12 réponses à ce sujet

[MisanthropePrime]

You've seen the arguments- people correcting people out of nowhere when they refer to a Qunari instead of a "kossith", the writers' insistence that no one would use that term in the world... and with Qunari being playable in the upcoming game, I realized something.


Name wise, the Qunari are kind of the odd-man out when you're selecting your races. Everyone knows what a human, an elf, a dwarf is, even (or especially) if they're not familiar with the Dragon Age series. But Qunari? That's a word exclusive to the setting, and frankly, it's a bit hard to grasp, especially when you bring in the nuances of their culture and the fact that the playable Qunari doesn't actually follow the Qun.

But then I realized something: multiple times in Origins, Sten and the Qunari are referred to as "giants", and in some supplemental material, that's what the Qunari are called, "giants". For the most part, everyone familiar with fantasy knows what a giant is, and you can't say the Qunari don't meet the one necessary quality (said quality being "big").


So, I propose, that when referring to these such beings in a culturally-neutral (especially physiological) context, call them "giants". If you're talking about culture, then you can say "Qunari" or "Tal-Vashoth", or possibly qualify them as "Qunari giants", in the same way we'd use "Dalish" and "Dalish elves" interchangeably, or how we'd specify "Orzammar" or "Surfacer dwarves"

Now, some might say that the Qunari don't call themselves "giants" and that it's disingenuous to refer to them as such. Well, the elves and dwarves didn't historically refer to themselves as such, either: their words for themselves were "Elvhen" and "Dwarva" respectively, and it was humans, the dominant culture on Thedas who assigned them those names... which they now use. Humans do indeed call the Qunari giants, so I think it's a very apropriate term to use knowing the way the other races of Thedas were named.

This is mostly an initiative for the fans, but who knows, if we can standardize this and put the whole Qunari/Kossith feud to rest, maybe it'll pick up among the writers, too.

Modifié par MisanthropePrime, 17 novembre 2013 - 08:22 .

[Allan Schumacher]

The issue seems to rely soley on the developers and writers, like Gaider. Fans have no problems with the Kossith term.

Eh, plenty of people get into arguments over whether or not the term should or should not be used.

I don't care if someone does (or does not) use Kossith. All I ask is that people be respectful to others regardless of which preference they have.

[Allan Schumacher]

MisanthropePrime wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

The issue seems to rely soley on the developers and writers, like Gaider. Fans have no problems with the Kossith term.

Eh, plenty of people get into arguments over whether or not the term should or should not be used.

I don't care if someone does (or does not) use Kossith. All I ask is that people be respectful to others regardless of which preference they have.

The problem with the term "Kossith" is that it's a term for a culture in the same way "Qunari" is. It's got no currency in a discussion on culturally neutral topics like biology. It'd be like describing a man from modern Iraq and calling him "Babylonian". 

"Giant", in my proposal, would be when we want to discuss the physical creature. Such as "giants often have prominent horns but some are born without them. Qunari giants often believe such hornless individuals are destined for greatness". 

Giant is a catch all term for Very Large Creatures™ too, however.

Calling the Qunari giants would also preclude us from calling other creatures giants (which is typically a more generic name).

[Allan Schumacher]

Admittedly the more this discussion goes on, the more I support the current course of action because frankly, it seems somewhat appealing that a group of individuals cannot be easily labeled.

[Allan Schumacher]

TurretSyndrome wrote...

Neither Qunari nor Kossith are correct terms to identify the race with. The problem I see in this is that Bioware encourages all to use one and denounces the other, especially when the one being used can cause more confusion than the one not used.

While I loathe it when people get on someone's case for using the term Kossith, I also equally got frustrated when people would come in and do the same when people would use the term Qunari.  Like there was an elitism to knowing The One True Name™ because they were lore afficianados and so forth.

[Allan Schumacher]

I know what you're talking about, I feel the same way. I hope you're not implying that I'm one of those people, as I only intend to correct those who strongly feel that "Qunari" is the right word and using anything else is an absolute sin.

It's more an observation and a reminder, since the point came up more than once in this thread that people get hostile towards those that use the term Kossith.

