55 réponses à ce sujet

[Eruanna Guerrein]

M-Taylor wrote...

Xandurpein wrote...

I have to disagree. I found the funeral scene very moving, especially if the you had a love interest in the game present (Leliana in my case). It just shows we can percieve things differently.

I disagree, for the most part. Atleast, female wardens in a romance with Alistair to me feel cheated.

His speech basically goes through the motions of a 12 year old boy, saying he thought they were going to be together forever, to a seeminglessly effortless and unemotional transiction to a 'Oh well. Thanks for dying for me. Toodles, have fun in the afterlife.'

However, the writing for Leliana was indeed epic. I was very moved by her reactions to my male wardens death.

Edit: I didn't mean it to sound like a dig to the writers, I thought the whole game was very well written, but I was mildly disappointed with my ending with Alistair. We basically spent an entire year travelling together, life threatning situations on a daily basis, basically everything a relationship -could- go through, for him not to care very much? Maybe it was because I made him King. It might of been a better ending if I put Anora on the throne

Alistair talks like he's king even if he isn't so I doubt it would be different. The developers rushed the end and didn't create different dialogue for that choice. :/

And I think it's worse if you live as a HN, as far as Fergus is concerned. You see him there and it's just like a normal conversation. No, "OMG, Fergus! You're alive!" Nothing. It's like you expected him to be there. Very anticlimatic and disappointing.

[Korva]

Gerrawn wrote...

It would just be so kick-ass if he just burst in during the voting at the landsmeet going all; "HIGHEVER STANDS WITH THE GREY WARDENS!"

Damn, that would have been so kickass!  Great idea. Too bad they did not write it that way. It's a real shame you only get closure with big brother if you don't sacrifice yourself. A dramatic Landsmeet appearance followed by an emotional private reunion moment would be much more satisfying.

Xandurpein wrote...

I have to disagree. I found the
funeral scene very moving, especially if the you had a love interest in
the game present (Leliana in my case).

Uhm -- there was no reaction whatsoever in my game. Is it a bug in the F/F euology scene or just a random bug? I got the "together forever" line from Alistair and thought it was great for a platonic relationship to get that kind of emotional acknowledgment. Leliana was just as much of a silent blob in the background as the rest of the party.

[DarthCaine]

The best ending is to harden Alistair, not kill Loghain, and make him kill the archdemon

[Xandurpein]

Korva wrote...

Gerrawn wrote...

It would just be so kick-ass if he just burst in during the voting at the landsmeet going all; "HIGHEVER STANDS WITH THE GREY WARDENS!"

Damn, that would have been so kickass!  Great idea. Too bad they did not write it that way. It's a real shame you only get closure with big brother if you don't sacrifice yourself. A dramatic Landsmeet appearance followed by an emotional private reunion moment would be much more satisfying.

Xandurpein wrote...

I have to disagree. I found the
funeral scene very moving, especially if the you had a love interest in
the game present (Leliana in my case).

Uhm -- there was no reaction whatsoever in my game. Is it a bug in the F/F euology scene or just a random bug? I got the "together forever" line from Alistair and thought it was great for a platonic relationship to get that kind of emotional acknowledgment. Leliana was just as much of a silent blob in the background as the rest of the party.

I never finished a game with a female/female Leliana relationship, but with my male,  the camera zoomed in on Leliana's face and you could see the tears.

[Eudaemonium]

To be honest, I wouldn't have minded if this (if it was in the game, which, alas, it isn't) was unique to HN Wardens. It would have been a nice touch. Personally, I would have liked a bit more Origin-specific features in the main game, possibly in the form of quests, etc, other than simply altered dialogue at various points. As it is the only ones who really *add* stuff beyond the Origins are Dalish Elf (an encounter) and Dwarf Noble (a quest - and even then, only if you're male).

[ejoslin]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Gerrawn wrote...

It would just be so kick-ass if he just burst in during the voting at the landsmeet going all; "HIGHEVER STANDS WITH THE GREY WARDENS!"

Totally. So much win here......

The human noble is the only origin where you never, in game, get to run into people from your origin, or return to it, until the epilogue. (except Howe, but you end up killing him no matter what origin you play) Every other origin you run into old friends/foes/lovers/family. But as a human noble, you really are alone. It would have been nice to have been able to find Fergus.

