420 réponses à ce sujet

[Pseudo the Mustachioed]

MerinTB wrote...

if those and dozens of other 'physically impossible' things can happen in the game, then a warrior bashing down a gate is no more a suspension of disbelief UNLESS you are being AGGRESSIVELY selective.

agreed

not to mention that its still probably a stat based ability, and one that you can elect not to use. So if you don't think gatesmash is an appropriate skill for a high level or specialized warrior, you don't have to give her the skill, and you can try one of the other access routes into the keep that may require invisibility because thats soooo much more realistic

[THEFRIGGINDOOMGUY!]

MerinTB wrote...

Octavian the Emperor wrote...

Oh my goodness, I KNOW it's made up and I KNOW it's fantasy but how am I supposed to find bashing a ****ing GATE with your shield plausible? Again, just because it's fantasy, doesn't mean you can get away with anything.

I've argued this point before, briefly, as I think "Cassandragate" is ridiculous to nitpick over...

but here you go.

If a warrior can SHOUT and knock a bunch of people over -
If a rogue can turn invisible 'just because he's sneaky' -
If a warrior can alter their stance and suddenly become invulnerable to harm and impervious to being knocked over -
If a rogue can fire a bow into the air and have a hailstorm of arrows plummet down -

if those and dozens of other 'physically impossible' things can happen in the game, then a warrior bashing down a gate is no more a suspension of disbelief UNLESS you are being AGGRESSIVELY selective.

I can understand that but there comes a time when the line has to be drawn. How far can we go?

Modifié par Octavian the Emperor, 13 novembre 2013 - 08:23 .

[Pseudo the Mustachioed]

there is no objective "too unrealistic" line to be drawn when everyone brings different expectations and exceptions for suspension of disbelief to the table.

there's always going to be something bothersome for everyone. I thought that in DAO, being able to end a centuries long feud (zathrian) with a few lines of common sense was kind of ridiculous, especially as a distant/uninvolved (human) party with clear and unrelated motivations.

Modifié par Pseudocognition, 13 novembre 2013 - 08:29 .

[Ailith Tycane]

Pseudocognition wrote...

MerinTB wrote...

if those and dozens of other 'physically impossible' things can happen in the game, then a warrior bashing down a gate is no more a suspension of disbelief UNLESS you are being AGGRESSIVELY selective.

agreed

not to mention that its still probably a stat based ability, and one that you can elect not to use. So if you don't think gatesmash is an appropriate skill for a high level or specialized warrior, you don't have to give her the skill, and you can try one of the other access routes into the keep that may require invisibility because thats soooo much more realistic

Pretty much this.

Also during the demo they stated that there are other ways to get in via sneaking through underground tunnels and solving puzzles etc. This shield bash option is clearly for people who don't want to be bothered solving puzzles everytime they need to take over a keep (like me.)

[AlexanderCousland]

Wraith 02 wrote..



I never got involved in your warrior golem random conversation.

I called you an idiot because you think you can punch a portcullis to pieces

acting like a troll doesn't change that, it actually makes you look like a bigger idiot with an ego issue.
I couldn't care less about your ability to build a rogue with massive armor xD

However your derailment of this thread is going to get it locked, so stfu about your "uber warrior" that nobody gives a damn about and get back to your original point about the legitimacy of punching your way into a castle

1. I never said I could punch a portcullis to pieces. WHAT I think is, it's ridiculous to criticize a fantasy character for being able to do THAT and use "realism" as an excuse. Especially in a game with so many more challenging obstacles than a gate.

2. Resorting to name calling like "Idiot, Dumbo, Ego Issues" when we are discussing builds of video game character's is uncalled for, You should work on that. 

[Olivier_dehFanboy]

this is stupid. In dragon age origins, any rogue in stealth mode was essentially invisible, now you want to complain about a warrior doing warrior like things with a little fantasy twist? Like that one person said, new low.

[Pseudo the Mustachioed]

in addition, whose to say that the gate in the actual game would fall with such little effort? everything was nerfed for the demo to condense encounters into a watchable length (and in this case, to demonstrate destructible environments as well) sure it looks ridiculous when it only takes 2 'knocks' but what if in the actual game it takes 10 or more depending on her stats, and in the meanwhile the other 3 party members have to deal with the guard attention that cass would draw, while the bash ability cooldown ends?

really there's probably not much in common between how the demo played out and how it would play out at the actual pace of gameplay

Modifié par Pseudocognition, 13 novembre 2013 - 08:41 .

[Olivier_dehFanboy]

I can understand that but there comes a time when the line has to be drawn. How far can we go?

as far as the game designers of a FANTASY RPG can go, and how far you can take ur suspension of disbelief. 

If you enjoyed dragon age origins and the numerous "plausible" skills in that game, you can enjoy this one. If you want to play a simulation, go play Chivalry medieval warfare.

