420 réponses à ce sujet

[KnightofPhoenix]

Upsettingshorts wrote...
But hey I'm sure you're okay with Alistair doing all that because he's a man right?  <_<

It's not like we have active duty women combat soldiers today who carry combat gear up to 100 lbs while fighting in notoriously cool and temperate regions such as Iraq.  Whatever bro, sterorytypes and assumptions kick ass and are totally true right?

It takes a special kind of person to come into a threat saying breaking down a keep gate is unrealistic to claim a woman in full plate armor is the real problem they have suspending disbelief.

This.

Besides, weve had fully armored women since Origins, since when was this an issue? 

[Dave of Canada]

Pzykozis wrote...

So, a flying reptile in the order of 10s of tons with scales that are probably akin in strength and endurance to a foot thick piece of steel, that also somehow evolved a phlogiston gland, both existing and the player character being able to fight and actually kill it is somehow more believable than this?

Man, people pick some really, really weird hills to die on.

Suspension of Disbelief.

People see a dragon, they relate it to the fantasy genre and accept it's existence.
People see a zombie, they relate it to the zombie genre and accept it's existence.
People see a human, they relate to it and impose realistic expectations of a human onto them. Unless the series flat-out states that these humans are special in some form or another, it breaks suspension of disbelief.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 14 novembre 2013 - 07:25 .

[Hellion Rex]

Why can we not just let it go, and just chalk it up to being a fantasy game? We are overthinking this way too much.

[Anthadlas]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Pzykozis wrote...

So, a flying reptile in the order of 10s of tons with scales that are probably akin in strength and endurance to a foot thick piece of steel, that also somehow evolved a phlogiston gland, both existing and the player character being able to fight and actually kill it is somehow more believable than this?

Man, people pick some really, really weird hills to die on.

Suspension of Disbelief.

People see a dragon, they relate it to the fantasy genre and accept it's existence.
People see a zombie, they relate it to the zombie genre and accept it's existence.
People see a human, they relate to it and impose realistic expectations of a human onto them. Unless the series flat-out states that these humans are special in some form or another, it breaks suspension of disbelief.

Yeah pretty much this.

[Pzykozis]

Wraith 02 wrote...

Pzykozis wrote...

So, a flying reptile in the order of 10s of tons with scales that are probably akin in strength and endurance to a foot thick piece of steel, that also somehow evolved a phlogiston gland, both existing and the player character being able to fight and actually kill it is somehow more believable than this?

Man, people pick some really, really weird hills to die on.

You really think you are the first person to bring this up? It has been repeatedly brought up and established that Dragons are infact, part of the lore. Who could have guessed.

Nothing in the lore however states that people of regular build and no magical ability can punch their way into a castle.

Hell even if they come up with some crazy reason why she can do it I will be happy as long as it is consistant

Uh ok so I can punch through Dragon scales i.e. a material harder than steel and on a dragon which due to the sheer size would mean its probably easily as thick as the gate, but regular steel gates on a castle? Oh of course that randomly weaker material and construction is completely more durable. SENSE.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Dave of Canada wrote...
People see a human, they relate to it and impose realistic expectations of a human onto them. Unless the series flat-out states that these humans are special in some form or another, it breaks suspension of disbelief.

I've become quite rusty in my DA lore, but aren't Seekers lyrium infused as well? Perhaps it enhances physical strength. 

[Pzykozis]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Pzykozis wrote...

So, a flying reptile in the order of 10s of tons with scales that are probably akin in strength and endurance to a foot thick piece of steel, that also somehow evolved a phlogiston gland, both existing and the player character being able to fight and actually kill it is somehow more believable than this?

Man, people pick some really, really weird hills to die on.

Suspension of Disbelief.

People see a dragon, they relate it to the fantasy genre and accept it's existence.
People see a zombie, they relate it to the zombie genre and accept it's existence.
People see a human, they relate to it and impose realistic expectations of a human onto them. Unless the series flat-out states that these humans are special in some form or another, it breaks suspension of disbelief.

My main argument is more about the physics of a person with a sword attacking something which is basically as durable if not more so than a tank. If you can accept people running in and attacking a dragon with melee weapons then you really have no leg to stand on. Existence was just the icing.

[upsettingshorts]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Pzykozis wrote...

