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Curious about feelings toward Ending: Two Camps?


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#76
Rasofe

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Ieldra2 wrote...


@KaiserShep:
ME3 beats ME2 in the story design itself, but the storytelling quality - in narrative consistency and characterization - is significantly behind the other two games.


That depends on preferences for what is good story design. ME3 has only one central conflict which is also global, and it has a very linear plot. ME2 is a collection of nonlinear subplots, like a set of short stories.
In terms of thematic delivery, ME2 surpassed ME3 considerably. The question is, was it in spite of or because of the fact that it was a collection of nonlinear subplots?

Well, given the fact that Bioware seem to hit thematic pitfalls (and repitition, and 360's) when they start going too rigid about an idea they want to get across, I would say that because they didn't zone in so hard on a single large conflict is why ME2's short stories were more engaging. Individually things like Tuchanka and Rannoch work great, but when they tried to string them together into one giant conflict the in-betweens started to wear. But that's just a conjecture based on one of their IP's, I've never played Dragon Age or any of their other games.

#77
SpamBot2000

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The thing about ME3 is, it's bad in so many ways that no matter which way you look at it, its suckage is obvious. Unless of course you have at least two pairs of fanboi goggles on that is. I only had the one pair, and it didn't protect me from the squalid sight, alas.

One can only marvel at the capacity of Mac Walters to tear down true greatness.

#78
David7204

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I guess that's why it got all those perfect scores, huh? All those reviewers and 'fanboi goggles.'

#79
SpamBot2000

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David7204 wrote...

I guess that's why it got all those perfect scores, huh? All those reviewers and 'fanboi goggles.'


Precisely. That, and a lack of any semblance of journalistic integrity.

#80
SpamBot2000

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David7204 wrote...

'Journalistic integrity.' Hilarious.

You're an underdog, aren't you SpamBot? A poor, oppressed little underdog trampled upon by those big, bad, nasty corporations and institutions aren't you? Those reviewers, they're out to get you. Publishers? Developers? All out to get you.


That's just stupid, Dave.

#81
MassivelyEffective0730

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David7204 wrote...

'Journalistic integrity.' Hilarious.

You're an underdog, aren't you SpamBot? A poor, oppressed little underdog trampled upon by those big, bad, nasty corporations and institutions aren't you? Those reviewers, they're out to get you. Publishers? Developers? All out to get you.


Reported.

#82
3DandBeyond

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Trentest0 wrote...

When people complain about the ending online, to their friends , and in general, I feel like it's hard to properly identify what it is exactly that makes it bad. 

I've found that there are several camps, or rather two sides of a scale that people lean toward. 

Left Side: People who wanted a happy or positive ending (now arguably fixed with Extended Cut)

Right Side: People who felt that the Ending betrayed the tagline of the game, "Your Choices Matter", and that the tone of the ending in terms of positivity does not matter. 

Is this a fair identification? What kind of person is more prominent? Do you lean one way or the other? I'd like to know. 


Actually, you haven't totally nailed it at all.  There are several camps on either side of the equation of those who are at least satisfied with the endings and those that are totally not.

On the one side if we must take sides (though we're all fans and should be "respected" as such) there is a wide range of full on support to just "I'm ok but don't really think this is what should have happened with the game as a whole or at the end-but I'll live with it" to the "all game endings suck so get over it" to the "I really liked it since it wasn't just some easy peasy everyone's happy ending" to the "I like pretty colors and cool sounding stuff and what the heck, I didn't like Shepard anyway" to the "I loved it"--the latter being anecdotally a minority opinion.  This based as I said upon anecdotal evidence of literally thousands of posts (not just here), surveys, youtube vids, and talk in back alleys.

On the other side are those who are just not at all satisfied and/or "happy" with it all.  Now that does not mean every single one of them (us) wanted some super sappy happy smiley ending-that rather came down to a bottom line of "if I can't at least have something that makes sense, with a way toward some victory we won for ourselves, with realistic epilogs of survival after abject horror, then give me something that's at least happy".

