30 réponses à ce sujet

[Obadiah]

I posted this in another thread and no one seemed to care, so I'll post this separately for feedback.

It doesn't matter if the Catalyst's logic is right about Synthetics inevitably destroying all Organics. It doesn't matter if the Catalyst is wrong, or crazy, or whatever. What matters is that someone created an AI, and it decided to implement the Reaper cycle.

The implication then is that if Organics continue creating AI, someone will inevitably create an AI for a purpose, it will run amok, and for whatever reason do something catastrophic, perhaps even on a galactic scale. The Catalyst is an example of this at least happening once.

In that context, the threat is somewhat more existential, unquantifiable, and practically unsolvable. It is similar to saying that if humans continue breeding, we'll eventually raise a leader that will destroy us.

Is the issue:
1) The existence of AI?
2) The accumulation of so much unchecked power by one being, the Catalyst?
3) Are (1) and (2) connected?

Thoughts?

[Edit]
This thread is not about Singularity, although this topic would cover an instance of one. It is about the threat of accumulation of power, and its use by Organics and/or Synthetics. In addition, what threat do you see from the existence of the Catalyst, aside from just the exisiting Reaper War?

Modifié par Obadiah, 17 novembre 2013 - 10:24 .

[His Name was HYR!!]

 Ole H made a similar thread some time back: http://social.biowar.../index/16808351


Okay, 'done tooting my horn. Carry on...

[SwobyJ]

Well you said it - the threat is existential. Consider the scope of each of the games and regardless of any other story views, you might see where the series may head towards, and just how many crazy-ass stories can be told about the Mass Effect universe.

~~~

I see a bigger threat from the existence of Harbinger than the Intelligence. So yeah, I Destroy . But as far as I can tell so far, the 'Catalyst'/Intelligence is really just doing the job it was made for, and even its creators don't speak out against that part. Its just doing it very, cosmic-scale badly. So blame the Leviathans, that Shepard seemingly had enough will to drag into the war to help against their mess-up.

And then you have to consider whether it would have been a good thing if the Intelligence went outright rogue. Would it have been better, or worse? If it gained freedom from its innate restrictions (before Crucible interfacing), might it have just killed every organic that pops up, and not even try to preserve them?
And THEN you have to consider if the situation in the Leviathans' time was bearable or not, compared to Reaping Cycles. Might it have been worse? Were synthetics that bad? Or were Leviathans just so domineering. Hell, they might just like to eat organics by the planetload, and the synthetics are ruining their OWN crop.

Lots of stories to tell, and probably even more new and old (in timeline) characters to meet.

~~~

I lean towards the problem being #2, unchecked power.

However, we'll probably be given even more evidence (than now) towards #1 being a huge problem itself. It is one thing to have an organic with tools to kill others - its another to have a synthetic with wider access to tech and maybe huge mass produced numbers to overwhelm everyone. Imagine if the geth actually calculated that it would be better to kill all organics 0_0. Krogan x100 in devastation.

Really, for all we know, the Leviathans may have had their own cycles where synthetics kept rising up and slaughtering organics before their 'time' for 'tribute', forcing Leviathan reappearances and smackdowns onto the synthetics. In fact, I'd enjoy a game that, to some degree, justifies the Reaper Cycles, just to see the moral flip everyone would experience . Down with Leviathans! Up with Reapers! Wait, what?

Modifié par SwobyJ, 17 novembre 2013 - 03:01 .

[SwobyJ]

StreetMagic wrote...

I don't care about the threat of AI. I WANT to fight more of them in the future. Makes things fun.

What I don't want is to fight AI who've had a trillion year head start on everyone, are a mile long, can destroy everything in the history of fiction - whether it's Superman, or the Silver Surfer or Chuck Norris' sweaty balls. The Reapers are ultimately unstoppable. The stupidest ****ing villains ever conceived, besides Satan himself.

Other AIs could pop up, sure. Who cares. It isn't anything compared to that. The only choice to me is to end this particular conflict, and worry about the future when it happens.

That's a perfectly valid (at least to Mass Effect) route to take.

ME1 put you in the role of Spectres (Blue/Red), and the story was more friendly to being happy with that role. You were in a world of order (Citadel) or chaos (rest of the areas), and your whole aim is to destroy robots. Simples. Relatively.

