176 réponses à ce sujet

[SwobyJ]

Linkenski wrote...

The Citadel is a love-letter to fans that has nothing to do with ME3 when it comes down to it. I'd rather focus on finding different perspectives that makes the ending enjoyable.

But I think I just have. Just check the other thread called "Threat Raised by the Existence of the Catalyst" in the spoilers section.

It's a really good way to look at the Catalyst's character, that makes a lot more sense than if you take the ending only by face-value.

Not quite. I got much farther into mind-bending ideas than IT, and I consider Citadel DLC to be the best and most relevant DLC of the series in my perspective. It's a love letter to us all, but maybe some of us don't realize that yet.
(*note: this is just my guess, don't worry)

[AlanC9]

Linkenski wrote...

The Citadel is a love-letter to fans that has nothing to do with ME3 when it comes down to it. I'd rather focus on finding different perspectives that makes the ending enjoyable.

But I think I just have. Just check the other thread called "Threat Raised by the Existence of the Catalyst" in the spoilers section.

It's a really good way to look at the Catalyst's character, that makes a lot more sense than if you take the ending only by face-value.

When you say "take the ending only by face-value," what do you mean?

[SwobyJ]

I guess Link means "Catalyst is entirely right and Shepard is helpless against its logic"?

Which is weird, because many people rightly distrust it. It's really all up to the player.

Link can clarify, I could be wrong.

[Obadiah]

SwobyJ wrote...

Obadiah wrote...

Interpretation:

For the three games Shepard is treated as an asset. In ME2 this is explicitly stated by Miranda. He is repeatedly pushed to the side when his opionion is considered less than useful as Udina did in ME1, or manipulated for someone else's agenda as the Illusive Man does in ME2. In the end the powers that be, the Council and Cerberus, all lose control of him and he unites the galaxy, actually bypassing the Council, on his own terms and gains more power that they ever expected - comrades at all levels of different societies are loyal to him, and agents like STG are willing to defy their superiors for him.

In the end he is made to come to a solution which none of his superiors may have thought to expect. It may be the last solution that Shepard himself wants to enact, and some may find it unacceptable and horrible.

Shepard is almost a Catalyst parallel, except on the Organic side.

The cycle continues.

I sure hope it doesn't! At least not the same Cycle as before, or possibly that the Leviathans had ('harvest of tribute'?).

The cycle I referred to was a cycle of power accumulated to a few (or one) and used to impose an unrequested change  - whether its Leviathan controlling the galaxy, the Catalyst controlling the cycles, or Shepard breaking free of the Reaper cycles with the options.

I suppose that in that sense, to truly break the cycle, one must give up power and select the Refuse option.

[AlanC9]

Obadiah wrote...

I suppose that in that sense, to truly break the cycle, one must give up power and select the Refuse option.

Of course, that just leaves the Catalyst in place.....

[SwobyJ]

AlanC9 wrote...

Obadiah wrote...

I suppose that in that sense, to truly break the cycle, one must give up power and select the Refuse option.

Of course, that just leaves the Catalyst in place.....

Yeah, we're not there yet.

Even on an outright literal view:
Destroy - Reaper Cycle broken, back to one of organic evolution and conflict with synthetics
Control - Reaper Cycle ended, replaced by hopefully a more positive one where Reapers intervene only when things get out of hand
Synthesis - Reaper Cycle ended, replaced by ...hmm, I wonder WHAT happens there? Synth-EDI makes it sound like they're boundless now, but are they?

[Linkenski]

SwobyJ wrote...

I guess Link means "Catalyst is entirely right and Shepard is helpless against its logic"?

Which is weird, because many people rightly distrust it. It's really all up to the player.

Link can clarify, I could be wrong.

Nononono that's the opposite, but I got lost for words and I accidentally wrote "face-value". The Catalyst is illogical, but intentionally written so (post-EC) and it goes to prove that the threat of AI is existential because the Catalyst is a result of what happens when a spacefaring race creates an AI with so much power... something like that. I still feel like that's a bad explanation, but check that other topic I mentioned.

Modifié par Linkenski, 17 novembre 2013 - 09:50 .

[Obadiah]

SwobyJ wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Obadiah wrote...

I suppose that in that sense, to truly break the cycle, one must give up power and select the Refuse option.

Of course, that just leaves the Catalyst in place.....

Yeah, we're not there yet.

Even on an outright literal view:
Destroy - Reaper Cycle broken, back to one of organic evolution and conflict with synthetics
Control - Reaper Cycle ended, replaced by hopefully a more positive one where Reapers intervene only when things get out of hand
Synthesis - Reaper Cycle ended, replaced by ...hmm, I wonder WHAT happens there? Synth-EDI makes it sound like they're boundless now, but are they?

