132 réponses à ce sujet

[Mr.House]

Steelcan wrote...

ruggly wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...
His space opera comment is off, I definitely agree there, though the softness of Mass Effect's science-fiction doesn't seem so soft when you compare it to other space operas like, say, Farscape. 

Having never watched Farscape, I wouldn't be able to say, but I didn't see if the author said that he played the previous two titles.  ME3 did turn into a bit of a space-fantasy.

It was straight up fantasy with Shepard the warrior messiah

Both ME2 and ME3 where space-fantasy. They turned into a poor mans Star Wars, without any charm.

Modifié par Mr.House, 24 novembre 2013 - 08:27 .

[Steelcan]

Mr.House wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

ruggly wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...
His space opera comment is off, I definitely agree there, though the softness of Mass Effect's science-fiction doesn't seem so soft when you compare it to other space operas like, say, Farscape. 

Having never watched Farscape, I wouldn't be able to say, but I didn't see if the author said that he played the previous two titles.  ME3 did turn into a bit of a space-fantasy.

It was straight up fantasy with Shepard the warrior messiah

Both ME2 and ME3 where space-fantasy. They turned into a poor mans Star Wars, without any charm.

idk...some of those renegade interrupts have a charm all their own

[dreamgazer]

ruggly wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...
His space opera comment is off, I definitely agree there, though the softness of Mass Effect's science-fiction doesn't seem so soft when you compare it to other space operas like, say, Farscape. 

Having never watched Farscape, I wouldn't be able to say, but I didn't see if the author said that he played the previous two titles.  ME3 did turn into a bit of a space-fantasy.

Oh, there a decent amount of "space-fantasy" in the first Mass Effect, too, namely around the beacons/cipher and the Thorian. It's all about thresholds. 

[ruggly]

dreamgazer wrote...

ruggly wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...
His space opera comment is off, I definitely agree there, though the softness of Mass Effect's science-fiction doesn't seem so soft when you compare it to other space operas like, say, Farscape. 

Having never watched Farscape, I wouldn't be able to say, but I didn't see if the author said that he played the previous two titles.  ME3 did turn into a bit of a space-fantasy.

Oh, there a decent amount of "space-fantasy" in the first Mass Effect, too, namely around the beacons/cipher and the Thorian. It's all about thresholds. 

Oh, most certainly.  And like you said, all about thresholds, and it was at an acceptable threshold for me for ME1 and most of 2.  When they started making Shepard into Space Messiah: the only person who can solve any sort of problem in the entire bloody galaxy while everyone else sits there with their thumbs up their bums and will later die for your sins, that's when they shattered that threshold into bite sized pieces for me.

[Jorji Costava]

If we're on the topic, then here's a piece by Film Crit Hulk where he criticizes the practice of nitpicking at inconsistencies in plot logic, lore, etc. and using those inconsistencies to gauge the quality of a work. While I'm hardly a pro-ender, I do find myself agreeing with most of what FCH has to say here.

[dreamgazer]

osbornep wrote...

If we're on the topic, then here's a piece by Film Crit Hulk where he criticizes the practice of nitpicking at inconsistencies in plot logic, lore, etc. and using those inconsistencies to gauge the quality of a work. While I'm hardly a pro-ender, I do find myself agreeing with most of what FCH has to say here.

I've read the writer's other film work.  He knows his shit. 

[Br3admax]

Steelcan wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

ruggly wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...
His space opera comment is off, I definitely agree there, though the softness of Mass Effect's science-fiction doesn't seem so soft when you compare it to other space operas like, say, Farscape. 

Having never watched Farscape, I wouldn't be able to say, but I didn't see if the author said that he played the previous two titles.  ME3 did turn into a bit of a space-fantasy.

It was straight up fantasy with Shepard the warrior messiah

Both ME2 and ME3 where space-fantasy. They turned into a poor mans Star Wars, without any charm.

idk...some of those renegade interrupts have a charm all their own

"I'll relinquish one bullet. Where do you want it?"
"You talk too much."
"How about goodbye?" 
"For the love of god, take a breath."
"Now do I have your attention?"

And many more. Just pick the flashy red option for hilarity. ME3's not so much. 

Modifié par Br3ad, 24 novembre 2013 - 08:36 .

[Daemul]

osbornep wrote...

If we're on the topic, then here's a piece by Film Crit Hulk where he criticizes the practice of nitpicking at inconsistencies in plot logic, lore, etc. and using those inconsistencies to gauge the quality of a work. While I'm hardly a pro-ender, I do find myself agreeing with most of what FCH has to say here.