ME2 then put you in the role of Cerberus (Blue/Control), and the story was a little more friendly to being a light (Paragon), shining in a world of chaos (Terminus Systems, Red/Chaos). You destroy robots, no matter what, but can start to understand them if you wish.

ME3 put you back, and fully this time, in the role of Alliance (Red.. but turned blue for someee reason), and the story is a little more friendly to finishing the fight against the Reapers with their death (Renegade), in the world of order (Council Space under attack). Yet, while you destroy robots, at the end, can decide not to, outright.

I would bet virtual bucks that ME4 gets deeper into the concept of transcended life, and the option to outright embrace being non-organic (*cue the calls of transhumanist globalist propaganda). But you'll STILL have the option to reject it and kill robots and AI. Boom boom! The minute they remove that option, I will stop considering this franchise to be Mass Effect.



*All those 'role' things are based on what seems to be the 'core narrative'. Bioware prides itself on freedom of the illusion of choice (hehe), so all they're doing with each game is expanding what morality we can roleplay ourselves with. Since Mass Effect has AI since the start of the first game, I'd expect every future game to continue to expand an understanding of them, along with a (slower) growing understanding of organic/human-intelligent life and evolution.
And you'll ALWAYS (imo) have the option to completely reject those dangerous AI, and blow them away. I just think they'll be trying to make players more guilty for it, in more situations, as the games progress

Modifié par SwobyJ, 17 novembre 2013 - 04:30 .

[MissOuJ]

StreetMagic wrote...

Sometimes I kind of wish they actually don't continue anything post-Shepard. That this would truly be "speculations for everyone". Walters gets a lot flak for that line, but what he was trying to avoid was this idea of inevitability. Only the Catalyst makes claims of inevitability. Not Bioware per se. Only one of their characters.

A "Crucible" is meant to signify a crossroads of sorts.. stage where a person or collective group needs to go through a test, in which the results set the course on how they will evolve into the future. And the only answer is "speculations for everyone". Do you set organics towards a mentality of control, synthesis, or destroy? Pick your poison. There's nothing else to say. It's a complete unknown.

Destroy has some things to worry about when it comes to future AI, but at the same time, by making this choice, you're leading organics in a way that will make them evolve past the dependency on AI as well. It isn't just an act of destruction, but creation as well. The Catalyst insists that organics can't evolve any more than they have, without the help of synthetics. Destroy is a choice that calls b.s. on that. That there's more to evolution than just technological advances. In the Mass Effect world, there's also physical, mental, and biotic advancements. These things have a chance of ascending if you choose Destroy. It's never going to happen though as long as Reapers or the Catalyst exist in some form (Control or Synthesis). Organics need (lots of) time to evolve, without that interference.

This is a really fantastic post and I agree with you 100% on your points about the Catalyst. Although I have to admit I am really looking forwart to the post-Shepard Mass Effect universe as well -- mostly because I'm just crazy curious what BW are gonna do next and where that universe is headed.

[SwobyJ]

Yep. All endings are legit in at least some ways.

Even just humor me here - The Shepard trilogy could be generally Destroy tinged (but always just an option), but future games or series could attempt other tones. Maybe something a little more Control-ish. Or Synthesis-ish. Or completely new directions years from now.

The Hyperion Cantos comes to mind.

Modifié par SwobyJ, 17 novembre 2013 - 10:14 .

[Linkenski]

SwobyJ wrote...

I see a bigger threat from the existence of Harbinger than the Intelligence. So yeah, I Destroy . But as far as I can tell so far, the 'Catalyst'/Intelligence is really just doing the job it was made for, and even its creators don't speak out against that part. Its just doing it very, cosmic-scale badly. So blame the Leviathans, that Shepard seemingly had enough will to drag into the war to help against their mess-up.

Don't forget that the Catalyst is the "collective intelligence of all Reapers" so The Catalyst IS Harbinger. When Harbinger speaks it should essentially still be The Catalyst's words.

The Catalyst IS the problem.

Correct me if I'm wrong, because I can't remember if he is just the Harddrive for all reaper brains or if he is the brain for reaper thought?

But good topic TC. This was always how I saw it myself since EC, but I have never really been good at putting it into words.