To just carry the power theme through to the choices:

Destroy - Accept the power and use it to destroy the power, and pay a heavy sacrifice
Control - Accept the power to perhaps use it for a greater good (Gandalf using the ring I guess)
Synthesis - Accept the power to disperse it to and empower everyone in the hope that the balance of power is now even enough to prevent another one-sided catastropic use of it.
Refuse - Reject the power, we Organics and Synthetics will defeat the Reapers on our own

Modifié par Obadiah, 17 novembre 2013 - 10:22 .

[SwobyJ]

Linkenski wrote...

SwobyJ wrote...

I guess Link means "Catalyst is entirely right and Shepard is helpless against its logic"?

Which is weird, because many people rightly distrust it. It's really all up to the player.

Link can clarify, I could be wrong.

Nononono that's the opposite, but I got lost for words and I accidentally wrote "face-value". The Catalyst is illogical, but intentionally written so (post-EC) and it goes to prove that the threat of AI is existential because the Catalyst is a result of what happens when a spacefaring race creates an AI with so much power... something like that. I still feel like that's a bad explanation, but check that other topic I mentioned.

Okay, no problem.

[SwobyJ]

Yep. Except that yeah, Control/Synthesis compromises what you once were (Destruction of Collector Base: "I won't let fear compomise who I am).

Once you use the enemy's methods, you are no longer the same. It's only with Destroy (which is still an enemy method, but I have personal theories on that) that you keep ENOUGH of yourself to continue, but imo it still might be akin to Frodo - 'tainted' by the experience enough that there is just no way of being the Commander Shepard of before.

Only way to stay pure is Refuse. But at the same time, that isn't as appropriate, to the writers. You've facing the giant robots NOW, and something MUST be done. If not, you've simply left the keys for the next people to do so, and that's OK. Just... not a story likely to continue (assuming any sequel happens), like ShepDies in ME2.

Modifié par SwobyJ, 17 novembre 2013 - 10:29 .

[Obadiah]

Its a compromise IF Shep destroyed the Collector Base. That's probably why keeping the Collector Base in ME2 leads to, in low EMS, only the Control option. In that case Shep has thematically agreed with Legion that information (which becomes power in ME3) has no intrinsic ethical value. Using it can save them.

Heh, if Shep destroyed the Collector Base, is Control or Synthesis a "compromise" or an "evolution"? Dun DUNNNNN.....

Modifié par Obadiah, 17 novembre 2013 - 10:44 .

[SwobyJ]

Uh, what? Keeping the base is compromising Shepard for a Reaper tech path. Literally.

So is Control. Using Reaper tech.

Destroy: Least compromise of self, least immediate evolution (stuck in evolution dictated more by conflict)
Control: Medium compromise of self, medium immediate evolution (you know, 'controlled' evolution)
Synthesis: High compromise of self, high immediate evolution (transcending natural boundaries)

Self = Yourself as a born organic that would otherwise chart your own evolutionary path, like Legion in ME2 wanted synthetics to chart their own path, WITHOUT 'Reaper gifts'.

And considering the enemies ahead, (assuming sequel), maybe high evolution would help... I'm not speaking against it really. We don't really know what is next. One could easily headcanon an adversary where picking Synthesis earlier means a better way to counter or defeat it.

Modifié par SwobyJ, 17 novembre 2013 - 10:50 .

[Obadiah]

Just realized, the dead Krogan scouts in the ME3 Rachni mission make the same choice Shepard does in Refuse, "They died so we could make it to the central chamber." They died so that those who came after would succeed.

[favoritehookeronthecitadel]

I think that Garrus' calibrations were what really saved Shepard in the Destroy ending. It makes so much more sense. I would've payed for the DLC then.

[Obadiah]

Interpretation:

The Reapers are the ultimate instance of a goverment agency run amok, to the point that it determines the government (Leviathan) are part of the problem, and it stages a coup. When we Organics finally confont it, its response is, "Hey! I'm just doing the job you gave me!"

Cerberus would be the more explicit version of this.

[Chashan]

Obadiah wrote...

Interpretation:

The Reapers are the ultimate instance of a goverment agency run amok, to the point that it determines the government (Leviathan) are part of the problem, and it stages a coup. When we Organics finally confont it, its response is, "Hey! I'm just doing the job you gave me!"

Cerberus would be the more explicit version of this.

This would only work if the thing was characterized in a more confrontational way through-out, and not just at low EMS (and even then, it coming across as a petulant brat rather than an enraged god doesn't help). It would need to show genuine frustration with the turn of events no matter how high the EMS is.

Since that does not happen, also due to it not being much of a character to begin with, I do not see this as entirely valid.

[FlyingSquirrel]

I have headcanon interpretations of Synthesis and Control that I tend to keep in mind for any Shepards who pick them:

Synthesis - The "upgrades" are inactive at first, and stay that way until the individuals affected decide to activate them. It does not effect wholesale changes of people's motivations or personalities, but gives them the ability to process and understand more information and more efficiently. So while the galaxy is more peaceful, it's not because synthesis somehow *forces* everyone to play nice, but rather because they choose to do so after expanding their perpsectives. I don't see it as leading to a completely different society or to immortality, just as diminishing some of the conflicts and challenges that the galaxy was facing before. This is what the Catalyst means when it says that synthesis cannot be forced, and Shepard knows that when jumping into the beam.

