253 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

I find the Jack romance of ME2 disturbing and sexist on multiple levels, personally. It's poor leadership to **** around with your subordinates, it's easily predatory to sleep with a traumatized and socially isolated person you recently befriended, and pinning Jack's entire rehabilitation in ME2 on getting Shepard's healing **** was downright sexist on its own and in the context of many of the other females in the game.

This is why you keep Jack alive in ME3, so it makes clear that she finds rehabilitation either way.

[Dean_the_Young]

Xilizhra wrote...

I find the Jack romance of ME2 disturbing and sexist on multiple levels, personally. It's poor leadership to **** around with your subordinates, it's easily predatory to sleep with a traumatized and socially isolated person you recently befriended, and pinning Jack's entire rehabilitation in ME2 on getting Shepard's healing **** was downright sexist on its own and in the context of many of the other females in the game.

This is why you keep Jack alive in ME3, so it makes clear that she finds rehabilitation either way.

Nah, that one was just poor writing. If you have to jump a character to a completely different context and emotional balance in the time skip to fix them, you're really just fixing your own development arc. As it is, it just leaves unanswered questions that don't support the conceit- like why anyone would trust a reviled and feared criminal with a well deserved reputation and severe emotional issues to teach children in one of the more elite schools in the galaxy. Now, if ME2 had offered any real indication she wanted to help children, or reasons why any reputable school would want to take her in...

...well, it probably wouldn't change that Jack overshadows the students, and that I find a coming of age struggle more compelling than 'Jack gets revenge-therapy at muzzle velocity.'

[Br3admax]

Just to throw this out there, you don't actually sleep with Jack in ME2. And it's not like the story took place over three days. That doesn't justify anything, but you're blowing it out of proportions a little. It's certainly not as bad as what FemShep does to James.

[Br3admax]

StreetMagic wrote...

You're worse than my grandma. And she was an 80 year old lady who thought D&D was devil worship and listened bible radio shows all the time.

Loosen the **** up.

Context. Remember it. 

[iOnlySignIn]

Xilizhra wrote...

I find the Jack romance of ME2 disturbing and sexist on multiple levels, personally. It's poor leadership to **** around with your subordinates, it's easily predatory to sleep with a traumatized and socially isolated person you recently befriended, and pinning Jack's entire rehabilitation in ME2 on getting Shepard's healing **** was downright sexist on its own and in the context of many of the other females in the game.

This is why you keep Jack alive in ME3, so it makes clear that she finds rehabilitation either way.

My FemShep Renegade-dialogued Jack into killing Aresh, encouraged her to embrace the Dark Side ("A bullet in the head solves everything"), and she does perfectly fine in ME3 anyway.

[Dean_the_Young]

AlexMBrennan wrote...

It's poor leadership to **** around with your subordinates, it's easily predatory to sleep with a traumatized and socially isolated person you recently befriended

How is that different from the rest?

Which part? Taking advantage of emotional trauma, or improper action of an authority figure? Besides that the other romances don't amount to playing on the emotional trauma and abuse of the other person, on professional and leadership grounds I don't approve of any of the in-team Bioware romances.

Tali would have died twice without Shepard's intervention, Kelly was rescued from liquification, and the same applies to Garrus and Thane. All of the characters owe Shepard their lives so there is always an element of coercion.

Besides that I wasn't suggest coercion... on the balance of them I don't respect any of the Shepard/crewmate relationships, and especially the ones on the fireteam. Screwing below you in your chain of command poisons an environment- screwing in your immediate work group is a recipie for destroying it. It's a wonderful way to break trust, especially in leadership figures who are now openly (or not so openly) implicitly biased rather than the impartiality that is needed for good organizational leadership. 

Sleeping within the team is one of those wonderful cases of bad leadership that, if you're in the position of having to justify it, you've already lost perspective.

[Dean_the_Young]

StreetMagic wrote...

Just to add, the way I see the Jack trauma is the way I already see Shep.. and he connects because of shared experience and upbringing and survival instincts. Liara tries to connect and emphathize with Shepard because she sees a little through mind melding or researching and I guess she's a bit like Sha'ira or other Asari who are very empathetic. But to me, it's inhuman. The natural thing for my Shepard (or my real life self) to do is connect and share things with likeminded individuals. Not aliens who can probe my mind. Some people like to have fun with that idea instead. To each their own.