I have read this article before and I agree with all of it, especially this part:

PEOPLE JUST PLAIN NOT WATCHING MOVIES AND MISSING INFORMATION

The amount of times I have facepalmed whilst reading BSN and other sites because someone who thinks they're clever believes they have found a plot hole when the truth is that they didn't pay attention to dialogue or read the codex is astounding, 

I always wonder if I got a different copy of the game than these people. 

[ruggly]

I tried reading the Crit Hulk, but damn, does the all caps lock deal give me a headache.

[David7204]

It's true. I'd say about...80% of the supposed 'plot holes' people whine about are not plot holes or problems at all.

[AlexMBrennan]

Of course, you can't trust anybody except the people whom you agree with.

Of course not - I'm sure it's pure coincidence that all those positive reviews are written by people who can't even form two sentences without contradicting themselves:

Would I like to know what happened to my final squad (I went down with my BFFs Garrus and Liara)? Yeah, but while I assume they bravely gave their lives in that final crazed run to the Conduit I’d rather just leave it open ended.

Which is it? Would you rather know, or not know and leave it open ended?

It's true. I'd say about...80% of the supposed 'plot holes' people whine about are not plot holes or problems at all.

I love this game! Let's start with a definition:

A plot hole, or plothole, a play on the word "pothole," is a gap or inconsistency in a storyline that goes against the flow of logic established by the story's plot, or constitutes a blatant omission of relevant information regarding the plot, sometimes even contradicting itself. These include such things as unlikely behaviour or actions of characters, illogical or impossible events, events happening for no apparent reason, or, statements or events that contradict earlier events in the storyline.

How did Shepard's squadmates teleport back to the Normandy in the original cut? [impossible]

Or how about ME2? Why did every single squadmate board the shuttle for an away mission (to allow Harbinger to abduct the crew) when there is no precedent for that kind of thing whatsoever? [inconsistent]
In the extended cut, why did Shepard call a evac shuttle for a robot and a prothean (who would never accept it, being the avatar of violence or something like that) when he was perfectly happy to leave his love interest Steeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeve to die, never mind the thousands of generic Alliance redshirts who doubtlessly died during Priority: Earth? [inconsistent]

And why don't the Reapers do anything at all in response to Shepard grabbing the IFF? Since Harbinger uses it to locate and board the Normandy they have to know that Shepard has acquired it yet they make no move to revoke the credentials [unlikely since 20th century banks have solved this problem - Shepard being able to use the IFF to travel through the Omega 4 relay makes much sense as you being able to continue using a credit card after reporting it stolen]

Mass Effect is not, and has never been, this "sublime" exemplary-in-every-way masterpiece, and there is nothing wrong with liking it... however, if you claim that these plotholes don't exist (because you are afraid to admit to liking something that isn't sublimely perfect) then you have to accept that you may get called out on this.

Modifié par AlexMBrennan, 24 novembre 2013 - 10:16 .

[David7204]

I don't deny any of those problems exist. I have to say your continual shilling of data security at every opportunity is not nearly as impressive as you seem to think.

[dreamgazer]

David7204 wrote...

I don't deny any of those problems exist. I have to say your continual shilling of data security at every opportunity is not nearly as impressive as you seem to think.

Second column, second one down.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Ohh, pulling out your 'argument terms' Dreamgazer?

Feeling powerful?

David is probably one of the single greatest propenents for the Mind Projection Fallacy I have ever seen. And he Strawman's very well.

Higher Resolution image for your convenience

Modifié par MassivelyEffective0730, 24 novembre 2013 - 10:30 .

[David7204]

dreamgazer wrote...

David7204 wrote...

I don't deny any of those problems exist. I have to say your continual shilling of data security at every opportunity is not nearly as impressive as you seem to think.

Second column, second one down.

Wow, it's almost as if I literally did not just say "I don't deny any of those problems exist." Which is absolutely addressing the point at hand. Perhaps you should look at the poster yourself, because you've clearly failed to grasp something from it.

Sorry Dreamgazer. Any negative comment on something in any context is not an ad hominem.

Modifié par David7204, 24 novembre 2013 - 10:36 .

[dreamgazer]

David7204 wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

David7204 wrote...

I don't deny any of those problems exist. I have to say your continual shilling of data security at every opportunity is not nearly as impressive as you seem to think.

Second column, second one down.

Wow, it's almost as if I literally did not just say "I don't deny any of those problems exist." Which is absolutely addressing the point at hand. Perhaps you should look at the poster yourself, because you've clearly failed to grasp something from it.

Sorry Dreamgazer. Any negative comment on something in any context is not an ad hominem.