[Allan Schumacher]

Next, though, isn't the brouhaha over whether Kossith or Qunari being the "true" name for the race indicative of the fact we need a third, less-charged name for the race? And rather than invent one, why not just draw from lore that exists already and call them giants?

Perhaps it's just my human stubbornness/spitefulness that has become increasingly okay with the use of the term.

Maybe we can consider it a social experiment in respecting people who wish to use one term or another? Which side do you think will be less belligerent and more willing to accept that it's okay for the others to refer to the race in a term that makes it clear and comfortable for them?

[David Gaider]

GabrielXL wrote...
Honestly, from where I sit, this is a non-sensical answer to a (deliberately) very convoluted issue/subject... And then some wonder why threads like this keep popping up. Seriously... How difficult could it have been to write:

"<insert name> are the horned, gray-skinned people/species who were formerly referred to (culturally) as the Kossith... blah, blah, blah."

That would have put this issue to rest, once and for all. Instead we have, "You could call them this or that if you want... blah, blah, blah."

Because it's not our problem.

All I've said is how the term is used in-game, and the only confusion it causes in-game is deliberate-- the Qunari insistence on exact terms, and lack of a general one, would indeed be confusing for anyone who delved into it more... but most do not. Like I've said before, most people think of them all as Qunari. That's how they'll be referenced. To most fans, that's exactly what they are.

The problem lies with fans who deliberately choose to complicate the matter. If that's what they wish to do, they're free to do so as long as they aren't forcing their views on others-- the only answer I've ever given is what is correct as per the lore, and if one thinks we're apt to change the in-game lore just to facilitate those who wish to discuss it out-of-game, think again.

Modifié par David Gaider, 20 novembre 2013 - 01:08 .

[David Gaider]

windsea wrote...
Also using Qunari and Tal-Vashoth will work for the those directly related to the Qun but it does leave out one yet unseen type of Kossith, one born outside of the Qun.

In terms of how it would play out in-game, consider this:

A human walks up to a Qunari standing in the road. "Gosh," they exclaim. "You're Qunari!"

If they are a follower of the Qun, they answer: "Yes."

If they left the Qun, they would frown and say: "No. I am Tal-Vashoth." That would confuse the human, as it's the sort of technicality that's really only meaningful to the Qunari.

If they were born out of the Qun, and didn't even know enough about the Qun to call themselves Tal-Vashoth, they answer: "Yes." Because they are indeed Qunari, insofar as they know.

The weird classifications of the Qunari are specific to those who follow the Qun, but that's part of the lore and an in-game matter. We have no trouble with it. In just about all cases, "Qunari" refers to the race unless you're actually speaking to a follower of the Qun-- in which case, it might get confusing. But then the Qunari can be stubbornly confusing about many topics.

If this makes it difficult to players to talk about it outside the game, primarily because people who refuse to recognize the existence of context will leap upon any reference to "Qunari" and go "do you mean a follower of the Qun???" ...so be it. Like I said in the previous post, it's not our conundrum. Feel free to use Kossith, so long as you realize that many people have no idea what that term means, since it doesn't come up in-game.

Modifié par David Gaider, 20 novembre 2013 - 01:22 .

[David Gaider]

GabrielXL wrote...
I appreciate you taking the time to weigh in on this. More specifically, it seems that your response suggests something I hadn't thought about... Please correct me if I'm wrong. I was under the impression that those who wrote the lore and the game writers worked hand in hand. Apparently this isn't (always) the case, and if I'm correct on this, it would serve to clarify why there seems to be a disconnect between events and things said in-game versus what's read (and explained) elsewhere.

You'll have to be more specific. What do you mean by "elsewhere"?

The game writers do make the lore. The only "elsewhere" I know of is the World of Thedas, and what it says about "kossith" and the use thereof is correct.

[David Gaider]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...
I feel like the problem and part of the reason it's confusing (or at least counter intuitive) to a lot of fans is that one would expect the Qunari themselves to need to sometimes need to describe a distinction between giant grey oxmen and all followers or the Qun, even though they are the same word.

