420 réponses à ce sujet

[Uccio]

Nohvarr, seeing a mage blasting gate with fireball or one ton ogre breaking through is acceptable since both posses believable means to do it. Max 70kg Cassandra does not posses any of those abilities. And for the reference, a ogre had to bash several times a small wooden gate in DAO to get into alienage. Cassandra smashes a huge metal gate two times and crushes it. See the difference?

[TurretSyndrome]

Nohvarr wrote...

I see no problem with removing this arbitrary divide. In fact I like it when a game allows me to use combat abilities to solve problem in the overworld. If I’ve bult Cassandra to be able to Shield bash Dragons into submission, why wouldn’t I expect that ability to be transferable in the overworld. And to be fair, what we’re seeing is still apart of the combat side of things since it’s an assault on a keep.

It's the way RPGs are designed. I personally do not know of even one which can seamlessly transfer abilities from one mode to another. They can hide it, but the change would still be there, the modes would still be there. Using abilities like shield bash to destroy in-game elements is exactly what is happoening in DA: I, it's the same animation, but the "effect" of the ability outside of combat is again, at developer disgression, unlike in combat mode where it is at a fixed level. 

So unless the developers deem it necessary, the Shield Bash might not work in the same way on the overworld as in combat.

Yes, we were seeing the assault part, but the party wasn't necessarily in combat mode(no yellow circles seen), just the combat stance(you could do that in DA:O by activating an ability).

Phew so many words I typed today, time to call it a night. 

[KiwiQuiche]

hhh89 wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...
Cailan sucked, that's why. Well that and he was exhausted and half-dead from all the fighting before the ogre got him.

So in the Dragon Age IP humans at full health are so resilient that their bones don't break when a ogre smash their body in his hands? Got it (I'd like to know how being tired or 'sucked' have anything to do with the a body's resistance to being smashed).
Care to explain why in the same Ostagar the Warden is damaged to the point he was risking death by four-five arrows in the cutscene, but can fight without problems in gameplay with the same (or worse) aumont of arrows in his body, or surviving being chewed by a dragon? Or a Champion warrior being able to repel enemies with his voice?
I understand that people have different breaking point on the realism matter, but let's not pretend that the dragon/ogre surviving is natural. Assuming that the humans' bodies are the same as our world, you can't survive those events.
I want to point out that I don't like the gate bashing. My point is that irrealistic skills and animations were already present in the first game of the IP. Good for you that you didn't have problem with them.

Why are you getting all snotty at me?

It's a damn gate, it's not like she flew 50 feet up in the air and ninja-knifed people. Oh wait

[Nohvarr]

Nohvarr, seeing a mage blasting gate with fireball or one ton ogre breaking through is acceptable since both posses believable means to do it. Max 70kg Cassandra does not posses any of those abilities. And for the reference, a ogre had to bash several times a small wooden gate in DAO to get into alienage. Cassandra smashes a huge metal gate two times and crushes it. See the difference?

Sorry, but I disagree. I’ve just listed specializations that allow mundane humans to do extraordinary things, I mean regenerating from wounds only because you’re angry? That is not possible for a normal human, neither is using magic to cleans an area of hostile effects. So if her specialization or her armor, allow her to do this I do not see the problem.

It's the way RPGs are designed.

RPG’s are changing and in some ways for the better. My first RPG was called Deus Ex, and it’s the game that convinced me to give other RPG’s a try. Creative use of abilities is the hallmark of that game, so seeing it implemented here is a good thing IMHO. Another was Dark messiah of Might and magic (AKA Sir Kicksalot death boots) and campy as that could get I had a lot of fun kicking enemies into spikes, collapsible objects, etc.

I personally do not know of even one which can seamlessly transfer abilities from one mode to another.

It may not be seamless but I can think of one RPG series that does just that, Pokemon (aka Baby’s first RPG). The ‘SURF’ ability which is used in combat can also allow you to ride your Mon across the oceans, and later you can do the same with ‘FLIGHT’.

Yes, we were seeing the assault part, but the party wasn't necessarily in combat mode(no yellow circles seen), just the combat stance(you could do that in DA:O by activating an ability).

I respectfully disagree, I think assaulting a keep is inherently a combat action and their decision to allow combat abilities (with the appropriate level building) to be used in such a manner fits the gameplay. I mean later on the use their abilities to send a group of guards on a wood bridge tumbling to their deaths.