After he took you to task about the plot holes, which you didn't actually address, you fired back at his character.

Sorry, my friend. 

[AlexMBrennan]

I have to say your continual shilling of data security at every opportunity is not nearly as impressive as you seem to think.

It's just something I find interesting, and happen to know a bit more about then your average member of the general public and thus I tend to notice issues like that - if I had been a surgeon, I'd point out plotholes related to medicine instead. It's perfectly fine that Joe Random doesn't know about, or indeed that Bioware writers don't know about it but it is not OK for the Reapers to not know about.

The credit card example is just convenient - anyone who owns a credit card can see that we have solved this issue that brought down the Reapers' plot.

The planetary re-entry issue is similar - the writers at Bioware did not know enough physics to realise that you don't magically stop the instant you step out of a spacecraft, and thus failed to explain how Shepard magically stopped the instant he was flung into space by the explosion of the Normandy. If you are physics nerd you will probably notice this, otherwise you might not.

This explains *why* these plotholes exist (Bioware didn't hire qualified experts to consult) but it doesn't change the fact that they are plotholes.

Also, I really hope that you didn't expect me to fall for this cheap misdirection - did you really think a few insults would distract me from the fact that you quietly retracted your earlier statement ("It's true. I'd say about...80% of the supposed 'plot holes' people whine about are not plot holes or problems at all.")

[MassivelyEffective0730]

David7204 wrote...
Wow, it's almost as if I literally did not just say "I don't deny any of those problems exist." Which is absolutely addressing the point at hand. Perhaps you should look at the poster yourself, because you've clearly failed to grasp something from it.

Sorry Dreamgazer. Any negative comment on something in any context is not an ad hominem.

David7204 wrote...
I have to say your continual shilling of data security at every opportunity is not nearly as impressive as you seem to think.

This is primarily a genetic fallacy, and the tone of the statement does indeed qualify as an ad hominem.

[SlottsMachine]

I heard there was at least sixteen camps. I might have got this info from IGN though.

[SlottsMachine]

dreamgazer wrote...

David7204 wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

David7204 wrote...

I don't deny any of those problems exist. I have to say your continual shilling of data security at every opportunity is not nearly as impressive as you seem to think.

Second column, second one down.

Wow, it's almost as if I literally did not just say "I don't deny any of those problems exist." Which is absolutely addressing the point at hand. Perhaps you should look at the poster yourself, because you've clearly failed to grasp something from it.

Sorry Dreamgazer. Any negative comment on something in any context is not an ad hominem.

After he took you to task about the plot holes, which you didn't actually address, you fired back at his character.

Sorry, my friend. 

How could you Dave? I thought you where above this. 

[GreyLycanTrope]

As far as Mr. Hulk goes I'll stick with my initial statements on his article from way back when. Long story short he doesn't know what he's talking about.
http://social.biowar...7823/1#13548197
http://social.biowar...7585/3#13719558
The second thread is funnier imo, mainly since BlueProtoss puts in an appearance.

Modifié par Greylycantrope, 24 novembre 2013 - 10:57 .

[Br3admax]

I like it when people use fallacies. It helps me learn the language of another culture.

[ruggly]

Greylycantrope wrote...

As far as Mr. Hulk goes I'll stick with my initial statements on his article from way back when. Long story short he doesn't know what he's talking about.
http://social.biowar...7823/1#13548197
http://social.biowar...7585/3#13719558
The second thread is funnier imo, mainly since BlueProtoss puts in an appearance.

From what I gathered from what little I could actually read, he likes the ending because it's different from what you usually see.  I scoffed a little at the part where he (she?) thought the original conversation was full and in-depth, which it was not in my opinion.  I'll give Bioware for trying something different, but I'll maintain that the execution was just plain awful. But the whole Hulk delivery of criticisms doesn't really make me take his word seriously.  Clearly that ending catered to his likes, but not to mine.

[Wayning_Star]

IN before the ad hominem, false  dichotomy poised as a scare crow argument... brought forth the Mod.

[AlanC9]

AlexMBrennan wrote...

The planetary re-entry issue is similar - the writers at Bioware did not know enough physics to realise that you don't magically stop the instant you step out of a spacecraft, and thus failed to explain how Shepard magically stopped the instant he was flung into space by the explosion of the Normandy. If you are physics nerd you will probably notice this, otherwise you might not.

Or you notice this but don't care because you don't know the Normandy's velocity in the first place. Most of the complaints about that scene are clueless. The real physics nerds come clean and admit that they're assuming something like orbital velocity, but a lot of posters don't realize they're making an assumption.

Modifié par AlanC9, 24 novembre 2013 - 11:17 .