Actually, my impression of the human noble is the opposite -- you get more interaction with your past.  When you talk to the nobles in the tavern, they know you and offer their support (and one offers bowmen).  Even at the beginning, the king knows who you are, as does Loghain.  As does Bann Teagan, actually.

Edit: And I agree, Fergus bursting in at that moment would be priceless!

Modifié par ejoslin, 24 janvier 2010 - 03:51 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

[quote]Gerrawn wrote...

It would just be so kick-ass if he just burst in during the voting at the landsmeet going all; "HIGHEVER STANDS WITH THE GREY WARDENS!"[/quote]
[/quote]

*adds to the list of things to mod*


Dangnammit. The Landsmeet needs LOTS and LOTS of work....

[Thiefy]

ejoslin wrote...

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Gerrawn wrote...

It would just be so kick-ass if he just burst in during the voting at the landsmeet going all; "HIGHEVER STANDS WITH THE GREY WARDENS!"

Totally. So much win here......

The human noble is the only origin where you never, in game, get to run into people from your origin, or return to it, until the epilogue. (except Howe, but you end up killing him no matter what origin you play) Every other origin you run into old friends/foes/lovers/family. But as a human noble, you really are alone. It would have been nice to have been able to find Fergus.

Actually, my impression of the human noble is the opposite -- you get more interaction with your past.  When you talk to the nobles in the tavern, they know you and offer their support (and one offers bowmen).  Even at the beginning, the king knows who you are, as does Loghain.  As does Bann Teagan, actually.

Edit: And I agree, Fergus bursting in at that moment would be priceless!

i think they meant on a more personal level. All the other origins get a more personal interaction with their origins except human noble.

may or may not have something to do with everyone being dead, but it could just me.

i agree it would have been nicer to get more of an emotional nod to that origin, but at the same time i also think it's great too, because the lack of something can also speak volumes more.

maybe it's the romantic in me, but after highever then ostagar, and seeing how badly Alistait took it, the game kind of took on the whole "us against the world" feeling.

[Wompoo]

I agree with you Coldcall01 that the sacrifice ending does train you never to do it again. To play a game for 60 70 or 80 hours to feel like crap at the end left a bitter taste in my mouth (I felt like finding Duncan's body so I could urinate on it).

[ejoslin]

Thief-of-Hearts wrote...

i think they meant on a more personal level. All the other origins get a more personal interaction with their origins except human noble.

may or may not have something to do with everyone being dead, but it could just me.

i agree it would have been nicer to get more of an emotional nod to that origin, but at the same time i also think it's great too, because the lack of something can also speak volumes more.

maybe it's the romantic in me, but after highever then ostagar, and seeing how badly Alistait took it, the game kind of took on the whole "us against the world" feeling.

But they were all slaughtered!  I don't know, it just struck me as the HN got the most closure.  She got support from people who knew her, she got to kill Howe, and she was obviously quite a part of the Ferelden world anyway.  While everyone gets to kill Howe, it's personal for the HN -- especially after what he says to her on top of everything else.  

Modifié par ejoslin, 24 janvier 2010 - 04:19 .

[Thiefy]

ejoslin wrote...

Thief-of-Hearts wrote...

i think they meant on a more personal level. All the other origins get a more personal interaction with their origins except human noble.

may or may not have something to do with everyone being dead, but it could just me.

i agree it would have been nicer to get more of an emotional nod to that origin, but at the same time i also think it's great too, because the lack of something can also speak volumes more.

maybe it's the romantic in me, but after highever then ostagar, and seeing how badly Alistait took it, the game kind of took on the whole "us against the world" feeling.

But they were all slaughtered!  I don't know, it just struck me as the HN got the most closure.  She got support from people who knew her, she got to kill Howe, and she was obviously quite a part of the Ferelden world anyway.  While everyone gets to kill Howe, it's personal for the HN -- especially after what he says to her on top of everything else.  

You also get to kill Bhelen if you side with Harrowmont, but it's more personal for DN. Doesn't really mean anything otherwise. I felt HN had the least amount of closure. While the nobles of Fereldan knew OF her they didn't know her personally. Think of the City elf origin...the people there *really* knew you. They talk about your mother, they talk about you growing up, they can relate to you. When you play as a city elf and go into the alienage, they always see the person. When you play a HN and go just about anywhere, people see your title/name/bloodline.