[TurretSyndrome]

Nohvarr wrote...
I respectfully disagree, I think assaulting a keep is inherently a combat action and their decision to allow combat abilities (with the appropriate level building) to be used in such a manner fits the gameplay. I mean later on the use their abilities to send a group of guards on a wood bridge tumbling to their deaths.

Not the point. I watched the video, the party was technically not in combat mode(before they entered the keep), they were in combat stance so Cassandra can make use of that bash ability.

[Nohvarr]

TurretSyndrome wrote...

Nohvarr wrote...
I respectfully disagree, I think assaulting a keep is inherently a combat action and their decision to allow combat abilities (with the appropriate level building) to be used in such a manner fits the gameplay. I mean later on the use their abilities to send a group of guards on a wood bridge tumbling to their deaths.

Not the point. I watched the video, the party was technically not in combat mode(before they entered the keep), they were in combat stance so Cassandra can make use of that bash ability.

I stand by what I said, she's assaulting a keep and using a combat ability to do so.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Nohvarr wrote...

Sorry, but I disagree. I’ve just listed specializations that allow mundane humans to do extraordinary things, I mean regenerating from wounds only because you’re angry? That is not possible for a normal human, neither is using magic to cleans an area of hostile effects. So if her specialization or her armor, allow her to do this I do not see the problem.

Last tiem I checked temaprls drink lyrium...liquid magic. All of their abilities are anti-mage. And the origin of the abiltiy is magical. With sufficient explanation, and if abilities are not too over-the-top, it can pass.

HOWEVER..."it's magic" can only work so far as a nexplanation, especially if you start using it left and right.

Also...gameplay and story segragation, custcenes and combat mechancis and all that jazz.

[Nohvarr]

Last tiem I checked temaprls drink lyrium...liquid magic. All of their abilities are anti-mage. And the origin of the abiltiy is magical. With sufficient explanation, and if abilities are not too over-the-top, it can pass.

If memory serves, Allister is on record as saying he doesn't think the lyrium is necessary for those abilities, and can in turn train the Warden to use them. If that’s true then the ability is not as magical as you suggest. However even if that were true, you’d still have to explain Berserkers and Spirit Warriors.

Also...gameplay and story segragation, custcenes and combat mechancis and all that jazz.

I must admit, I like it when you can use abilities in gameplay and in the story. One of the things I liked about Witcher 2 (and no I am not a fanboy for that game) was the ability to use a sign in combat and in conversation. In combat it turned enemies to your side, in conversation it was ‘The old Jedi Mind Trick’ fusing it together like this was greatly appreciated. The same goes for ME 3 Omega when an Engineer could use their abilities to solve a problem faster. These are the kinds of things I want to see occur more often in an rpg.

[THEFRIGGINDOOMGUY!]

KiwiQuiche wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...
Cailan sucked, that's why. Well that and he was exhausted and half-dead from all the fighting before the ogre got him.

So in the Dragon Age IP humans at full health are so resilient that their bones don't break when a ogre smash their body in his hands? Got it (I'd like to know how being tired or 'sucked' have anything to do with the a body's resistance to being smashed).
Care to explain why in the same Ostagar the Warden is damaged to the point he was risking death by four-five arrows in the cutscene, but can fight without problems in gameplay with the same (or worse) aumont of arrows in his body, or surviving being chewed by a dragon? Or a Champion warrior being able to repel enemies with his voice?
I understand that people have different breaking point on the realism matter, but let's not pretend that the dragon/ogre surviving is natural. Assuming that the humans' bodies are the same as our world, you can't survive those events.
I want to point out that I don't like the gate bashing. My point is that irrealistic skills and animations were already present in the first game of the IP. Good for you that you didn't have problem with them.

Why are you getting all snotty at me?

It's a damn gate, it's not like she flew 50 feet up in the air and ninja-knifed people. Oh wait

It is a METAL gate.

[Wulfram]

Nohvarr wrote...

If memory serves, Allister is on record as saying he doesn't think the lyrium is necessary for those abilities, and can in turn train the Warden to use them. If that’s true then the ability is not as magical as you suggest. However even if that were true, you’d still have to explain Berserkers and Spirit Warriors.

Your memory is right, but in an interview David Gaider said

TUK: The Templar abilities, are they--despite the Chantry's protestations--a form of magic?