But I guess, my question would be; what is the Catalyst without his Reapers to this cycle of life? If there was a conventional victory where the Reapers are destroyed, where the Catalyst still existed, what thread would he pose? If organics or synthetics discovered his existence, would they be swayed to let him oversee relations of organics/synthetics once more?

To me he seems more like a dated construct that is no longer of use to any civilization of the current cycle after the Reaper treat is over (in the what-if scenario that they could be beat conventionally).

Modifié par Linkenski, 17 novembre 2013 - 12:37 .

[Linkenski]

I never looked at it that way (that Shepard basically says the same as Sovereign) but I always figured that the writers turned what was in the ending around with the EC into the Catalyst intentionally having bad logic and it was further proved by Leviathan DLC, and overall the ending still plays into the "everyone is free to choose their own fate" thing, in the sense that The Catalyst has taken that away from everyone for billions of years and in a way it's even examplified by the three choices that doesn't satisfy your want as a player, or the fact that all choices lets Shepard decide the fate of some, or all races (control, override or genocide)

But my problem is still how the choices stand pretty counter to most of the core themes.

Modifié par Linkenski, 17 novembre 2013 - 12:57 .

[Obadiah]

MissOuJ wrote...

StreetMagic wrote...

Sometimes I kind of wish they actually don't continue anything post-Shepard. That this would truly be "speculations for everyone". Walters gets a lot flak for that line, but what he was trying to avoid was this idea of inevitability. Only the Catalyst makes claims of inevitability. Not Bioware per se. Only one of their characters.

A "Crucible" is meant to signify a crossroads of sorts.. stage where a person or collective group needs to go through a test, in which the results set the course on how they will evolve into the future. And the only answer is "speculations for everyone". Do you set organics towards a mentality of control, synthesis, or destroy? Pick your poison. There's nothing else to say. It's a complete unknown.

Destroy has some things to worry about when it comes to future AI, but at the same time, by making this choice, you're leading organics in a way that will make them evolve past the dependency on AI as well. It isn't just an act of destruction, but creation as well. The Catalyst insists that organics can't evolve any more than they have, without the help of synthetics. Destroy is a choice that calls b.s. on that. That there's more to evolution than just technological advances. In the Mass Effect world, there's also physical, mental, and biotic advancements. These things have a chance of ascending if you choose Destroy. It's never going to happen though as long as Reapers or the Catalyst exist in some form (Control or Synthesis). Organics need (lots of) time to evolve, without that interference.

This is a really fantastic post and I agree with you 100% on your points about the Catalyst. Although I have to admit I am really looking forwart to the post-Shepard Mass Effect universe as well -- mostly because I'm just crazy curious what BW are gonna do next and where that universe is headed.

Hmmm.... Destroy is the Creators hitting the off switch. That's deep, but ****ed up.

[Obadiah]

Linkenski wrote...
...
But my problem is still how the choices stand pretty counter to most of the core themes.

I don't know if that is really true. Certainly, there are core moral themes or ideals reinforced by Shepard making choices, but there is also a theme of people in power making difficult decisions, that some, including Shepard, don't really agree with or enjoy, but must accept.

That's kind of the climax decision right there.

SwobyJ wrote...
...
I lean towards the problem being #2, unchecked power.

However, we'll probably be given even more evidence (than now) towards #1 being a huge problem itself. It is one thing to have an organic with tools to kill others - its another to have a synthetic with wider access to tech and maybe huge mass produced numbers to overwhelm everyone. Imagine if the geth actually calculated that it would be better to kill all organics 0_0. Krogan x100 in devastation.
...

I believe I mostly agree.

I'd like to think that the #2 is real problem. But #1 may be a factor, but not with AI per se, more the existential threat of another party whose rationalizations that we are just capable of understanding, which can lead to an irrational overblown response (sort of like what the Catalyst did, or what Shepard may do with Destroy).

Modifié par Obadiah, 17 novembre 2013 - 05:55 .

[Linkenski]

StreetMagic wrote...

On that note though, the main thing they screw you with is EDI. They try to signal that she does understand organics in some capacity. The Catalyst may not understand, but apparently, she's different. Some people might not want to pick Destroy in the hopes that she keeps learning.

It's still stupid. Taking a gamble in reshaping the whole galaxy and commiting suicide, on the offchance that one robot kind of finally be a "real girl".