To make this clear, I wanted something that made sense and fit with the MEU Bioware created, the story and unspoken promises of the games that came before, and the also fit with dialogue they wrote and allowed me to put into Shepard's mouth.  As an example, MY Shepard spoke words BW wrote that said Organics and Synthetics need not always fight.  This Shepard would not just roll over and take one for the team in order to serve some idea that said Organics and Synthetics will always fight.  Not the only example, but one of the core reasons I will never agree with what BW chose to do.  Others are free to like it and may well have used other dialogue to support their opinions, but BW did not create an ending that fit with dialogue and the story they created and that I played.

Another way to put this is to say that yes, in many ways I did want a happier outcome--"HAPPY", no but happier yes as one possibility.  This was the unwritten unspoken promise of ME1 and 2.  This was what the trailers for ME3 implied--we'd retake Earth, save the galaxy, WE WOULD DO THIS.  Not be given it by someone somewhere and as some ambiguous notion of what saving the galaxy by RGB really meant.  Logically, we should be left with a real question mark asking what did we just do by throwing Shepard into the green beam, sending Shepard off to be Reaper Commander, or shooting the tube.  What we're given are cutscenes and slides saying no matter what we did, even if we refused, we did a super good thing and butterflies will fly out and people will sing Shepard's praises forever more.

What I wanted is much different.  I wanted endings that revolved around our success or failure at actually fighting the reapers.  I felt it would have been just as authentic for us to fight and fail (really play the game to the end-using the controller) and even have Shepard be fighting and die after knowing the galaxy is lost and that be the end of play with an epilog that reflected that.  Or, to have Shepard fight, the war be won, and then have Shepard die in sacrifice to this victory.  Or, to have Shepard fight, win the war, lose friends and LI, and then real epilogs, bittersweet ones of rebuilding.  Or, ultimately to have a way to win it all, save those you care about most, including Shepard and then experience a true epilog, again of rebuilding.

I wanted our actions and choices made along the way and including those at the end to determine the outcome and to be playing the game up until the end and then to watch an epilog that showed the impact of all that had happened-even one to take part in perhaps.  I wanted something sensible, fitting, uplifting or even very sad given a full on loss, but I wanted at least one possible way for the people of the galaxy to win this war for themselves and to show they could be responsible for their own future and work together.  I didn't want something that had to have some inane explanation helped out by DLC (Leviathan) that makes it clear the reapers exist because of idiotic organics afraid of synthetics that create a synthetic that kills organics when trying to create a synthetic to keep synthetics from killing organics.

#83
Wayning_Star

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3DandBeyond wrote...

Trentest0 wrote...

When people complain about the ending online, to their friends , and in general, I feel like it's hard to properly identify what it is exactly that makes it bad. 

I've found that there are several camps, or rather two sides of a scale that people lean toward. 

Left Side: People who wanted a happy or positive ending (now arguably fixed with Extended Cut)

Right Side: People who felt that the Ending betrayed the tagline of the game, "Your Choices Matter", and that the tone of the ending in terms of positivity does not matter. 

Is this a fair identification? What kind of person is more prominent? Do you lean one way or the other? I'd like to know. 


Actually, you haven't totally nailed it at all.  There are several camps on either side of the equation of those who are at least satisfied with the endings and those that are totally not.

On the one side if we must take sides (though we're all fans and should be "respected" as such) there is a wide range of full on support to just "I'm ok but don't really think this is what should have happened with the game as a whole or at the end-but I'll live with it" to the "all game endings suck so get over it" to the "I really liked it since it wasn't just some easy peasy everyone's happy ending" to the "I like pretty colors and cool sounding stuff and what the heck, I didn't like Shepard anyway" to the "I loved it"--the latter being anecdotally a minority opinion.  This based as I said upon anecdotal evidence of literally thousands of posts (not just here), surveys, youtube vids, and talk in back alleys.