If a HN dropped dead for whatever reason, there was no one in the game left to mourn her, save for her companions (from a non metagame perspective). Certainly not the nobles of Fereldan. Maybe they would have felt bad, of feigned grief for the sake of being polite, but that's not the same. Any other origin has at least one person that would truely be upset over the warden's death.

Oh and I can hardly agree that having everything and everyone you love be slaughtered and destroyed to be considered appropiate closure. More like a big gaping hole it in. Yup.

Modifié par Thief-of-Hearts, 24 janvier 2010 - 04:35 .

[Monica21]

Possibly a dumb question since I haven't played the sacrifice ending yet, but why wouldn't Fergus be at your funeral?

[ejoslin]

Monica21 wrote...

Possibly a dumb question since I haven't played the sacrifice ending yet, but why wouldn't Fergus be at your funeral?

He is at your funeral.

[ejoslin]

Thief-of-Hearts wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Thief-of-Hearts wrote...

i think they meant on a more personal level. All the other origins get a more personal interaction with their origins except human noble.

may or may not have something to do with everyone being dead, but it could just me.

i agree it would have been nicer to get more of an emotional nod to that origin, but at the same time i also think it's great too, because the lack of something can also speak volumes more.

maybe it's the romantic in me, but after highever then ostagar, and seeing how badly Alistait took it, the game kind of took on the whole "us against the world" feeling.

But they were all slaughtered!  I don't know, it just struck me as the HN got the most closure.  She got support from people who knew her, she got to kill Howe, and she was obviously quite a part of the Ferelden world anyway.  While everyone gets to kill Howe, it's personal for the HN -- especially after what he says to her on top of everything else.  

You also get to kill Bhelen if you side with Harrowmont, but it's more personal for DN. Doesn't really mean anything otherwise. I felt HN had the least amount of closure. While the nobles of Fereldan knew OF her they didn't know her personally. Think of the City elf origin...the people there *really* knew you. They talk about your mother, they talk about you growing up, they can relate to you. When you play as a city elf and go into the alienage, they always see the person. When you play a HN and go just about anywhere, people see your title/name/bloodline.

If a HN dropped dead for whatever reason, there was no one in the game left to mourn her, save for her companions (from a non metagame perspective). Certainly not the nobles of Fereldan. Maybe they would have felt bad, of feigned grief for the sake of being polite, but that's not the same. Any other origin has at least one person that would truely be upset over the warden's death.

Oh and I can hardly agree that having everything and everyone you love be slaughtered and destroyed to be considered appropiate closure. More like a big gaping hole it in. Yup.

Did I say that was closure?  I said that was the reason you're not running into her nearest and dearest -- they're all dead.  She DOES run into a lot of people who know who she is, though.  And Howe has some great dialog for her -- it makes you hate him more, but it also (depending on what responses you choose) can give her even more pride in her family and the Cousland name.  When Howe tells her that she has the same look in her eye as her father, I couldn't help but being proud for her, and you learn just how personal it is for Howe as well.

[Thiefy]

Did I say that was closure?  I said that was the reason you're not running into her nearest and dearest -- they're all dead.  She DOES run into a lot of people who know who she is, though.  And Howe has some great dialog for her -- it makes you hate him more, but it also (depending on what responses you choose) can give her even more pride in her family and the Cousland name.  When Howe tells her that she has the same look in her eye as her father, I couldn't help but being proud for her, and you learn just how personal it is for Howe as well.

Well there was this:

But they were all slaughtered!  I don't know, it just struck me as the HN got the most closure.

Not exactly sure how to interpret this.

You seemed to have missed my point. A lot of other people specifically said that you never run into people from your origin (because they are dead, as both of us pointed out), and because of that, there is a lack fo closure for them.

You pointed out that even so, story wise HN get interaction from the nobles of Fereldan. What I was trying to show is that, that wasn't enough because it wasn't personal. Like I said as a human noble, you are a title, as any other origin, you are a person (to at least one npc anyway). How you get acknowledge is more important that the number of times you do, imo.

Yes, HN gets bits and pieces of her origin shown scattered throughout the game, but most of the other origins have longer acknowledgements, and do so with emotional attachment. Hence why Skadi said there was more of a feeling of being "all alone" as a HN, compared to the other origins. Yes you get to kill Howe, but it was very brief, bitter, and left the player empty, adding more to the 'alone' feeling. After Howe is gone, you really have nothing left tying back to your origin.