Modifié par Olivier_dehFanboy, 13 novembre 2013 - 08:52 .

[General TSAR]

Because Cassandra is strong like Russian medved.

Modifié par General TSAR, 13 novembre 2013 - 08:55 .

[Fast Jimmy]

Olivier_dehFanboy wrote...

this is stupid. In dragon age origins, any rogue in stealth mode was essentially invisible, now you want to complain about a warrior doing warrior like things with a little fantasy twist? Like that one person said, new low.

I agree. Also, mages should be able to do Mage things, like fly through the air or shoot lasers from their eyes.

[Allan Schumacher]

Timeouts incoming for those that feel compelled to incessantly reply to each other in a hostile manner.

the gate completely shatters into splinters.

Note that this is akin to "Leliana got decapitated and therefore should have no head."

If you'd prefer, we could alter the scene so that it's merely a dented gate that has a spot to get through that trips up the AI followers when pathfinding and a host of other potential issues.

Smashing the gate into splinters has advantages from a gameplay perspective to hopefully provide a less aggravating experience for (most?) gamers, as opposed to strictly adhering to expectations of realism which would not only cause potential risks to players playing the game, but would also be a more difficult feature to implement (getting a modeller/animator to properly set the situation up, rather than reusing already existing - and used in a lot of other places - splinters as part of a prefab).


This also includes reducing a situation where the player could smash through it with 20 (or more) hits, which ultimately isn't that fun and IMO artificially extends the length of games by having the players do things that are purely buffer.

Sorry.

Modifié par Allan Schumacher, 13 novembre 2013 - 09:19 .

[Xilizhra]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Olivier_dehFanboy wrote...

this is stupid. In dragon age origins, any rogue in stealth mode was essentially invisible, now you want to complain about a warrior doing warrior like things with a little fantasy twist? Like that one person said, new low.

I agree. Also, mages should be able to do Mage things, like fly through the air or shoot lasers from their eyes.

Agreed, especially for the former. Flight spells are something badly missing.

[HiroVoid]

Allan Schumacher wrote...
Note that this is akin to "Leliana got decapitated and therefore should have no head."

In short terms, gameplay doesn't always equal story right?

[Icy Magebane]

The only way this would bother me is if Shield Bash doesn't do much damage to enemies, and is mostly a knockdown power. I mean, a martial artist can train to break through solid ice, so why can't a warrior from a fantasy game learn to focus their strength in a similar manner? These people are stronger and more durable than humans anyway...

But I also think that letting a mage blast through the gates with a fireball would be cool.  Um... assuming you have a very high magic level and it actually costs mana... not something a novice would be capable of.

Modifié par Icy Magebane, 13 novembre 2013 - 09:28 .

[The Hierophant]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Timeouts incoming for those that feel compelled to incessantly reply to each other in a hostile manner.

the gate completely shatters into splinters.

Note that this is akin to "Leliana got decapitated and therefore should have no head."

If you'd prefer, we could alter the scene so that it's merely a dented gate that has a spot to get through that trips up the AI followers when pathfinding and a host of other potential issues.

Smashing the gate into splinters has advantages from a gameplay perspective to hopefully provide a less aggravating experience for (most?) gamers, as opposed to strictly adhering to expectations of realism which would not only cause potential risks to players playing the game, but would also be a more difficult feature to implement (getting a modeller/animator to properly set the situation up, rather than reusing already existing - and used in a lot of other places - splinters as part of a prefab).


This also includes reducing a situation where the player could smash through it with 20 (or more) hits, which ultimately isn't that fun and IMO artificially extends the length of games by having the players do things that are purely buffer.

Sorry.

IIRC the Inquisitor could employ agents, why not have a battering ram squad of them on hand? If that's not possible what about the use of cross class abilities like a mage squadmate using a liquid nitrogen like spell to make the metal brittle before the warrior shield bashes, while alternatively a rogue could use an alchemical concoction to corrode the metal before the warrior destroys it?

[Welsh Inferno]

Eh, guess I'll be taking the sneaky option a lot then.

Allan Schumacher wrote...

This also includes reducing a situation where the player could smash through it with 20 (or more) hits, which ultimately isn't that fun and IMO artificially extends the length of games by having the players do things that are purely buffer.

This is also a good point Allan. I guess I'll just deal with it. I still dont like the effect that happens when a sword gets smacked on the ground.

Modifié par Welsh Inferno, 13 novembre 2013 - 09:50 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

If you'd prefer, we could alter the scene so that it's merely a dented gate that has a spot to get through that trips up the AI followers when pathfinding and a host of other potential issues.