On the other side are those who are just not at all satisfied and/or "happy" with it all.  Now that does not mean every single one of them (us) wanted some super sappy happy smiley ending-that rather came down to a bottom line of "if I can't at least have something that makes sense, with a way toward some victory we won for ourselves, with realistic epilogs of survival after abject horror, then give me something that's at least happy".

To make this clear, I wanted something that made sense and fit with the MEU Bioware created, the story and unspoken promises of the games that came before, and the also fit with dialogue they wrote and allowed me to put into Shepard's mouth.  As an example, MY Shepard spoke words BW wrote that said Organics and Synthetics need not always fight.  This Shepard would not just roll over and take one for the team in order to serve some idea that said Organics and Synthetics will always fight.  Not the only example, but one of the core reasons I will never agree with what BW chose to do.  Others are free to like it and may well have used other dialogue to support their opinions, but BW did not create an ending that fit with dialogue and the story they created and that I played.

Another way to put this is to say that yes, in many ways I did want a happier outcome--"HAPPY", no but happier yes as one possibility.  This was the unwritten unspoken promise of ME1 and 2.  This was what the trailers for ME3 implied--we'd retake Earth, save the galaxy, WE WOULD DO THIS.  Not be given it by someone somewhere and as some ambiguous notion of what saving the galaxy by RGB really meant.  Logically, we should be left with a real question mark asking what did we just do by throwing Shepard into the green beam, sending Shepard off to be Reaper Commander, or shooting the tube.  What we're given are cutscenes and slides saying no matter what we did, even if we refused, we did a super good thing and butterflies will fly out and people will sing Shepard's praises forever more.

What I wanted is much different.  I wanted endings that revolved around our success or failure at actually fighting the reapers.  I felt it would have been just as authentic for us to fight and fail (really play the game to the end-using the controller) and even have Shepard be fighting and die after knowing the galaxy is lost and that be the end of play with an epilog that reflected that.  Or, to have Shepard fight, the war be won, and then have Shepard die in sacrifice to this victory.  Or, to have Shepard fight, win the war, lose friends and LI, and then real epilogs, bittersweet ones of rebuilding.  Or, ultimately to have a way to win it all, save those you care about most, including Shepard and then experience a true epilog, again of rebuilding.

I wanted our actions and choices made along the way and including those at the end to determine the outcome and to be playing the game up until the end and then to watch an epilog that showed the impact of all that had happened-even one to take part in perhaps.  I wanted something sensible, fitting, uplifting or even very sad given a full on loss, but I wanted at least one possible way for the people of the galaxy to win this war for themselves and to show they could be responsible for their own future and work together.  I didn't want something that had to have some inane explanation helped out by DLC (Leviathan) that makes it clear the reapers exist because of idiotic organics afraid of synthetics that create a synthetic that kills organics when trying to create a synthetic to keep synthetics from killing organics.


the story did end up quite the irony. I suspect that the last sentence in your contemporary imposes evolution, that is what the question remains of the catalyst, who was ultimately "unable" to bring forth answers to it's own riddle. This riddle being put forth by it's creator Leviathan. The "Catalyst" for change is merely an idea, physics has to bring it about. (unless you believe that thought is reality? ;)  The reality of it is a 'loop' and Shep'n friends have to put a stop to it. Permit evolution to progress, or at the least, a choice of which evolution you can accept...

What makes an entity "fear" and why is that directly related to the ideals of any evolutionary problematic. (how to write It all down, invoke the ideal in a VG, permitting others to put it all on share?)

#84
KaiserShep

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SpamBot2000 wrote...

David7204 wrote...

I guess that's why it got all those perfect scores, huh? All those reviewers and 'fanboi goggles.'


Precisely. That, and a lack of any semblance of journalistic integrity.


Unless you can prove that everyone was paid under the table to give the game a good score, your opinion of the game is insufficient to back up this statement.

#85
SpamBot2000

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KaiserShep wrote...

SpamBot2000 wrote...

David7204 wrote...

I guess that's why it got all those perfect scores, huh? All those reviewers and 'fanboi goggles.'