Not that I need to defend my Romance choices in Mass Effect, but just saying.

Sure. And if you were in a military environment, we'd chew you out and kick you out. Your Shepard is the sort of person that breaks units and gets people killed through their emotional immaturity- immaturity of choice or immaturity of background, it doesn't matter. They shouldn't be in a position of authority or responsiblity if they can't avoid the naked conflict of interest.

[Dean_the_Young]

StreetMagic wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

StreetMagic wrote...

You're worse than my grandma. And she was an 80 year old lady who thought D&D was devil worship and listened bible radio shows all the time.

Loosen the **** up.

Context. Remember it. 

No, not you. Sorry. I meant Dean. It's starting to feel like Sunday School around here. **** this place. Too much Paragon wankery.

...this is highly amusing for reasons you demonstratably don't know enough to realize.

[Dean_the_Young]

Br3ad wrote...

Just to throw this out there, you don't actually sleep with Jack in ME2.

I figure it's more than open enough that you are... especially with the achievement and the ME3 dialogue factored in. I have a hard time believing they are chaste lovers, and they only have until shortly after Arrival to be anything but before ME3's reunion.

And it's not like the story took place over three days.

True... but Jack's LI dialogue might as well have.

One reason I appreciate romances that are more strung along the length of the plot- I might not approve of the ME1 romances, but they did a better job of establishing interest and romantic buildup across a number of scenes.

That doesn't justify anything, but you're blowing it out of proportions a little. It's certainly not as bad as what FemShep does to James.

James is a naked abuse of position, but Jack is an implicit abuse of emotional vulnerability. I personally dislike the later more than the former.

[Dean_the_Young]

StreetMagic wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

StreetMagic wrote...

Just to add, the way I see the Jack trauma is the way I already see Shep.. and he connects because of shared experience and upbringing and survival instincts. Liara tries to connect and emphathize with Shepard because she sees a little through mind melding or researching and I guess she's a bit like Sha'ira or other Asari who are very empathetic. But to me, it's inhuman. The natural thing for my Shepard (or my real life self) to do is connect and share things with likeminded individuals. Not aliens who can probe my mind. Some people like to have fun with that idea instead. To each their own.

Not that I need to defend my Romance choices in Mass Effect, but just saying.

Sure. And if you were in a military environment, we'd chew you out and kick you out. Your Shepard is the sort of person that breaks units and gets people killed through their emotional immaturity- immaturity of choice or immaturity of background, it doesn't matter. They shouldn't be in a position of authority or responsiblity if they can't avoid the naked conflict of interest.

Irrelevant. I'd already get kicked out in basic. Besides that, I just see these game characters like any other group of RPG adventurers. It's not a real military environment, dude.

Indeed. I just take some enjoyment in pointing out that not only is it not a real military environment, but a bad one. Some people are so wrapped up in the 'my Shepard is a good person', complete with the game's 'you're an amazing soldier/leader/friend' pandering, that it's more amusing to point out that they'd make pretty bad hero-protagonists when they do [you know who]unheroic[/you know who] things.

Anyways, you're truly unbearable. Gotta hand it to you. I don't know if you're trolling or not, but no one actually annoys me this quickly. Congrats, I guess?

I'll admit, your opening insult did make for a poor first impression of you. You just fell deeper after that when you couldn't take indirect needling.

[Br3admax]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

Just to throw this out there, you don't actually sleep with Jack in ME2.

I figure it's more than open enough that you are... especially with the achievement and the ME3 dialogue factored in. I have a hard time believing they are chaste lovers, and they only have until shortly after Arrival to be anything but before ME3's reunion.

But nothing about that makes it have to happen within the time frame of ME2, which is months within itself. Fast forward six months, it's almost a year since the start of ME2. There's a lot of time inbetween there. Gaining the achievment isn't even a story thing, so it's really irrelevant. 

And it's not like the story took place over three days.

True... but Jack's LI dialogue might as well have.