So, a flying reptile in the order of 10s of tons with scales that are probably akin in strength and endurance to a foot thick piece of steel, that also somehow evolved a phlogiston gland, both existing and the player character being able to fight and actually kill it is somehow more believable than this?

Man, people pick some really, really weird hills to die on.

Suspension of Disbelief.

People see a dragon, they relate it to the fantasy genre and accept it's existence.
People see a zombie, they relate it to the zombie genre and accept it's existence.
People see a human, they relate to it and impose realistic expectations of a human onto them. Unless the series flat-out states that these humans are special in some form or another, it breaks suspension of disbelief.

If you mean:

People see a human, they relate to it and impose their own assumptions of realistic expectations of a human onto them. Unless the series flat-out states that these humans are special in some form or another, it breaks suspension of disbelief.

Then I'd agree.  As a consequence, there are two possible solutions.  The first you summarized, provide lore justification.  The second is to disposess them of those assumptions.  The latter is preferable if said assumptions are contradicted by facts.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 14 novembre 2013 - 07:27 .

[Welsh Inferno]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

So we can safely estimate the number of bashes required to bust down a keep gate as anywhere between 1-20.  That's a lot of room for balancing in, you know, the next year of gameplay design.  Maybe it will be one bash.  If you spec all the way up the Cassandra bashing tree.  And/or you fully weakened the gate before assaulting.  Who knows?

I didnt mean 20 literally. I meant, he basically said they wouldnt make it any more than it is because it would be boring and just pointless filler.

Sorry for late response.

Modifié par Welsh Inferno, 14 novembre 2013 - 07:27 .

[Iakus]

Upsettingshorts wrote...]

Well, like I said, with or without visual evidence we must assume the keep is weak in some (or all) respects, given the narration that establish that the keep had been weakened prior to the assault.

As to whether or not this specifically means the gate is either literally rusting off its hinges, or in some abstract fashion is meant to be as weak as if it were, we can't know. 

But the keep "has been weakened" is a fact in evidence.

Which is why my personal feedback for the scene is, if the gate has in fact been weakened, then it should be tweaked to better reflect that.

Modifié par iakus, 14 novembre 2013 - 07:27 .

[Anthadlas]

Pzykozis wrote...

Wraith 02 wrote...

Pzykozis wrote...

So, a flying reptile in the order of 10s of tons with scales that are probably akin in strength and endurance to a foot thick piece of steel, that also somehow evolved a phlogiston gland, both existing and the player character being able to fight and actually kill it is somehow more believable than this?

Man, people pick some really, really weird hills to die on.

You really think you are the first person to bring this up? It has been repeatedly brought up and established that Dragons are infact, part of the lore. Who could have guessed.

Nothing in the lore however states that people of regular build and no magical ability can punch their way into a castle.

Hell even if they come up with some crazy reason why she can do it I will be happy as long as it is consistant

Uh ok so I can punch through Dragon scales i.e. a material harder than steel and on a dragon which due to the sheer size would mean its probably easily as thick as the gate, but regular steel gates on a castle? Oh of course that randomly weaker material and construction is completely more durable. SENSE.

Have you ever 1 shotted a Dragon with a shield bash?

Because if you did, that would make no sense

Gates are Strong
Dragons are Strong
Neither should be able to get destroyed in 1 hit from a shield

[upsettingshorts]

Welsh Inferno wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

So we can safely estimate the number of bashes required to bust down a keep gate as anywhere between 1-20.  That's a lot of room for balancing in, you know, the next year of gameplay design.  Maybe it will be one bash.  If you spec all the way up the Cassandra bashing tree.  And/or you fully weakened the gate before assaulting.  Who knows?

I didnt mean 20 literally. I meant, he basically said they wouldnt make it any more than it is because it would be boring and just pointless filler.

Sorry for late response.

Then maybe it's an either or.  Either the gate is weak enough for Cassandra (or whomever) to bash it in one go, for whatever reason, or it's not and will never work.  Again, we don't know. 

[Nohvarr]

Lord Aesir wrote...

Red lyrium causes madness by all accounts and you'll simply have to accept lore/gameplay segregation on the part of the Berserker. 

So you have no way to explain why a Berserker can regain health beyond the meta, then I stand by my point.