Control - The Shepard-AI negotiates some sort of agreement with the survivors that places clear limits on when the Reapers can intervene directly and leads the Reapers - now freed of the Catalyst's control and restrictions - by consensus rather than as some sort of slavemaster. (I ifgure that if the Reapers retain all the memories and experiences of harvested species, they may have relatively benign intentions once allowed to consider perspectives other than the Catalyst's.)

[dorktainian]

re: OP

How about the whole of the mass effect trilogy being jokers 'fight club' story?










I'll get mi coat.

[CronoDragoon]

Another thread full of intelligent arguments and interpretations of Control. STOP IT GUYS I DON'T WANT TO FEEL THIS WAY

[Reorte]

FlyingSquirrel wrote...

Control - The Shepard-AI negotiates some sort of agreement with the survivors that places clear limits on when the Reapers can intervene directly and leads the Reapers - now freed of the Catalyst's control and restrictions - by consensus rather than as some sort of slavemaster. (I ifgure that if the Reapers retain all the memories and experiences of harvested species, they may have relatively benign intentions once allowed to consider perspectives other than the Catalyst's.)

The problem with that is that it assumes that the Reapers are something fundamentally different from what they were created to be. Why would they have ever been created one way and coerced into another? IMO Control works best if they were made to view the Catalyst as godlike, so follow it out of the equivalence of religious conviction. It can't stray too far from their fundamental nature for that to work. That means Control would have to try to subtley shift them - possible but risky.

[FlyingSquirrel]

Reorte wrote...

FlyingSquirrel wrote...

Control - The Shepard-AI negotiates some sort of agreement with the survivors that places clear limits on when the Reapers can intervene directly and leads the Reapers - now freed of the Catalyst's control and restrictions - by consensus rather than as some sort of slavemaster. (I ifgure that if the Reapers retain all the memories and experiences of harvested species, they may have relatively benign intentions once allowed to consider perspectives other than the Catalyst's.)

The problem with that is that it assumes that the Reapers are something fundamentally different from what they were created to be. Why would they have ever been created one way and coerced into another? IMO Control works best if they were made to view the Catalyst as godlike, so follow it out of the equivalence of religious conviction. It can't stray too far from their fundamental nature for that to work. That means Control would have to try to subtley shift them - possible but risky.

Well, here's how I see it. And I acknowledge that this is just my interpretation, but I think it's a reasonable one based on what we've seen in the games.

Absent the Catalyst's interference, the Reapers are basically collections of thoughts, memories, and ideas from harvested species. They never had a chance to form values or intentions of their own, because the Catalyst's baseline assumptions - that unchecked development of technological civilizations would eventually lead to synthetics exterminating all organics, and that the cycles were necessary in order to prevent this - have been guiding them from the moment they were activated. (Whether they know about the Catalyst itself and its origins is a separate issue - I think Harbinger and the Rannoch Reaper probably do and Sovereign probably does not.)

When Shepard initiates Control and AI-Shepard is created, the link to the Catalyst's assumptions is severed. However, the Reapers do not lose the capacity for consciousness when this happens. Free to formulate their own opinions and points of view, they would rely heavily on the experiences and thoughts of the harvested species - most of whom, we can safely assume, did not want to be harvested, valued their own identities and freedom to some extent, and may quite reasonably decide that the Catalyst and the Leviathans were full of crap. It's almost like a new entity being born inside an old body.

AI-Shepard *can* simply seize control of them, or indoctrinate them with the assumptions and values of the real-life Shepard, but that doesn't mean it would immediately do so. A Paragon-based AI-Shepard, in particular, would probably just deactivate their weapons and order them to withdraw so it can have some time to ascertain the remaining Reapers' thinking rather than just imposing mind control. (Though maybe Harbinger would have to be sent on a long vacation in dark space if being created from the Leviathans means he retains their attitudes from before the Catalyst or the cycles.)

[Obadiah]

The creepy part of the Reapers is, what if all of those uploaded minds of the cycles with their knowledge of their own history and behavior, what if once they were made into beings of pure logic they came to the same conclusions as the Catalyst?

Modifié par Obadiah, 20 novembre 2013 - 08:29 .

[Iakus]

Obadiah wrote...

The creepy part of the Reapers is, what if all of those uploaded minds of the cycles with their knowledge of their own history and behavior, what if once they were made into beings of pure logic they came to the same conclusions as the Catalyst?

Or the Reapers themselves are indoctrinated by the Catalyst.

[ElSuperGecko]

Four choices. One chance. Shepard can:

- Remember what his/her allies and friends are fighting for, and end the Reaper threat once and for all
- Assume the role of the Illusive man, and become the Reaper of Humanity
- Hand the Crucible's power to the Catalyst, allowing it to complete it's Grand Design
- Give up and simply wait for the inevitable

...what will YOU choose?