Precisely. That, and a lack of any semblance of journalistic integrity.


Unless you can prove that everyone was paid under the table to give the game a good score, your opinion of the game is insufficient to back up this statement.


Uh, I never suggested any such thing. Crass cash-in-a-brown envelope corruption is not a complete synonym for "a lack of integrity", you know. Besides, that would never even work.

No, what I mean is the whole nature of "games journalism" is pretty unjournalistic at its core. The industry boosterism of most of the media in this field is the opposite of questioning journalism. Whether this is mostly due to the financial logic of the system (the games being reviewed are produced by the big advertisers the media cannot do without; maintaining an audience to justify the advertising depends on timely access to developers etfc.) or maybe just some general tendency to align with the producers remains to be determined by the case. Probably both, though.

You have to remember a lot of these games journalists are on a mission. They feel BAD because the ART FORM they like GETS NO RESPECT. They are united with game devs in their Hollywood envy. That kind of a crusade often makes bedfellows. That's how you get "journalists" throwing massive fits when the people dare to question their LEADING ROLE in the Great Campaign To Make Gaming As Cool As Movies. Even sad wannabes on the periphery of this "journalism" like that "Film Critic Hulk" who wanted to sexually assault the face of anyone who didn't "get" the "greatness" of ME3. Or Rock Paper Shotgun, comparing people to flatulence for disagreeing with their writ.

Modifié par SpamBot2000, 24 novembre 2013 - 06:46 .


#86
KaiserShep

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Lol, I didn't know about this film critic hulk. Makes me glad I don't get too involved in the gaming world much beyond just buying and playing the game.

#87
AlanC9

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SpamBot2000 wrote...

You have to remember a lot of these games journalists are on a mission. They feel BAD because the ART FORM they like GETS NO RESPECT. They are united with game devs in their Hollywood envy. That kind of a crusade often makes bedfellows. That's how you get "journalists" throwing massive fits when the people dare to question their LEADING ROLE in the Great Campaign To Make Gaming As Cool As Movies. 


Note that when the"Hollywood Envy" extends to the design of the games themselves -- wanting games to be more movie-like-- ME3 looks like quite a success. The New York Times review is a good example of this.

#88
dreamgazer

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KaiserShep wrote...

Lol, I didn't know about this film critic hulk. Makes me glad I don't get too involved in the gaming world much beyond just buying and playing the game.


Another more prominent film critic said the ending was "spectacular", too. Read the comments section there for a different look at people's reception to the ending. 

Of course, you can't trust anybody except the people whom you agree with. 

#89
Steelcan

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David7204 wrote...

I guess that's why it got all those perfect scores, huh? All those reviewers and 'fanboi goggles.'

ME2 got a lot of perfect scores too but its plot was nonexistant, many of the characters were very unnecssary, it was almost totally divorced from the overall reaper plot, etc..


its simple, the standards for what make something "perfect" are much looser for video games than for other media.

#90
dreamgazer

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Steelcan wrote...

David7204 wrote...

I guess that's why it got all those perfect scores, huh? All those reviewers and 'fanboi goggles.'

ME2 got a lot of perfect scores too but its plot was nonexistant, many of the characters were very unnecssary, it was almost totally divorced from the overall reaper plot, etc..


its simple, the standards for what make something "perfect" are much looser for video games than for other media.


While true, exceptionally mediocre and downright bad games do receive just criticism, even those underneath EA's banner. 

#91
Steelcan

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dreamgazer wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

David7204 wrote...

I guess that's why it got all those perfect scores, huh? All those reviewers and 'fanboi goggles.'

ME2 got a lot of perfect scores too but its plot was nonexistant, many of the characters were very unnecssary, it was almost totally divorced from the overall reaper plot, etc..


its simple, the standards for what make something "perfect" are much looser for video games than for other media.


While true, exceptionally mediocre and downright bad games do receive just criticism, even those underneath EA's banner. 

absolutely, I'm just saying that works that would otherwise be considered little more than mediocre in other media often recieve massive praise since they are a video game.

