58 réponses à ce sujet

[DeinonSlayer]

Starjar is the problem he was designed to prevent. We of course can't call him out on it or confront him with his own illogic, and doing so just wastes time banging your head against a wall while good soldiers are dying in droves, so I mosey on to the next best thing.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 17 novembre 2013 - 09:12 .

[SwobyJ]

And the plan post-destroy? Just don't make any more synthetics.

Probably completely impossible in the Mass Effect universe. All we can do is hope that things were dealt with well enough (if picking Destroy, literal view) that people now know how to properly deal with AI
(kill em all Javik style and without Reapers stopping that process, or design them entirely as tools but with greater knowledge of how they work and kill em instantly otherwise, or working with them an immediately treat them as life worth respecting from the start - all are ways that would work differently than before, without the Reapers doing their Cycles).

Modifié par SwobyJ, 17 novembre 2013 - 09:15 .

[SwobyJ]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Starjar is the problem he was designed to prevent. We of course can't call him out on it or confront him with his own illogic, and doing so just wastes time banging your head against a wall while good soldiers are dying in droves, so I mosey on to the next best thing.

Depends on how bad things were with the Leviathans. 'Care for' and 'tribute does not flow from a dead race' can mean a lot of things, considering that the Leviathans are organic, consider themselves apex (like Harbinger does), and have a penchant for completely inserting themselves into peoples' minds ("Your mind belongs to me." --> "YOUR MIND WILL BE MINE.")

The Leviathan system could have been even worse. Organic civilizations maybe were not outright exterminated (ahem, 'preserved in a new form'), but instead the Leviathans may have outright messed with everyone on a more constant and chaotic basis, up to devouring whole planets of people. We just dont know. Maybe later. *shrug*
It might be seen as a small blessing that Reapers 'afforded' us 50,000ish years of 'peace' before Reaping, whereas the Leviathans may have kept everyone down constantly, leading to whatever synthetics being made to be already cursed creations. No one able to learn and grow at *all*, because Leviathans step in.

All we see is what they did to that mining facility. I see that even worse than Indoctrination, when used that way. At least with indoc, you eventually freak out and die. Leviathans could keep you mind-enthralled for decades until natural death.

Just saying that the core problem is probably cyclical itself, and we got to experience one part of it with the trilogy.

Organic evolution (Leviathans) --> Organic domination (enthrallment) --> Synthetic evolution (lessers organics making synthetics to overcome Leviathans? A guess here) --> Synthetic solution (Leviathans making Intelligence to stop this, it backfiring on them) --> Attempt at synthesis (Harbinger, a flawed creation that perpetuates the Cycles and fails in its experiments to get both 'sides' working together)

So I guess we just have to hope that an organic species doesn't evolve far enough again to control the galaxy? Shoot... well, maybe we're good. Maybe. Or maybe a new threat will emerge with this Cycle's species having surpassed (or on the road to surpassing) its 'creators'.

Modifié par SwobyJ, 17 novembre 2013 - 09:27 .

[MassivelyEffective0730]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Starjar is the problem he was designed to prevent. We of course can't call him out on it or confront him with his own illogic, and doing so just wastes time banging your head against a wall while good soldiers are dying in droves, so I mosey on to the next best thing.

Here's my post from a link of mine where I look at how the Catalyst can't keep his definition of Synthetic straight and how it undermines the so-called necessity of synthesis (and how the Catalyst's version of it is more or less an insult to anyone who has a grasp on scientific concepts and biology).

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Since I can't easily link it too you, I'll post the whole context of the topic here. It's from the Cerberus Vindication Thread.

FROM THE CERBERUS VINDICATION THREAD - EXPLANATION FOR MY DISLIKE OF SYNTHESIS, CONTROL, AND THE ENDING:

I don't support Synthesis or Control for a variety of reasons, namely:

-Because it is narratively and thematically inconsistent with the rest of the trilogy (along with the entire overarching ending)

-Because it scientifically, biologically, and logically doesn't make sense. 

-Going along with the Reapers, I'm not about to believe this entity I just met on faith about what the Reapers really are when its own logic and perfect solutions don't make any sense based on what I believe is a programming and/or hardware error, and when every single past experience with the Reapers showed me the opposite of what this little dude is telling me.

-That he might be manipulating me based on the knowledge that that is what they do and have always done (indoctrination or no).

-The very history that this guy is contradicting because his very own creations (that he controls as you say) have actually instigated the very conflict he is supposedly trying to prevent.

-How he fails to consecutively define the term 'synthetic'.