I always figured EDI was a better AI after the EC, though, because she's unshackled and apprently the Catalyst is not.

[SwobyJ]

Linkenski wrote...

SwobyJ wrote...

I see a bigger threat from the existence of Harbinger than the Intelligence. So yeah, I Destroy . But as far as I can tell so far, the 'Catalyst'/Intelligence is really just doing the job it was made for, and even its creators don't speak out against that part. Its just doing it very, cosmic-scale badly. So blame the Leviathans, that Shepard seemingly had enough will to drag into the war to help against their mess-up.

Don't forget that the Catalyst is the "collective intelligence of all Reapers" so The Catalyst IS Harbinger. When Harbinger speaks it should essentially still be The Catalyst's words.

The Catalyst IS the problem.

Correct me if I'm wrong, because I can't remember if he is just the Harddrive for all reaper brains or if he is the brain for reaper thought?

But good topic TC. This was always how I saw it myself since EC, but I have never really been good at putting it into words.

But I guess, my question would be; what is the Catalyst without his Reapers to this cycle of life? If there was a conventional victory where the Reapers are destroyed, where the Catalyst still existed, what thread would he pose? If organics or synthetics discovered his existence, would they be swayed to let him oversee relations of organics/synthetics once more?

To me he seems more like a dated construct that is no longer of use to any civilization of the current cycle after the Reaper treat is over (in the what-if scenario that they could be beat conventionally).

Collective intelligence just means it is a semi-hive mind, where the Intelligence takes into consideration of all 'opinions' from the Reapers before decising. Since all the Reapers believe in the Cycle, that's what the Intelligence continues to go along with. This is also in line with Hyperion, where AIs are pretty blunt with each other and make decisions based on some form of consensus. All this means is that the Intelligence listened to Harbinger before, but since you wrecked Harbinger's plans in ME2, it decided to finally reach out to Shepard instead, and got Harbinger to mostly back out of the way.
/someheadcanonorassumptions

He's not the hard drive for all Reaper thought, just embodies it. It's still an Intelligence in itself. After all is done, and the Crucible completed, it seemingly decides to listen to Shepard, or fascilitate the next decisions made.

Somewhat agreed with your last bit. The Catalyst either needs to go away, or change into something else.

[SwobyJ]

StreetMagic wrote...

Linkenski wrote...

If there was a conventional victory where the Reapers are destroyed, where the Catalyst still existed, what thread would he pose?

The threat he poses is what Shepard says.. "You'll never understand us." Pretty much the same thing Sovereign tells you in ME1. Shepard and the Catalyst are each other's "singularity", in a way.

Apparently the Catalyst can finally understand if you choose Synthesis, but whatever. F*ck him.

Nazara translates to 'the one who watches'.

And yeah, if the Intelligence was somehow Sovereign (just follow me here), then eff him. He was a jerk!!

[SwobyJ]

StreetMagic wrote...

On that note though, the main thing they screw you with is EDI. They try to signal that she does understand organics in some capacity. The Catalyst may not understand, but apparently, she's different. Some people might not want to pick Destroy in the hopes that she keeps learning.

It's still stupid. Taking a gamble in reshaping the whole galaxy and commiting suicide, on the offchance that one robot kind of finally be a "real girl".

It isn't just EDI lol. But I see your point. But it's actually.

-ME2 friendlines (typically Paragon) towards AI
-ME2-ME3 friendliness to overwriting AI thought processes, constraining or changing organic societies
-ME3 EDI
-ME3 Genophage Cure
-ME3 Rannoch Peace with 'evolution' of Geth, even installing into Quarians

These are all options or experiences one may have to lead them to Synthesis

Obviously the more core choice is Destroy. Shep is a Destroyer. However, they're going to get many players (well, they DID, with friends of mine irl) to be tempted by Control and pick it, and be fascinated by Synthesis and pick it.

[SwobyJ]

Linkenski wrote...

StreetMagic wrote...

On that note though, the main thing they screw you with is EDI. They try to signal that she does understand organics in some capacity. The Catalyst may not understand, but apparently, she's different. Some people might not want to pick Destroy in the hopes that she keeps learning.

It's still stupid. Taking a gamble in reshaping the whole galaxy and commiting suicide, on the offchance that one robot kind of finally be a "real girl".