#92
ruggly

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dreamgazer wrote...

KaiserShep wrote...

Lol, I didn't know about this film critic hulk. Makes me glad I don't get too involved in the gaming world much beyond just buying and playing the game.


Another more prominent film critic said the ending was "spectacular", too. Read the comments section there for a different look at people's reception to the ending. 

Of course, you can't trust anybody except the people whom you agree with. 


Well, that critic went down the 'you don't understand' route a bit.  And I disagree with him that ME isn't a space opera, the first one is quite the space opera.

#93
His Name was HYR!!

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 Journalists and game critics do not have the knowledge of the lore and narrative of these games as the "real" fans do. So they're far more easily impressed by "stylishness" and rule-of-cool moments which games like ME2 and DA2 have a lot of.

Their reviews may be an accurate reflection of casual fans' opinions of these games, but little else.

Modifié par HYR 2.0, 24 novembre 2013 - 08:10 .


#94
Steelcan

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HYR 2.0 wrote...

 Journalists and game critics do not have the knowledge of the lore and narrative of these games as the fans do. So they're far more easily impressed by "stylishness" and rule-of-cool moments which games like ME2 and DA2 had a lot of.

Their reviews may be an accurate reflection of casual fans' opinions of these games, but little else.

Also this..

But when you look at say die hard fans of a series they are also very easily upset and not impressed with trying new things.

#95
dreamgazer

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ruggly wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

KaiserShep wrote...

Lol, I didn't know about this film critic hulk. Makes me glad I don't get too involved in the gaming world much beyond just buying and playing the game.


Another more prominent film critic said the ending was "spectacular", too. Read the comments section there for a different look at people's reception to the ending. 

Of course, you can't trust anybody except the people whom you agree with. 


Well, that critic went down the 'you don't understand' route a bit.  And I disagree with him that ME isn't a space opera, the first one is quite the space opera.


His space opera comment is off, I definitely agree there, though the softness of Mass Effect's science-fiction doesn't seem so soft when you compare it to other space operas like, say, Farscape. 

#96
dreamgazer

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Steelcan wrote...

But when you look at say die hard fans of a series they are also very easily upset and not impressed with trying new things.


Very accurate. 

#97
ruggly

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dreamgazer wrote...
His space opera comment is off, I definitely agree there, though the softness of Mass Effect's science-fiction doesn't seem so soft when you compare it to other space operas like, say, Farscape. 


Having never watched Farscape, I wouldn't be able to say, but I didn't see if the author said that he played the previous two titles.  ME3 did turn into a bit of a space-fantasy.

Modifié par ruggly, 24 novembre 2013 - 08:19 .


#98
Steelcan

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ruggly wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...
His space opera comment is off, I definitely agree there, though the softness of Mass Effect's science-fiction doesn't seem so soft when you compare it to other space operas like, say, Farscape. 


Having never watched Farscape, I wouldn't be able to say, but I didn't see if the author said that he played the previous two titles.  ME3 did turn into a bit of a space-fantasy.

It was straight up fantasy with Shepard the warrior messiah

#99
GreyLycanTrope

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dreamgazer wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

But when you look at say die hard fans of a series they are also very easily upset and not impressed with trying new things.


Very accurate. 

I'm not particularly impressed with this assertion and it makes me upset.

#100
ruggly

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Steelcan wrote...

ruggly wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...
His space opera comment is off, I definitely agree there, though the softness of Mass Effect's science-fiction doesn't seem so soft when you compare it to other space operas like, say, Farscape. 


Having never watched Farscape, I wouldn't be able to say, but I didn't see if the author said that he played the previous two titles.  ME3 did turn into a bit of a space-fantasy.

It was straight up fantasy with Shepard the warrior messiah


With the warrior call being SYNTHSYNTHSYNTHSYNTHSYNTHSYNTHSYNTHSYNTHSYNTHSYNTHSYNTHSYNTHSYNTHSYNTHSYNTHSACRIFIIIIICE