-Because the whole premise on why this entire problem exists is flawed due to the arrogant belief of a bunch of giant crabs (that look really tasty) are destined to rule the universe and that they cannot be worshipped if the people they enthrall keep building machines that kill them because the giant crabs have enslaved the people that worship them make them perform difficult tasks that require the assistance of intelligent machines to assist with said tasks.

It's not something I just take on faith. I'm not wired that way to accept claims like that, especially when so much evidence contradicts it.

XILIZHRA'S RESPONSE:

This'd be reasonable, except that all of this also makes Destroy suspect; if the Catalyst is lying to you and trying to harm you in some manner, it probably has all of the options rigged to kill/indoctrinate you. At that point, it's shooting in the dark.

As for the rest, that's just down to differences of opinion, either between you and the Catalyst or between you and the creators. I personally don't consider them to conflict with the overarching narrative. I do consider Renegade Shepard's actions and supporting Cerberus to do so, when you don't. Neither of us has an advantage of objective truth here.

MY RESPONSE AND MY REASONING FOR DESTROY IN THIS CASE HOW THE CATALYST FAILS TO DEFINE THE TERM 'SYNTHETIC':

Firstly, I don't think the Catalyst is capable of withholding information. That's why it mentions destroy. But I do think it is capable of using deceit. I do think it is overtly trying to portray destroy in a negative light to entice Shepard to choose a solution more on its own preference. An example of this is when it uses multiple definitions for the term 'synthetic'. 

First, it implies that all synthetic creations, from the Geth, EDI, to things like synthetic flesh, organs, VI's, etc, will be affected. It implies this when it says "even you are partly synthetic"

Going by the definition that I used of synthetic flesh and organs, this is true. I am partly synthetic.

Going by the definition of synthetic as in synthetic sapient intelligence, or synthetic life, this is not true. I am not synthetic in this manner. There is no AI in me at all. I am a human being, with a few synthetic organs, no, there is no part of me that would qualify as synthetic sapient life. I am not 'partly synthetic' in that regard.

Then when it defines synthesis and who will be affected, it mentions that synthetics will be merged with organics... which we already can do. I'm an example. I'm standing right in front of the Catalyst.

Yet the Catalyst uses the definition of synthetic as in synthetic sapient intelligence. It makes it clear that it is talking about things like EDI and the Geth. 

And it says how necessary and vital they, so much so that I supposedly can't imagine my life without them.

Except I can. EDI is one synthetic. One. And she's only a year or two old. The Geth meanwhile have existed for over 300 years.... the majority of which they have been isolated from the rest of the galaxy. In fact, it was only just recently that I talked them into joining the war effort. Also, the council expressly forbids the creation of AI's and imposes very harsh penalties for doing so. These laws are effective enough that synthetic sapient intelligence is quite rare and not an influencing factor at all in everyday life. So why does the Catalyst believe that they are now essential to everyday life?

But the point is, yes I can envision my life without synthetic intelligence. I've literally been doing it for almost all of my life. As has most of the galaxy for centuries. 

This assertion is false.... unless my prosthetic gall bladder is going to go on a crusade against my pancreas.

It's this little... contradiction that makes me think he's trying to downplay destroy. He doesn't want me to pick it. He's hoping he can convince or manipulate me into following the path he desires. He may not be able to hide the fact that destroy exists, but he can try to deceive me on the nature of it, and him.

As for the rest, I guess I'll agree to that, if for no other reason than I'm rather weary from arguing now, and really don't want to bring in an ending debate

Modifié par MassivelyEffective0730, 17 novembre 2013 - 09:33 .

[SwobyJ]

If you don't trust the Catalyst, do what I did and shoot the tube.

The problem I have isn't with the Catalyst/Intelligence concept itself. Really, I'm cool with it, when all DLC is said and done. Whatever.

It's that it is placed at the end of Shepard's trilogy, and we're left hanging.

On a consumer POV, that's insulting. The writer in me is, of course, fascinated with what Bioware might be intending for the franchise, but as a buyer of the game, the last thing I wanted was to face a Ghost Boy Reaper God. That's not finality. It is mystery. Give me mystery in ME2, not the ME3 that was sold as the 'end of a trilogy'. Come on.

[Barquiel]

Gervaise wrote...

I never thought of it as sexual. I got the friendship part. What I was pondering on was the white light as opposed to anything else. After all, with previous joinings we got a series of violent images as she brought Shepard's sub-conscious memories from the beacon out into the open. So it was a nice change to be given a sense of peace but white light is so strongly evocative of heaven/pathway to the afterlife, that at the time it reinforced my sense of foreboding that Shepard was going to die, particularly following as it did on my conversation with Garrus about meeting him in the afterlife. Then later, when it transpired that Shepard was being asked to make a sacrifice that involved jumping into a white light, I recalled those moments with Liara.