I always figured EDI was a better AI after the EC, though, because she's unshackled and apprently the Catalyst is not.

Yeah the deal with shackling is that it depends on the controller/organic's status, motivations, talent, understanding. Their free will creates the state of the AI.

Unshackled is potentially even more dangerous, but it also is not dependant on the creator/former-controller's state to be a better or worse being. EDI chose to be affected by Shepard, and could have very well decided it wasn't in her best interest to follow him. The Intelligence? Seemed to have no choice but to follow Leviathan directives for billions of years, and the Leviathans themselves even seem to approve of the Cycle in itself (just not the part that included their own fate). Yikes.

[Linkenski]

The Leviathan's must have been desperate with their issue, and IMO it feels like the Catalyst is basically programmed to have the mindset of the leviathans "Remove the threat of AI by all means" and it's just stuck in a loop after all the years until the cycle of Humanity, when Shepard stops it. The Catalyst is essentially a robot as I understand it. It does not have any sort of real connection to other beings on an emotional level. It has a decent vocabulary but it doesn't have emotions.

[ImaginaryMatter]

I would say number two, I don't think the problem is AI but a deranged individual getting their tiny, little holographic hands, so to speak, on too much power.

[SwobyJ]

Linkenski wrote...

The Leviathan's must have been desperate with their issue, and IMO it feels like the Catalyst is basically programmed to have the mindset of the leviathans "Remove the threat of AI by all means" and it's just stuck in a loop after all the years until the cycle of Humanity, when Shepard stops it. The Catalyst is essentially a robot as I understand it. It does not have any sort of real connection to other beings on an emotional level. It has a decent vocabulary but it doesn't have emotions.

I view the Intelligence as the ghost of Leviathan will, and Harbinger as the walking zombie of them. More or less.

[Reorte]

Linkenski wrote...

The Leviathan's must have been desperate with their issue, and IMO it feels like the Catalyst is basically programmed to have the mindset of the leviathans "Remove the threat of AI by all means" and it's just stuck in a loop after all the years until the cycle of Humanity, when Shepard stops it. The Catalyst is essentially a robot as I understand it. It does not have any sort of real connection to other beings on an emotional level. It has a decent vocabulary but it doesn't have emotions.

It doesn't seem to have much in the way of intelligence either, which is why it gives me the impression of being more like a VI than a fully-developed AI (it puts the Reapers in the awkward position of being somehow controlled by something rather less inteliigent than they are).

The threat of AI isn't a certainty, it's the fear of the unknown and different (or only slightly known). The Leviathans seemed to fear AI not because they would doom everyone but because they threatened their position of dominance; presumably they wanted one that did their bidding but subcontracted it out to Sirius Cybernetics.

[SwobyJ]

Reorte wrote...

Linkenski wrote...

The Leviathan's must have been desperate with their issue, and IMO it feels like the Catalyst is basically programmed to have the mindset of the leviathans "Remove the threat of AI by all means" and it's just stuck in a loop after all the years until the cycle of Humanity, when Shepard stops it. The Catalyst is essentially a robot as I understand it. It does not have any sort of real connection to other beings on an emotional level. It has a decent vocabulary but it doesn't have emotions.

It doesn't seem to have much in the way of intelligence either, which is why it gives me the impression of being more like a VI than a fully-developed AI (it puts the Reapers in the awkward position of being somehow controlled by something rather less inteliigent than they are).

The threat of AI isn't a certainty, it's the fear of the unknown and different (or only slightly known). The Leviathans seemed to fear AI not because they would doom everyone but because they threatened their position of dominance; presumably they wanted one that did their bidding but subcontracted it out to Sirius Cybernetics.

Well true.

It IS only called the 'Intelligence' afer all.

And might explain the... weird character of Harbinger.

Personally though, I consider it an AI that's as shackled as it can be for something empowered to fulfill such a mandate. VI-like. AI-like. Basically ... Intelligence. lol.

[ImaginaryMatter]

Reorte wrote...

It doesn't seem to have much in the way of intelligence either, which is why it gives me the impression of being more like a VI than a fully-developed AI (it puts the Reapers in the awkward position of being somehow controlled by something rather less inteliigent than they are).

Maybe the Catalyst is actually Avina in disguise.