DG:
I would say that they are magic, they derive from lyrium, which is magic. The tricky thing there is that the Chantry is awfully hypocritical when it comes to magic, in that there are sorts of magic that they will use. Actually I should take that back, it's not necessarily that they're hypocritical, they don't have anything against magic itself. Magic can be useful, they know the mages are useful. It's the elements of possession and blood magic, all the forbidden magic
where things get really dicey. Even if Templar magic was recognized as spellcasting, it's not innate to the Templars, if they just stopped taking lyrium eventually they would lose the ability. Although as Alistair proves, they can use the ability for a long time afterwards. I think part of that was just the requirements of gameplay, for us to have a specialization as well, so some of that story doesn't quite match up with the gameplay, and I think eventually we'd like to work the lyrium requirement back into the gameplay as well. Regardless the magic the Templars use doesn't involve mind control, it's not forbidden magic, there's nothing about it--especially since it can only against
mages--there's nothing about it that would make the Chantry step in and go "Wow, that's bad." But then we're talking about a Chantry that also has phylacteries in every Circle, which is a type of blood magic, so there's definitely an element of hypocrisy there.
.

Modifié par Wulfram, 14 novembre 2013 - 01:17 .

[Nohvarr]

Although as Alistair proves, they can use the ability for a long time afterwards.

So if the Cassandra in the vid is taking Lyrium (plausible since you are running a major organization) or some other mystical potion, her smashing the gate still works, since she is (at that point) an enhanced human.

Of course, we still need to deal with the powers of a Berserker and a Spirit Warrior but we'll get to those later.

Modifié par Nohvarr, 14 novembre 2013 - 01:22 .

[The Elder King]

@KiwiQuiche: it didn't meant to be snotty. I apologize.
My point is that DAO broke my suspension of disbelief (DA2 as well) so I'm not going to mind if there are irrealistic skills or animations. I'd be glad if they'll not be present, but I can live with them.

[Wulfram]

Nohvarr wrote...

So if the Cassandra in the vid is taking Lyrium (plausible since you are running a major organization) or some other mystical potion, her smashing the gate still works, since she is (at that point) an enhanced human.

Not really, because taking Lyrium doesn't make you stronger.  It helps you resist and disrupt spellcasting.

As Alistair said "Unless the opponent is a mage then I'm just a guy in a metal suit".  And Mr Gaider made a similar comment in the interview I just quoted.

Some of the actual gameplay abilities don't exactly fit this, which i'd put down to gameplay/story segregation again, but none of them suggest that the Templar would gain the ability to break down a metal gate.

[Heimdall]

Nohvarr wrote...

Although as Alistair proves, they can use the ability for a long time afterwards.

So if the Cassandra in the vid is taking Lyrium (plausible since you are running a major organization) or some other mystical potion, her smashing the gate still works, since she is (at that point) an enhanced human.

Of course, we still need to deal with the powers of a Berserker and a Spirit Warrior but we'll get to those later.

Lyrium doesn't give super strength, which is not a Templar ability.  It's not a super steroid.  Unless you want to ascribe it traits that have never been shown, it doesn't work.

I'll say nothing of Berserkers, but a Spirit Warrior gets his power from a pact with a spirit, nothing ambiguous about that.

[The Elder King]

Nohvarr wrote...

Although as Alistair proves, they can use the ability for a long time afterwards.

So if the Cassandra in the vid is taking Lyrium (plausible since you are running a major organization) or some other mystical potion, her smashing the gate still works, since she is (at that point) an enhanced human.

Of course, we still need to deal with the powers of a Berserker and a Spirit Warrior but we'll get to those later.

SW is obviously enhanced with a spirit. The problem is that theorically non-mages couldn't work with a spirit that way, but the abilities themselves are explained by the spirit's presence. SW could actually find a reason to work in Inquisition, since the Veil tears might allow non-mages to have some relationship with spirit. I sure hope that if SW is back there's a quest that allows a spirt to work with us, not in the same way DAA handled it.
Berseker might be explained by the fact that the dwarf tecniques allow access to great doses of adrenalyine, which can explain the greater strenght.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Nohvarr wrote...
So if the Cassandra in the vid is taking Lyrium (plausible since you are running a major organization) or some other mystical potion, her smashing the gate still works, since she is (at that point) an enhanced human.

