspire for connection with Organics (Red) and achieving Synthesis (Green), yet they view themselves as apex beings themselves (Yellow, Harbinger). It's the Catalyst itself, the AI with no organic connections except tangentally (as a collective intelligence), that is Blue/Control. The Reapers themselves try other stuff, under the rule of the 'Catalyst'.

They're not Green/Synthesis though; that's the main point. They're trying for greater forms of it, but they already view themselves as so perfect that it has stalled their development (as nothing is apex, and nothing is perfect).


'Synthesis' is full-on synthetic (life) and organic (life) co-operation. The only distinctly negative aspects about this is a possible loss of individuality, and the force required in order to achieve it, instead of massive yet individual choice to do it (more akin to Rannoch peace).

What, it doesn't require force? It is interesting how the Catalyst's words clash with the whole basic idea of forcing your allies to go under Synthesis.

Reapers do not preserve individuality... ("Ending of first Matrix" -Mac Walters)


Anyway, Synthesis isn't total abomination but parts of it do disgust me enough to certainly not pick it for my MAINShep. I do think that the endings of ME3 are not the be-all-end-all to things, and that we're on a (optional) journey to True Green, and that Synthesis is just part of that.

I don't think anyone picking Synthesis is making a huge mistake. None of the endings are huge mistakes. Even Refuse takes a stand that matters for that story, in a way that Shepard Dies in ME2 never would have.
I do think some endings (moreso Breath/High Destroy and maybe High Control) are more appropriate for most Shepards compared to other endings (Low Destroy/Low Control/Synthesis), but I also think Bioware put in enough foreshadowing for every ending, including Synthesis.

Oh, and I also think that Green choices will be a much larger part of the next game(s), and will not be so much of an abomination to players as before. Shifts to perspective are nice, and that's why Shepard himself has to go. We can choose to remember him and have him help our decisions though.

Modifié par SwobyJ, 03 février 2014 - 05:39 .

[katamuro]

Can we somehow actually bury the topic? I think in the 2 years that this has been going on most of what can be said has already been said and it boils down to mostly 3 points.

1) ME3 ending sucked for a lot of people

2) Bioware made a huge mistake

3) Many of us are still quite pissed about that

Considering those 3 points I would say that the only thing we can do so far is to wait for the future and see how ME4 plays out. IF they **** it up again then we will know that they did not learn their lesson and we have to make a stronger point.

[AtlasMickey]

katamuro wrote...

Considering those 3 points I would say that the only thing we can do so far is to wait for the future and see how ME4 plays out. IF they **** it up again then we will know that they did not learn their lesson and we have to make a stronger point.

You should give up now. You had your chance to be heard with the EC. Now you're just wasting your time.

[AtlasMickey]

SwobyJ wrote...

What, it doesn't require force? It is interesting how the Catalyst's words clash with the whole basic idea of forcing your allies to go under Synthesis.

No, Synthesis does not require force.

Synthesis is a self-organizing framework. If a post-Synthesis intelligence wants to self-organize into an organic form, it may do so. If it wants to self-organize into an artifical form, it can do that too. If it wants to self-organize into a hybrid, it can get very creative. 

There is no requirement in Synthesis for organics to adopt artificial forms or vice versa. It merely requires that they have the capability to do so.

[SwobyJ]

AtlasMickey wrote...

SwobyJ wrote...

What, it doesn't require force? It is interesting how the Catalyst's words clash with the whole basic idea of forcing your allies to go under Synthesis.

No, Synthesis does not require force.

Synthesis is a self-organizing framework. If a post-Synthesis intelligence wants to self-organize into an organic form, it may do so. If it wants to self-organize into an artifical form, it can do that too. If it wants to self-organize into a hybrid, it can get very creative. 

There is no requirement in Synthesis for organics to adopt artificial forms or vice versa. It merely requires that they have the capability to do so.

There is a *requirement* to adopt that framework. You don't have a *choice* to have that new framework.

It's like manipulating a tool to fit into someone's hand, where that hand might accept that, or maybe you'd otherwise get a punch to the face for pushing onto their space. You're forcing it into their hands. If it isn't force, you'd instead hold it out and people would take it as they wished.
Heck, they even visually explained this wrong. If everyone instantly gets the green lines, is there choice involved? Do you think they can change out of it? Why did they get those in the first place? Did anyone ASK for better communication with machines?

Really, the way to compare this is the Matrix. People at the end of that (blasted by viewers, heh) trilogy, had the option to break out (Red), or stay in the Matrix and do with it as they wished (Blue), or transcend it all with the co-existence with synthetics (Green). Neo may have made his big ol' sacrifice, but everyone else was still allowed their role of choice.

~~~

THAT SAID, I still think Synthesis works. Why? Because of my personal belief that the ending is all a virtual universe in a new Reaper anyway, so any virtual being in a virtual world... just having their code basis changed, isn't really 'force' in the way that it appears. It is still not true 'transcendance' in terms of the wider real galaxy, but making it happen in even just one Reaper may be a very positive sign for the possibilities.. as they 'transcend mortality itself' .

So go ahead and optimize the 'galaxy'. It's okay. The next game will carry on regardless . (though I hope it is influenced by the Synthesis decision)

In my perception (which could be totally wrong..):
Destroy = Worse for the Reaper, best for Shepard-body (only with Breath?), most varied outcomes though
Control = Better for the Reaper, better for Shepard-body (has memories still, but isn't at all Shepard), more stable outcome
Synthesis = Best for the Reaper, worse for the Shepard-body (no more Shepard except in 'spirit'!)

I also don't consider the Shepard/N7 that wakes up in the Breath Scene to be not quite the Shepard that we played as. Our journey, especially in ME2-ME3, was very virtual, even though it had ties to real events, so appearing in the physical world may.. introduce complications and another new identity. So Bioware wouldn't be lying. The Shepard Incident occured, and we're onto a new journey.

~~~

"This is your last chance. After this, there is no turning back. You
take the blue pill -- the story ends, you wake up in your bed and
believe whatever you want to believe. You take the red pill -- you stay
in Wonderland and I show you how deep the rabbit-hole goes."

[katamuro]

AtlasMickey wrote...

katamuro wrote...

Considering those 3 points I would say that the only thing we can do so far is to wait for the future and see how ME4 plays out. IF they **** it up again then we will know that they did not learn their lesson and we have to make a stronger point.

You should give up now. You had your chance to be heard with the EC. Now you're just wasting your time.

Conidering the fact the amount of people that have heard of the game and the ending because of what had happened I do not consider it a wasted effort. Also I am not here to start the old argument, I just pointed out my own personal opinion that considering how many people did not like the ending all we can really do is to wait and see what happens. 

[Gkonone]

Bizantura wrote...

Yes, for some the endings are pathetic. (for the millionth time) If you are that desperate go for the MEHEM ending thats what its there for.

It is sad though that Bioware couldn't come up with something the Mehem mod is trying to achieve.
And not sure what your 'desperate' comment is referring to. Desperate for an ending that makes sense?
I was desperate for that once.

[Brovikk Rasputin]

Ending post-EC is great. Get over it.