[ejoslin]

I understand what you're saying, but that doesn't mean I agree with it. Howe, one of the HN's father's oldest friends, figures prominently. And yes, if your entire family was slaughtered, if you lost your lands and titles, it would be a VERY alone feeling. You also hear how upset the people from Highever are over what happens (some soldiers recently back from Highever mention that if hating someone would kill them, they'd all be dead from the villagers reactions to them).



No one else has quite the same acknowledgement as the HN does of who she is and what she lost.



And to explain since I guess that was a bit disjointed. She's not going to run into people who were close to her in her past because they're all dead. You can see a couple of interesting bodies that were tortured in Fort Drakkon, but you can't interact with them. The HN lost a lot -- she lost everything as a matter of fact. That loss is acknowledged more than anyone else's in the game. You're even able to demand blood rights (though it's brushed off).



Howe is the person from the HN past that she gets to interact with while the game is going on. He tells her she has the same look in her eye that her father did, and it makes him want to kill her all the more. I think the only reason why killing him feels empty is not one of your party members acknowledges it. It would have been nice to be able to say something about it before Fergus.

[Thiefy]

ejoslin wrote...

I understand what you're saying, but that doesn't mean I agree with it.

But you essnetially HAVE agreed with me whether you know it or not.

No one else has quite the same acknowledgement as the HN does of who she is and what she lost.

Yes, but as I, and other people have pointed out, a more personal and emotional acknowledgement would have been VERY welcomed before the epilouge. All the other origins get one save for HN which leads me to....

 She's not going to run into people who were close to her in her past because they're all dead. You can see a couple of interesting bodies that were tortured in Fort Drakkon, but you can't interact with them. The HN lost a lot -- she lost everything as a matter of fact. That loss is acknowledged more than anyone else's in the game. You're even able to demand blood rights (though it's brushed off).

Which is why I was saying the lack of anything there was just as moving as getting personal acknowledgement. Unlike the other origins, since HN really was more "alone", it gave the side of the story more weight imo. Especially given what happens at Ostagar and how Alistair takes it. They could almost be mirror images of each other.

Howe is the person from the HN past that she gets to interact with while the game is going on. He tells her she has the same look in her eye that her father did, and it makes him want to kill her all the more. I think the only reason why killing him feels empty is not one of your party members acknowledges it. It would have been nice to be able to say something about it before Fergus.

I have to disagree with you there, what could my party members say to make me feel better? Revenge is empty in itself - it never brings back what you lost and once you accomplish it, what else does a person have to work for? It's not like city elf where you can go back and comfort your cousin, HN has nothing to go back to. Luckily PC has something else going for her as a GW.

I get what you are saying entirely, that as a HN, there is no other origin that has as much signifigance on the plot, especially given the option to become the ruler. But what other people are saying is that it would have been nice to see some kind of personal, emotional connection to origins that all the origins seemed to have gotten. That's what I was trying to point out to you when I first replied to your quote of Skadi. Whether or not it was necessary is entirely subjective.

[ejoslin]

Thief-of-Hearts wrote...

But you essnetially HAVE agreed with me whether you know it or not.

All I as disagreeing with was whether the HN got closure or not.  I understand what people are saying -- every other origin has something.  I just happen to think that the HN ALSO has that and more.  Whether it's Howe and the final conversation you have with him, whether it's talking to others she knows and getting offers of help her get her Terynir back, whether it's acknowledgement that she can rule the country . . . I think she has the most satisfactory acknowledgment.  I think the Dalish actually has the least, despite whom she sees in the camp.  I think the City Elf may have the richest, and the Dwarves of either origin have the worst implemented when they go home.

Ah well, that's one thing I think is great -- how differently people can see and interpret the same situations.

Modifié par ejoslin, 24 janvier 2010 - 07:36 .

[Thiefy]

ejoslin wrote...

Thief-of-Hearts wrote...

But you essnetially HAVE agreed with me whether you know it or not.

All I as disagreeing with was whether the HN got closure or not.  I understand what people are saying -- every other origin has something.  I just happen to think that the HN ALSO has that and more.  Whether it's Howe and the final conversation you have with him, whether it's talking to others she knows and getting offers of help her get her Terynir back, whether it's acknowledgement that she can rule the country . . . I think she has the most satisfactory acknowledgment.  I think the Dalish actually has the least, despite whom she sees in the camp.  I think the City Elf may have the richest, and the Dwarves of either origin have the worst implemented when they go home.