As for the Spirit Warrior, I checked and none of its abilities increase strength.  In any case, the only human being to demonstrate the sort of human enhancement you're talking about is Meredith and it killed her.  This is a fortified metal gate we're talking about.

Yes, it killed her, but that doesn't mean another process would allow the person to live. In the book "Asunder" the mages undid something people thought could not be undone. So since we agree that Red Lyrium can increase strength, since Fenris is proof that Lyrium can be worked into a living being and grant them unusual abilities, and since Berserkers appear to regain health via some unknown manner that has  link to their rage my point stands. Here ability to break the gate is, so far, not a contradiction or impossible under the known lore.

[Ryzaki]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...
But hey I'm sure you're okay with Alistair doing all that because he's a man right?  <_<

It's not like we have active duty women combat soldiers today who carry combat gear up to 100 lbs while fighting in notoriously cool and temperate regions such as Iraq.  Whatever bro, sterorytypes and assumptions kick ass and are totally true right?

It takes a special kind of person to come into a threat saying breaking down a keep gate is unrealistic to claim a woman in full plate armor is the real problem they have suspending disbelief.

This.

Besides, weve had fully armored women since Origins, since when was this an issue? 

Seriously? WTF did I walk into.

I could understand being WTF at the gate. But the armor? 

[Pzykozis]

Wraith 02 wrote...

Pzykozis wrote...

Wraith 02 wrote...

Pzykozis wrote...

So, a flying reptile in the order of 10s of tons with scales that are probably akin in strength and endurance to a foot thick piece of steel, that also somehow evolved a phlogiston gland, both existing and the player character being able to fight and actually kill it is somehow more believable than this?

Man, people pick some really, really weird hills to die on.

You really think you are the first person to bring this up? It has been repeatedly brought up and established that Dragons are infact, part of the lore. Who could have guessed.

Nothing in the lore however states that people of regular build and no magical ability can punch their way into a castle.

Hell even if they come up with some crazy reason why she can do it I will be happy as long as it is consistant

Uh ok so I can punch through Dragon scales i.e. a material harder than steel and on a dragon which due to the sheer size would mean its probably easily as thick as the gate, but regular steel gates on a castle? Oh of course that randomly weaker material and construction is completely more durable. SENSE.

Have you ever 1 shotted a Dragon with a shield bash?

Because if you did, that would make no sense

Gates are Strong
Dragons are Strong
Neither should be able to get destroyed in 1 hit from a shield

One big difference Dragon fights are fun, Fighting gates? Not so much.

You could have people wailing on the door for 4 minutes to open it but that serves no point at all.

[General TSAR]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

If you mean:

People see a human, they relate to it and impose their own assumptions of realistic expectations of a human onto them. Unless the series flat-out states that these humans are special in some form or another, it breaks suspension of disbelief.

Sorry, evolution has endowed men with more functional muscle mass than women.

But then again, it's also how large the fight is in the dog, not how large the dog is. 

Modifié par General TSAR, 14 novembre 2013 - 07:33 .

[Dave of Canada]

Agent: We've weaked the hinges of the gate, any slight pressure should collapse it.
Inquisitor: Okay, thank you.
Cassandra: Want me to bash it?
Inquisitor: Sure.

There, explained. Change it so it collapses instead of shatters.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 14 novembre 2013 - 07:30 .

[Anthadlas]

Pzykozis wrote...

Wraith 02 wrote...

Pzykozis wrote...

Wraith 02 wrote...

Pzykozis wrote...

So, a flying reptile in the order of 10s of tons with scales that are probably akin in strength and endurance to a foot thick piece of steel, that also somehow evolved a phlogiston gland, both existing and the player character being able to fight and actually kill it is somehow more believable than this?

Man, people pick some really, really weird hills to die on.

You really think you are the first person to bring this up? It has been repeatedly brought up and established that Dragons are infact, part of the lore. Who could have guessed.

Nothing in the lore however states that people of regular build and no magical ability can punch their way into a castle.

Hell even if they come up with some crazy reason why she can do it I will be happy as long as it is consistant

Uh ok so I can punch through Dragon scales i.e. a material harder than steel and on a dragon which due to the sheer size would mean its probably easily as thick as the gate, but regular steel gates on a castle? Oh of course that randomly weaker material and construction is completely more durable. SENSE.