Smashing the gate into splinters has advantages from a gameplay perspective to hopefully provide a less aggravating experience for (most?) gamers, as opposed to strictly adhering to expectations of realism which would not only cause potential risks to players playing the game, but would also be a more difficult feature to implement (getting a modeller/animator to properly set the situation up, rather than reusing already existing - and used in a lot of other places - splinters as part of a prefab).

This also includes reducing a situation where the player could smash through it with 20 (or more) hits, which ultimately isn't that fun and IMO artificially extends the length of games by having the players do things that are purely buffer.

This is generally my feeling, as well - these things can be treated as abstractions - but doing that does seem to undercut the cinematic presentation.  If the things we're shown in the scenes aren't strictly accurate, why are they being shown to us?

With the gate, it makes sense that the game needs to demonstrate that the barrier no longer impedes us, but with things like the killshot animations or even the depth-of-field effects in cutscenes, what is their point if they're not showing us real things?

[Allan Schumacher]

IIRC the Inquisitor could employ agents, why not have a battering ram squad of them on hand? If that's not possible what about the use of cross class abilities like a mage squadmate using a liquid nitrogen like spell to make the metal brittle before the warrior shield bashes, while alternatively a rogue could use an alchemical concoction to corrode the metal before the warrior destroys it?

It is entirely possible that the gate is intended to be weakened because of agents. I honestly don't know. IIRC, the stage was set that "You have been here for some time already and have weakened the keep with past actions."

[Welsh Inferno]

Do you know if it will be at all possible to take out the gate with a mage Allan? I'm just curious because what if you dont have a warrior in your party?

Modifié par Welsh Inferno, 13 novembre 2013 - 10:05 .

[Allan Schumacher]

Do you know if it will be at all possible to take out the gate with a mage Allan? I'm just curious because what if you dont have a warrior in your party?

I do not know the answer to that, unfortunately. I do hope that each class can provide something creative to the table.

[Pseudo the Mustachioed]

Welsh Inferno wrote...

Do you know if it will be at all possible to take out the gate with a mage Allan? I'm just curious because what if you dont have a warrior in your party?

actually I'm curious about this too since, as demonstrated by the firebomb, every class has a way of dealing with those templar boats

Modifié par Pseudocognition, 13 novembre 2013 - 10:08 .

[Fast Jimmy]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

IIRC the Inquisitor could employ agents, why not have a battering ram squad of them on hand? If that's not possible what about the use of cross class abilities like a mage squadmate using a liquid nitrogen like spell to make the metal brittle before the warrior shield bashes, while alternatively a rogue could use an alchemical concoction to corrode the metal before the warrior destroys it?

It is entirely possible that the gate is intended to be weakened because of agents. I honestly don't know. IIRC, the stage was set that "You have been here for some time already and have weakened the keep with past actions."

I'd wonder if weakening the keeps to make invasion easier actually costs more resources/agents/what-have-you to rebuild it afterwards, or if all reclaimed keeps start at a similar "base" level when conquered, regardless of how. 

[Wulfram]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Note that this is akin to "Leliana got decapitated and therefore should have no head."

That seems a really bizarre analogy to choose.  You aren't suggesting that, whatever view is taken on the wider Leliana issue that we shouldn't get into here, the thing with people getting beheaded when they're not supposed to die was anything but a bug, are you?

[TurretSyndrome]

It should've been a collaboration of the four party members(or at least two of them) to do something like that rather than just one angry Seeker smashing it to pieces but bashing twice. The implementation isn't that great there.

Also, why not just have the entrance open? Why is there even a need to include a metal gate just to let the player smash in mere seconds? I personally don't have a problem with it, but the ones who do, are not wrong to feel that way.

[Allan Schumacher]

Wulfram wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Note that this is akin to "Leliana got decapitated and therefore should have no head."

That seems a really bizarre analogy to choose.  You aren't suggesting that, whatever view is taken on the wider Leliana issue that we shouldn't get into here, the thing with people getting beheaded when they're not supposed to die was anything but a bug, are you?

I'm suggesting that, sometimes, people fixate too much on the specifics of what they are seeing.

Saying "Leliana is dead, I don't like her in DA2" is fine.  Saying "She was decapitated, which further invalidated any attempts to try to rationalize her death" is when I think fans need to give a bit when reconciling the balancing act of devs-players working together to have a fun experience.  (And yes, complaining about the decapitation does come across as saying "You should hvae made sure this couldn't happen in DAO" regardless of whether or not the poster intends it to be that way.  It's effectively a mistake was forgotten/not considered and shouldn't have been possible in DAO, in retrospect.  But many use it as an example of retcon because she wasn't just attacked at the Urn, she was decapitated).

Yes, the gate shattered into splinters.  But there may be gameplay reasons for that and taking something like that at such face value will likely result in a lot of instances of player frustration.

Modifié par Allan Schumacher, 13 novembre 2013 - 10:50 .