For example, if there was ever a widespread detonation of Sar-quamek in some sort of incident and the Qunari sent in some of their own guys to clean up the mess, one of them would have to say "Keep the elves and humans away, only send in [word for Qunari race]."

Seeing as Qunari consider fully converted elves and humans to be equally "Qunari" I would expect just referring simply as "Qunari" would not sound entirely accurate. The only word I can imagine they might use is "Qunari Qunari," but that sounds a little redundant.

You say that like redundancy isn't something the Qunari would embrace whole-heartedly.

Do you actually want an answer for how Qunlat would deal with that? Or is this one of those situations where you would keep coming up with scenarios that seem to require a simple linquistic term where one doesn't exist?

Modifié par David Gaider, 20 novembre 2013 - 03:17 .

[David Gaider]

GabrielXL wrote...
"Elsewhere" in this case means not in the World of Thedas. For instance, the reference to your comments earlier in the thread.

I... have no idea what that means, unless you're like that one fan who demanded I source my own statements.

In regards to this particular thread/issue, the conclusion I drew is that there is no definitive racial identifier for the large, horned, gray-skinned people who were formerly known as the Kossith.

Correct. The Qunari have a complex naming system that treats identity in a very particular manner-- something that no-one who is unfamiliar with it would have any knowledge about. It's only when you start talking to a follower of the Qun or someone who knows about them that it becomes confusing, even if it's not to them... hence the rather bizarre conversations one might have with Sten or with another Qunari about definitions.

I understand that the name Qunari is what's used now to identify them, but that isn't really the question. First impressions seem to indicate that they aren't human or dwarves, so what are they?

An interesting question, but irrelevant.

When there's a (real or perceived) disconnect between what I think I know and what I read, I can suspend disbelief to a certain degree and some things I'm prepared to take on faith, but you can't fault me for having an opinion on issues that I feel are unclear, when the lore doesn't seem to adequately explain them. Sure, you could say that fans are overthinking the issue, but if that's your stance, then you can't be too surprised that these questions get asked time and again or that people wonder about the reasoning behind the lore. Some people don't have that much faith. *chuckles*

Oh, I understand. The Qunari are designed to be very alien in their outlook, and since they're also not inclined to explain themselves at length to outsiders they're going to seem impenetrable. All I can ever really say is that it works fine for us writers, as we understand the system just as they do. I can only explain how the lore will apply in-game, and you folks can do with that as you will.

If someone says that Qunari terminlogy is confusing, however, all I can say is "yes". If that someone suggests I come up with terms so people can talk about it outside the game, I don't really see the point... neither for fans who evidently recoil at the idea of using an adjective, nor for us in adding to the lore just for the sake of forumites. I can't really put it plainer than that... and, to be honest, have addressed this issue far more than it deserves.

[David Gaider]

MisanthropePrime wrote...
The Qunari may not care what "race" they are, but humanity might. And considering that humans in Ferelden do indeed call Qunari giants, I don't understand why we (this goes for the community primarily) cannot refer to them as simply "giants", by the same logic that elves and dwarves got their common names. This would get rid of any ambiguity.

Terms such as "giant" or "oxman" are pejoratives.

The only ones who care about being called "Qunari" are the Qunari themselves-- specifically the Tal-Vashoth. They might also confuse the issue by referring to non-Qunari converts as Qunari... which would surprise anyone who thinks it's a racial term (which is most everyone).

But if you're saying "humans would try to classify them"... then, yes. They call their race "Qunari". That is not ambiguous.

Insofar as what the community calls them, "giant" is fine. So is "horned Qunari" (there's that adjective again, darn it) or even "kossith"-- the only difference is how well the use of your term will actually aid your communication with others. So long as you believe they'll understand what you're referring to, go ahead. If you're doing it just to be anal, without considering your audience, and then snidely deride anyone who doesn't understand your reference just because you think "Qunari" is too inexact... well, then you're likely to encounter problems. Don't blame me if you do.

Modifié par David Gaider, 20 novembre 2013 - 04:06 .