Maybe. I don't think just lyrium would work. Templars spend years training to use their powers.
And there is nothing like shield bash in their arsenal.
And even if a magical potion did increase Casses strength to supehuman levels, bashing a steal door would require a LOT of strength. Vastly superhuman. Let's not forget that strength alone is not enough to bash down a door. You need a comparable level of durability/invulnerability, your shield would have to be also a lot stronger than the door, and you would have to have super-friction powers (otherwise striking the door would send you flying backwards)

[THEFRIGGINDOOMGUY!]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Nohvarr wrote...
So if the Cassandra in the vid is taking Lyrium (plausible since you are running a major organization) or some other mystical potion, her smashing the gate still works, since she is (at that point) an enhanced human.

Maybe. I don't think just lyrium would work. Templars spend years training to use their powers.
And there is nothing like shield bash in their arsenal.
And even if a magical potion did increase Casses strength to supehuman levels, bashing a steal door would require a LOT of strength. Vastly superhuman. Let's not forget that strength alone is not enough to bash down a door. You need a comparable level of durability/invulnerability, your shield would have to be also a lot stronger than the door, and you would have to have super-friction powers (otherwise striking the door would send you flying backwards)

And with that kind of strength, she would break her own arm.

[AntiChri5]

In Origins, non mages could force a living creature to appear out of nowhere at will. This requires either the ability to teleport others or the ability to create both life and matter seemingly from nothing. And then run around on fire with seven arrows sticking out of them.

And people have issues with a gate getting beaten down too quickly?

[Nohvarr]

Some of the actual gameplay abilities don't exactly fit this, which i'd put down to gameplay/story segregation again, but none of them suggest that the Templar would gain the ability to break down a metal gate.

Not a Templar, no, but it does suggest that normal people can be enhanced by various means to do extraordinary things. A normal human can be enhanced to use magic like abilities and become a Templar. Fenris was enhanced by surgery and lyrium to become a powerful warrior.

I'll say nothing of Berserkers, but a Spirit Warrior gets his power from a pact with a spirit, nothing ambiguous about that.

Regular lyrium doesn’t grant super strength, but it, plus red lyrium and specilizations like Berserkers and Spirit Warriors establish humans can be enhanced with abilities they wouldn’t normally have. Smashing through a gate fits into that mold.

Berseker might be explained by the fact that the dwarf tecniques allow access to great doses of adrenalyine, which can explain the greater strenght.

It would explain the strength, though not the regen.

Templars spend years training to use their powers.

And yet the Warden appears to have mastered the talent in record time, whereas Cassandra has been a seeker for years and is from a family known to hunt Dragons.

And even if a magical potion did increase Cassandra’s strength to supehuman levels, bashing a steal door would require a LOT of strength. Vastly superhuman. Let's not forget that strength alone is not enough to bash down a door. You need a comparable level of durability/invulnerability,

We have already covered increased regen with berserkers, and we know that magical items can increase health, stamina, and provide greater durability

your shield would have to be also a lot stronger than the door, and you would have to have super-friction powers (otherwise striking the door would send you flying backwards)

Considering the battle begins with the inquisitor pulling out a flaming sword I do not think the above is out of the question.

And with that kind of strength, she would break her own arm

Unless she’s been enhanced in some way they’ve decided not to show. I mean before Fenris I never would’ve guessed a normal person could phase their fist through a person’s chest.

I understand if it’s something people don’t like, I just disagree with the assertion that the setting doesn’t allow for this to be plausible and make sense in how it’s executed. Enhanced mortals occur often enough through a variety of means that I can not dismiss what Cassandra has done in this video.

[Hilarystamp]

How is this any different than her using the same move to break that demon's rock armour shield?

[Maria Caliban]

Octavian the Emperor wrote...

And with that kind of strength, she would break her own arm.

How? If you drink a potion that increases your strength, it's going to increase the strength of your connective and soft tissue, joints, and bones.

Unless the setting specifically says that a potion only strengthens part of your body, the assumption should be that it strengthens all of it.

[Thomas Andresen]

Do I need to remind people that the Seekers are not Templars? The Seekers are a seperate arm of the Chantry, their job used to be to oversee the Templars, from the shadows at that. Why are people assuming Cassandra has Templar training?