Clearly other people didn't see as much significance in the vision as I did.

Well, renegade Shepard gets a red light during the gift scene. If there were actual memories, it would be nice (it's still one of my favorite scenes in the triology)...but I think it would have been hard to pull off flashback scenes without creating new enviroments and character models...and there are also a lot of variables (a romanced Liara should have different memories than a Liara who was recruited last in ME1 for example). I am not sure if there is a deeper meaning.

[DeinonSlayer]

Barquiel wrote...

Gervaise wrote...

I never thought of it as sexual. I got the friendship part. What I was pondering on was the white light as opposed to anything else. After all, with previous joinings we got a series of violent images as she brought Shepard's sub-conscious memories from the beacon out into the open. So it was a nice change to be given a sense of peace but white light is so strongly evocative of heaven/pathway to the afterlife, that at the time it reinforced my sense of foreboding that Shepard was going to die, particularly following as it did on my conversation with Garrus about meeting him in the afterlife. Then later, when it transpired that Shepard was being asked to make a sacrifice that involved jumping into a white light, I recalled those moments with Liara.

Clearly other people didn't see as much significance in the vision as I did.

Well, renegade Shepard gets a red light during the gift scene. If there were actual memories, it would be nice (it's still one of my favorite scenes in the triology)...but I think it would have been hard to pull off flashback scenes without creating new enviroments and character models...and there are also a lot of variables (a romanced Liara should have different memories than a Liara who was recruited last in ME1 for example). I am not sure if there is a deeper meaning.

It wouldn't have been worth the investment of time and resources. Heck, if they're pressed for time (EA) to the point where they're lifting wallpapers off the internet and scribbling on something from GettyImages in place of giving Tali a proper face, I'd be a little miffed that they threw that much more into Liara content.



First Google Images hit for "Earth orbit wallpaper," without quotes:

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 17 novembre 2013 - 10:02 .

[oQUETZALCOATLo]

 No it was just a way to show that Liara cared about you. And your light wasn't white, it was blue. Mine was red. It's just Liara saying goodbye and a reflection on how paragon or renegade you were through the series.

[KR96]

My god, there's some hatred for Liara here on BSN. Really, what's the whole issue? If you don't like her, don't talk to her at all, or refuse or whatever else makes you happy. But for christ sake stop taking every thread that even hints at Liara's role in ME3 as an opportunity to start b*tching about her.

Modifié par killerrabbit1996, 17 novembre 2013 - 10:12 .

[dreamgazer]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Heck, if they're pressed for time (EA) to the point where they're lifting wallpapers off the internet and scribbling on something from GettyImages in place of giving Tali a proper face, I'd be a little miffed that they threw that much more into Liara content.



First Google Images hit for "Earth orbit wallpaper," without quotes:

Is that better or worse than lifting a stock image of Mars and trying to pull it off as another planet?

[DeinonSlayer]

dreamgazer wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Heck, if they're pressed for time (EA) to the point where they're lifting wallpapers off the internet and scribbling on something from GettyImages in place of giving Tali a proper face, I'd be a little miffed that they threw that much more into Liara content.

*snip*

First Google Images hit for "Earth orbit wallpaper," without quotes:

*snip*

Is that better or worse than lifting a stock image of Mars and trying to pull it off as another planet?

To be fair, if you look in the sky above Camp in DA:O, you see that the moon is a bleached-out image of Mars focusing on the Tharsis Montes.

Sampling is to be expected. It saves time, which equates to money. It's when it's used in prominent places that it becomes a problem; makes the product look cheap. I hold EA accountable for putting them on such a strict deadline, but I question how much extra time would actually have helped elements of the writing itself. Would an extra six months of dev time have produced an ending without star-jar, or made Kai Leng not suck? If the writers themselves were set on certain things, the extra time would not have helped.

Point being, when there's limited time and resources, it's best to invest them in things that matter.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 17 novembre 2013 - 10:46 .

[SNascimento]

I though it was beautiful and that's it.

[PMC65]

deleted

Modifié par PMC65, 17 novembre 2013 - 11:37 .

[shit's fucked cunts]

Zazzerka wrote...

I'll check on this thread in the morning, when it has 24 pages.

Only two. Damn, must be losing it.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Zazzerka wrote...

Zazzerka wrote...

I'll check on this thread in the morning, when it has 24 pages.

Only two. Damn, must be losing it.

Well, David's not here. Were you expecting something different?

[shit's fucked cunts]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Well, David's not here. Were you expecting something different?

Oh right, he's banned, huh?

Man, we need Seifer back.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Zazzerka wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Well, David's not here. Were you expecting something different?

Oh right, he's banned, huh?

Man, we need Seifer back.