One reason I appreciate romances that are more strung along the length of the plot- I might not approve of the ME1 romances, but they did a better job of establishing interest and romantic buildup across a number of scenes.

Romances can't start until after loyalty missions which is already well into the story of ME2. And even then they have to progress to a certain point in the story. It's well over a month, in game, let alone a few days. 

That doesn't justify anything, but you're blowing it out of proportions a little. It's certainly not as bad as what FemShep does to James.

James is a naked abuse of position, but Jack is an implicit abuse of emotional vulnerability. I personally dislike the later more than the former.

James is an abuse of a lot of things, position being the least among them. I find that date raping someone is a lot worse than trying to draw a connection with someone of similary traumatizing situations. 

[Dean_the_Young]

[quote]Br3ad wrote...

[quote]Dean_the_Young wrote...

[quote]Br3ad wrote...

Just to throw this out there, you don't actually sleep with Jack in ME2.[/quote]I figure it's more than open enough that you are... especially with the achievement and the ME3 dialogue factored in. I have a hard time believing they are chaste lovers, and they only have until shortly after Arrival to be anything but before ME3's reunion.
[/quote]
But nothing about that makes it have to happen within the time frame of ME2, which is months within itself. Fast forward six months, it's almost a year since the start of ME2. There's a lot of time inbetween there. Gaining the achievment isn't even a story thing, so it's really irrelevant. [/quote]I'd disagree on the last, but my point was more that the romance, such as it is, isn't even structured as one that takes place over a significant amount of time.

[quote]
[quote]
[quote]And it's not like the story took place over three days. [/quote]True... but Jack's LI dialogue might as well have.

One reason I appreciate romances that are more strung along the length of the plot- I might not approve of the ME1 romances, but they did a better job of establishing interest and romantic buildup across a number of scenes.
[/quote]
Romances can't start until after loyalty missions which is already well into the story of ME2. And even then they have to progress to a certain point in the story. It's well over a month, in game, let alone a few days. [/quote]Since I was talking meta-mechanics and structure, I'll disagree on a very basic premise- plenty of games have flirting and flags be available before companion quests, if there are any. ME1 had it- so did ME3 in various forms.

ME2 would have been harder, given it's plot structure, but you could have introduced the potential flags and such for a romance arc before the loyalty quests begin. Given that the structure was an artificial construct, the idea that they couldn't do it any other ways rings hollow.



[quote]
[quote]That doesn't justify anything, but you're blowing it out of proportions a little. It's certainly not as bad as what FemShep does to James. [/quote]James is a naked abuse of position, but Jack is an implicit abuse of emotional vulnerability. I personally dislike the later more than the former.
[/quote]
James is an abuse of a lot of things, position being the least among them. I find that date raping someone is a lot worse than trying to draw a connection with someone of similary traumatizing situations. 

[/quote]You know, I had forgotten about the Citadel DLC piece. I concede on that squick factor of degrees... and hate you for bringing it back to my mind.

Damn you!

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 17 novembre 2013 - 03:47 .

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Personally, I enjoyed the mission- granted, I vastly prefer it when Kasumi is absent, same as most of the other ME2-cameo missions (which, by and large, are all pretty self-referential and more style over substance).

Co-sign. It didn't help that Kasumi was being a complete tool throughout the mission.

I, however, will say I do prefer GA with Jack around. Just personal bias preference.

Modifié par HYR 2.0, 17 novembre 2013 - 04:37 .

[DeinonSlayer]

[quote]Dean_the_Young wrote...

[quote]Br3ad wrote...

[quote]Dean_the_Young wrote...

[quote]Br3ad wrote...

Just to throw this out there, you don't actually sleep with Jack in ME2.[/quote]I figure it's more than open enough that you are... especially with the achievement and the ME3 dialogue factored in. I have a hard time believing they are chaste lovers, and they only have until shortly after Arrival to be anything but before ME3's reunion.
[/quote]
But nothing about that makes it have to happen within the time frame of ME2, which is months within itself. Fast forward six months, it's almost a year since the start of ME2. There's a lot of time inbetween there. Gaining the achievment isn't even a story thing, so it's really irrelevant. [/quote]I'd disagree on the last, but my point was more that the romance, such as it is, isn't even structured as one that takes place over a significant amount of time.