Ah well, that's one thing I think is great -- how differently people can see and interpret the same situations.

Eh, i guess its just a case of what you call an apple, i call an organge. It's nice that the other nobles are willing to help me, after a few favors and all, but nothing comes of it. I guess hearing things isn't as good as seeing or (virtually) touching. HN was my favorite, and I don't think they really got closure until the epilouge, which I think is fine. I cannot express the amount of sheer JOY I felt when I saw Fergus at the funeral/coronation. Romance or not, I don't think any other origin got that kind of 'happy ending' like HN did.

Modifié par Thief-of-Hearts, 24 janvier 2010 - 07:56 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

You get ONE short conversation with Howe. And you really can't kill him in a satisfying way.
So there's room for improvement.

Having said that, I did look at the Landsmeet dialogue..Oh boy...It's...HUUUUGE.
Changing it is gonna be a b**** but it will be worth it when I trick Loghain into putting a foot in his mouth regarding Ostagar, Fergus walks in and supports me, and I exile Loghain! MWHAHAHAHA!!!!


*MENTAL NOTE: Add option to stab Howes corpse repeateldy...and to kill him in a slow and gruesome way beforehand.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 24 janvier 2010 - 08:25 .

[Fangirl17]

I was so suprised and happy to see Fergus.I wasnt expecting it at all.I thought he was dead for sure.It brought tears to my eyes to see that my big brother and only family left was alive.



Haha,that would have been so epic if he busted in during the Landsmeet.

[Thor Rand Al]

M-Taylor wrote...
I disagree, for the most part. Atleast, female wardens in a romance with Alistair to me feel cheated.
His speech basically goes through the motions of a 12 year old boy, saying he thought they were going to be together forever, to a seeminglessly effortless and unemotional transiction to a 'Oh well. Thanks for dying for me. Toodles, have fun in the afterlife.'
However, the writing for Leliana was indeed epic. I was very moved by her reactions to my male wardens death.
Edit: I didn't mean it to sound like a dig to the writers, I thought the whole game was very well written, but I was mildly disappointed with my ending with Alistair. We basically spent an entire year travelling together, life threatning situations on a daily basis, basically everything a relationship -could- go through, for him not to care very much? Maybe it was because I made him King. It might of been a better ending if I put Anora on the throne

Try this if you play again; romance him, don't harden him, don't make him King, don't let Loghain live n sacrifice yourself... I did this human noble n the ending was so well it was interesting as far as what Alistair does after, I felt so bad for him.  I'm really interested in Awakenings if I load this 1 what might of become of Alistair or if it will even mention that.

[Sialater]

odiedragon wrote...

if you're not the last of your house, sacrificing yourself may make more sense.  So might marrying Alistair/CerseiAnora.

Heh, I see what you did there.

[ejoslin]

Thor Rand Al wrote...

Try this if you play again; romance him, don't harden him, don't make him King, don't let Loghain live n sacrifice yourself... I did this human noble n the ending was so well it was interesting as far as what Alistair does after, I felt so bad for him.  I'm really interested in Awakenings if I load this 1 what might of become of Alistair or if it will even mention that.

He turns out the same if you harden him.

Modifié par ejoslin, 24 janvier 2010 - 10:49 .

[Korva]

Eudaemonium wrote...

Personally, I would have liked a bit more Origin-specific features in the main game, possibly in the form of quests, etc, other than simply altered dialogue at various points. As it is the only ones who really *add* stuff beyond the Origins are Dalish Elf (an encounter) and Dwarf Noble (a quest - and even then, only if you're male).

Full agreement. The origins were such a hyped feature but in retrospect I really have to say they were overhyped. They change nothing but some dialog fluff. They do not provide anything special or unique. That is a real disappointment for me and one big reason -- aside from the lack of consequences for one's actions and conduct -- for why I have lost interest in the game despite my pre-release resolution to play it repeatedly.

Xandurpein wrote...

I never finished a game with a
female/female Leliana relationship, but with my male,  the camera
zoomed in on Leliana's face and you could see the tears.

No sign of that in my game. And I suppose the "together forever" line isn't supposed to happen if you weren't with Alistair? Bah.I guess my game for some unfathomable reason thought my PC was with him during the eulogy, though he was firmly on the friendship path and Leliana at 100% Love which the game recognized otherwise.