If he's banned, then it's recent. Otherwise, let's hope that it doesn't erode into another situation of a thread based on arbitrary rules for narrative being absolute.

Modifié par MassivelyEffective0730, 18 novembre 2013 - 03:58 .

[Cobalt2113]

As someone who romances Liara, this the way I saw it...

So it starts off and you're standing in the darkness with Liara. Suddenly there's an explosion and a shockwave rushes towards you. But instead of looking afraid or worried, she turns, embraces you and you kiss as the shockwave washes over you.

The way I interpreted that was her showing that no matter how hopeless things may get, even in the face of total destruction, that they will still be together and that somehow things will turn out ok.

[FlyingSquirrel]

SwobyJ wrote...

And the plan post-destroy? Just don't make any more synthetics.

Probably completely impossible in the Mass Effect universe. All we can do is hope that things were dealt with well enough (if picking Destroy, literal view) that people now know how to properly deal with AI
(kill em all Javik style and without Reapers stopping that process, or design them entirely as tools but with greater knowledge of how they work and kill em instantly otherwise, or working with them an immediately treat them as life worth respecting from the start - all are ways that would work differently than before, without the Reapers doing their Cycles).

Also, it seems to me that VIs can evolve into AIs in the Mass Effect universe. Didn't the geth start as VIs? And given that the malfunctioning VI on the lunar base tries to signal for help, and later is salvaged and developed into EDI, it seemed to have taken at least a step towards becoming an AI.

People might be convinced not to create more AIs after the war. But no more VIs? That seems about as likely as our current society swearing off computers.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

StreetMagic wrote...

I'm glad they gave me the option to reject it. At the end of the game at that. Liara can have that as her last memory of me.

I don't care what it means, or if it's tied to Synthesis.

Ditto.

[Han Shot First]

Barquiel wrote...

Gervaise wrote...

At the end Liara offers you the opportunity to join her mentally and this ends with you staring together into a white light.   First run through this actually affected my choice because I thought that perhaps it was a nod towards the synthesis option because of the white light and this was why I deviated from my gut instinct which was to go for destroy.
Did the white light have any relevance for you?   Do you think it was a deliberate attempt by the writers to confuse you?   Otherwise I couldn't really see the point of this, particularly if Shepard is not in a relationship with her.    It would have made more sense to get a series of flashbacks of all the events they had been involved in together which had led to that point.  So what did this vision mean to you?

It was simply Liara's way of giving Shepard a few moments of peace before the final push. I think the balls of light that they both were looking at are supposed to be the memories, but we...the players...just don't see them. Anyway, it wasn't sexual and no babies were made (Liara clearly draws a distinction between a "union" and the mind meld), that's simply absurd and it quite obviously was not the writers' intent with that scene.

I agree with Barq's interpretation. The snowflake-like balls of light were supposed to be memories, we (the players) just don't get the same view as Shepard & Liara. They are repsented that way because anything more would have required a lot of work on new character models and eviroments, and for a short scene in a video game that isn't practical.The characters are seeing the memories but the players don't.

As for the BSN speculation that it wasn't something sexual, I didn't see it that way at all even with the romance version. The writers intent was quite obviously that it was exactly how it was described: an intimate way for the Asari to say farewell to close friends, family, or lovers.

There wasn't anything remotely sexual in either version of that scene.

Modifié par Han Shot First, 19 novembre 2013 - 04:26 .

[iOnlySignIn]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

LOL

Hope she doesn't come after control Shep for child support. That'd be an awkward conversation.

Ah, dammit, now I've got this mental image of Harbinger stuttering and sputtering and trying to slink away when she comes pushing the carraige...

Harby will be up for diaper duty, no doubt about that.

[KaiserShep]

Linkenski wrote...

This vision was probably the biggest stretch in making something open for interpretation ever. It was litterally nothing.

If you played the entire trilogy, you remember everything anyway. Also, it would be a very bad idea to use images from cutscenes, because this spans trilogy-wide (do you recycle old scenes from the old games?), and would be an even worse idea to conjure up entirely new images that the player has never seen before, as they would be devoid of meaning. The concept matters much more than the specifics in this case. It's not nothing, because the interaction between Liara and Shepard within the mind meld is the part that actually matters, and the white light adds some contrast to the otherwise chaotic life Shepard leads in the story.

Modifié par KaiserShep, 19 novembre 2013 - 06:26 .

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

The ending of each previous game showed a red or blue background to let you know if you had a paragon or renegade oriented play through. This game didn't have that mechanic at the end because of reasons. So they let Liara show you. That was all it was. It was that simple. It was a game mechanic because we weren't getting ****ed by Liara, we were getting ****ed by the ending.