Warriors in Thedas are also do not have a strength comparable to the average human in real life. To do what they do in combat they'd need to be at the very least twice as strong as an average construction worker, and even that is generous on the part of the real life humans. Add to that, Cassandra can reasonably be assumed to be a stronger than average warrior.

And with that kind of strength, she would break her own arm.

That's like saying someone swinging a sledgehammer at a steel beam would break their arm. (Hint: not if they know how to properly swing a sledgehammer, they don't.) If Cassandra were that unskilled in using a shield, she'd damage her arm whenever she used it against any other warrior.


Not to mention how people are completely ignoring arguments about how the gate would be weakened, or about how everything was nerfed for the sake of practicality in the demo. Why am I even here.

[Iakus]

David Gaider wrote...

Um, yeah.

This was just to demonstrate the shield bash. Why someone would jump to the conclusion that this wouldn't require something extraordinary on Cassandra's part (a special leveled-up ability, a magical shield, etc.), some kind of preparation on the Inquisition's part, or that just because Cassandra can do this that other characters/classes might not have similar abilities... I'm not really sure.

Relax, people. Considering all the abilities that various characters have (and have had throughout the DA games) this shouldn't be where all verisimilitude breaks down for you. She's strong, and this need neither be the final say in how the ability is used or what it looks like (considering the pre-alpha state). So offer feedback on that front, please do, but if the assertion is that Cassandra shouldn't be able to break down doors period... well the only response to that is "meh".

Okay, my feedback:

That particulard scene looks like it could break immersion in the game.  The gate did not look particularly old or rusted.  It looked like...a gate.  One meant to keep more than four people out.

And Cassandra, or any warrior, really, shouldn't be able to break down a secured gate with shield bashes barring magical augmentation of either the warrior or the shield.

So, assuming such a maneauver will exist in the final project, might I suggest tweaking it to show either the use of magic, or making it more clear that the gate has been weakened by time, sabotage, or neglect?

[Rawgrim]

Nohvarr wrote...

Nohvarr, seeing a mage blasting gate with fireball or one ton ogre breaking through is acceptable since both posses believable means to do it. Max 70kg Cassandra does not posses any of those abilities. And for the reference, a ogre had to bash several times a small wooden gate in DAO to get into alienage. Cassandra smashes a huge metal gate two times and crushes it. See the difference?

Sorry, but I disagree. I’ve just listed specializations that allow mundane humans to do extraordinary things, I mean regenerating from wounds only because you’re angry? That is not possible for a normal human, neither is using magic to cleans an area of hostile effects. So if her specialization or her armor, allow her to do this I do not see the problem.

It's the way RPGs are designed.

RPG’s are changing and in some ways for the better. My first RPG was called Deus Ex, and it’s the game that convinced me to give other RPG’s a try. Creative use of abilities is the hallmark of that game, so seeing it implemented here is a good thing IMHO. Another was Dark messiah of Might and magic (AKA Sir Kicksalot death boots) and campy as that could get I had a lot of fun kicking enemies into spikes, collapsible objects, etc.

I personally do not know of even one which can seamlessly transfer abilities from one mode to another.

It may not be seamless but I can think of one RPG series that does just that, Pokemon (aka Baby’s first RPG). The ‘SURF’ ability which is used in combat can also allow you to ride your Mon across the oceans, and later you can do the same with ‘FLIGHT’.

Yes, we were seeing the assault part, but the party wasn't necessarily in combat mode(no yellow circles seen), just the combat stance(you could do that in DA:O by activating an ability).

I respectfully disagree, I think assaulting a keep is inherently a combat action and their decision to allow combat abilities (with the appropriate level building) to be used in such a manner fits the gameplay. I mean later on the use their abilities to send a group of guards on a wood bridge tumbling to their deaths.

If your first rpg was Deus Ex, you need to play some older games from the so-called "golden age of rpgs", if your arguments are going to hold any water when it comes to
things that have changed for the better in rpgs.

Dark Messiah of Might and Magic is an action game, not an rpg.

[Rawgrim]

AntiChri5 wrote...

In Origins, non mages could force a living creature to appear out of nowhere at will. This requires either the ability to teleport others or the ability to create both life and matter seemingly from nothing. And then run around on fire with seven arrows sticking out of them.

And people have issues with a gate getting beaten down too quickly?

People had issues with that too. Huge issues. On par with the gate bashing.