Have you ever 1 shotted a Dragon with a shield bash?

Because if you did, that would make no sense

Gates are Strong
Dragons are Strong
Neither should be able to get destroyed in 1 hit from a shield

One big difference Dragon fights are fun, Fighting gates? Not so much.

You could have people wailing on the door for 4 minutes to open it but that serves no point at all.

As I have already stated if you scroll up we don't want a gate fight like a boss battle.
We want a more realistic way to 1 shot a gate.
Even a mage destroying it in 1 shot with a magical blast would be suitable.
Why they went with a shield bash is just perplexing

Modifié par Wraith 02, 14 novembre 2013 - 07:33 .

[hoorayforicecream]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Pzykozis wrote...

So, a flying reptile in the order of 10s of tons with scales that are probably akin in strength and endurance to a foot thick piece of steel, that also somehow evolved a phlogiston gland, both existing and the player character being able to fight and actually kill it is somehow more believable than this?

Man, people pick some really, really weird hills to die on.

Suspension of Disbelief.

People see a dragon, they relate it to the fantasy genre and accept it's existence.
People see a zombie, they relate it to the zombie genre and accept it's existence.
People see a human, they relate to it and impose realistic expectations of a human onto them. Unless the series flat-out states that these humans are special in some form or another, it breaks suspension of disbelief.

They're humans in a setting that have firmly established multiple groups of humans that have supernaturally self-augmented to some degree due to semi-mystical means already.

- Reavers heal from their wounds by inflicting pain on their enemies through rituals involving the ingestion of dragon blood
- Templars gain anti-magical abilities through ritual and ingestion of lyrium
- Grey Wardens gain supernatural fighting abilities through ritual and ingestion of darkspawn blood
- Fenris can stick his hand through someone's chest due to magically inscribed lyrium tattoos.

It really shouldn't be that cognitive large a leap that other humans can potentially augment their own inherent abilities in other ways and means, whether it's via something they do to themselves, or some gear they wear (like perpetually burning weapons). But it is for some people, just because it's just a preference. They can accept the breaking of the laws of physics in some respects but not others due to their own personal cognitive biases. Believability is fickle like that, especially because it's such a deeply personal preference, yet it often masquerades as something that people claim to be objective.

Modifié par hoorayforicecream, 14 novembre 2013 - 07:35 .

[Anthadlas]

General TSAR wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

If you mean:

People see a human, they relate to it and impose their own assumptions of realistic expectations of a human onto them. Unless the series flat-out states that these humans are special in some form or another, it breaks suspension of disbelief.

Sorry, evolution has endowed men with more functional muscle mass than women.

Go back to school and learn some science.
Whilst men naturally have more default muscle mass then women due to genetics this doesn't mean all men are stronger than all women.
Women can easily gain as much muscle as any man if they work out.

[David Gaider]

Right, I'm cutting this one off, as people are making ten different arguments here-- many of which have been addressed previously (sometimes in this very thread) but which get ignored as soon as the page passes.

In short:

* It's a demo. Progress was sped up for the sake of being a demo-- including getting into the keep, which would likely not be as simplistic as presented when you're actually playing the game. Don't read into it as being more than it is.

* We have not said that this is how you get into keeps. Nor have we said that this is something Cassandra can do, but nobody else can. Just because we haven't shown something doesn't mean it doesn't exist-- so don't panic, expecting us to start talking about abilities sooner than we intend to.

* Even if "shield bashing a door" is in the final game (which it is not guaranteed to be), it need not end up being as it was in the demo... or, if it is, it might end up being something only useable on specific doors and not necessarily on the gates of a keep. Which, again, demo.

And before someone goes "why would you have a demo that doesn't demo things as they actually are in the final game?" ...one, because it's pre-alpha. Two, because it's a demo we're showing, and not a playable demo-- we speed things up so it's watchable; we're aiming for representative look-and-feel, nothing more.

I know that this kind of over-analysis is something people on forums like to do (I remember the incredible amounts of alarm that accompanied fans analyzing the brief encounter with the prisoner in a cage in the Ostagar demo, picking it apart as if that one encounter represented how quests would be in the entire game, etc. etc.) but don't let your extrapolations get out of hand. Offering feedback is great, but please offer it with what's been said above in mind. Thanks.