[quote]
[quote]
[quote]And it's not like the story took place over three days. [/quote]True... but Jack's LI dialogue might as well have.

One reason I appreciate romances that are more strung along the length of the plot- I might not approve of the ME1 romances, but they did a better job of establishing interest and romantic buildup across a number of scenes.
[/quote]
Romances can't start until after loyalty missions which is already well into the story of ME2. And even then they have to progress to a certain point in the story. It's well over a month, in game, let alone a few days. [/quote]Since I was talking meta-mechanics and structure, I'll disagree on a very basic premise- plenty of games have flirting and flags be available before companion quests, if there are any. ME1 had it- so did ME3 in various forms.

ME2 would have been harder, given it's plot structure, but you could have introduced the potential flags and such for a romance arc before the loyalty quests begin. Given that the structure was an artificial construct, the idea that they couldn't do it any other ways rings hollow.[/quote]One of the reasons I see the dextro romances as more "meaningful," for lack of a better word, was that there was more time and interaction between them and Shepard before anything got serious. I get a bit miffed that Liara is trying to get in my PC's pants the second time I speak to her in ME1.

[quote][quote][quote][quote]That doesn't justify anything, but you're blowing it out of proportions a little. It's certainly not as bad as what FemShep does to James. [/quote]James is a naked abuse of position, but Jack is an implicit abuse of emotional vulnerability. I personally dislike the later more than the former.
[/quote]
James is an abuse of a lot of things, position being the least among them. I find that date raping someone is a lot worse than trying to draw a connection with someone of similary traumatizing situations. 

[/quote]You know, I had forgotten about the Citadel DLC piece. I concede on that squick factor of degrees... and hate you for bringing it back to my mind.

Damn you! [/quote]That was probably one of the most... uncomfortable angles of the entire trilogy. And a demonstration of why one shouldn't always cave to consumer demand - not that they do, but this was just...

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 17 novembre 2013 - 04:44 .

[Star fury]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Sure. And if you were in a military environment, we'd chew you out and kick you out. Your Shepard is the sort of person that breaks units and gets people killed through their emotional immaturity- immaturity of choice or immaturity of background, it doesn't matter. They shouldn't be in a position of authority or responsiblity if they can't avoid the naked conflict of interest.

Nice theory in an ideal army. But real officers in real militaries sleep with their subordinates all the time, even married ones. It's a question of emotions and physiology. Maybe the U.S. army consists of saints and the likes of general Jeffrey Sinclair are just exceptions, but somehow I doubt it.

[YouKnowMyName]

Normally I don't double post, but since I feel this is a bit too important to let go...

I have aspergerers, and I find this discussion a bit offensive...

Some of us are actually able to feel emotion!

I know society teach that every aspergers is apathetical, but this is not true. Many of us actually feel empathy, even if it sometimes is limited.

Not all of us are mentally insane either.

Just so you know.

[Sundance31us]

Linkenski wrote...

Still, the whole "indoctrinated Hanar" idea just reeked of sillyness and THAT was intentional. The fact that they shoved in the "big stupid jellyfish" (which was never funny) gave away that the quest was just for the lolz, and that's a big offense to do when you bring down the Hanar/Drell homeworld, which I DID care about.

No more silly than doing the orginal Hanar side-quest (Citadel: Presidium Prophet) in ME1.

And you don't need to say the "big stupid jellyfish" line in either game.

[YouKnowMyName]

As for the topic itself, I think a quest about Kahje should have been more epic and important, and I agree it should involve Thane. The original content about Thane dying for the hanar homeworld made a lot more sense.

I am not sure, but aren't the big stupid jellyfish line forced in ME3 through autodialogue?

[dreamgazer]

YouKnowMyName wrote...

I am not sure, but aren't the big stupid jellyfish line forced in ME3 through autodialogue?

Yes, in response to the hanar's explanation of his motives. 

[Br3admax]

It was an amazing piece of auto-dialogue though. I do not mind.

[dreamgazer]

Br3ad wrote...

It was an amazing piece of auto-dialogue though. I do not mind.

I didn't either, considering what Shepard was responding to.