211 réponses à ce sujet

[MisanthropePrime]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Next, though, isn't the brouhaha over whether Kossith or Qunari being the "true" name for the race indicative of the fact we need a third, less-charged name for the race? And rather than invent one, why not just draw from lore that exists already and call them giants?

Perhaps it's just my human stubbornness/spitefulness that has become increasingly okay with the use of the term.

Maybe we can consider it a social experiment in respecting people who wish to use one term or another? Which side do you think will be less belligerent and more willing to accept that it's okay for the others to refer to the race in a term that makes it clear and comfortable for them?

Well my first instinct is to say "why respect what the Qunari call themselves when they subject everyone who doesn't agree with their philosophy to brainwashing magic", but that's just being snippy.

I'm mostly approaching this from an out-of-universe perspective, detached, almost like a biologist or naturalist. I feel that when we talk about the physical features of the people, such as the fact that they have horns, claws, and do not dream, we need something that's separate from their culture. Especially considering the Qunari eugenics program. Characters in-game can still call them Qunari, Ox-men or even, yes, Kossith if for some reason the term gets popularized in universe, but when discussing the physical race (out-of-universe on the forums, or maybe in a codex entry by a scholar or physician), it would be best to refer to them with a culturally-neutral phrase, and my personal tastes are showing but I think "giant" is the best for that situation.

[Tremere]

Why not just call them "Trolls", since they want to control everything and "poo" on anything they don't like?

Modifié par GabrielXL, 19 novembre 2013 - 10:15 .

[The Xand]

I like how the terminology is what people find most debatable about the Qunari rather than their actual philosophy.

Besides, I think by now we've already established that the term for the Qunari race is Qunari, and non Qunari followers of the Qun is Viddathari. Kossith is just the name of their older pre-Qun culture. It'd be like calling modern Scots "Picts" or "Pictish".

Modifié par The Xand, 19 novembre 2013 - 10:24 .

[TurretSyndrome]

The Xand wrote...
Besides, I think by now we've already established that the term for the Qunari race is Qunari, and non Qunari followers of the Qun is Viddathiri. Kossith is just the name of their older pre-Qun culture.

Both are incorrect, people can use either to identify the race. That's what's been established.

[Vulpe]

MisanthropePrime wrote...

The giants aren't native to Seheron or Par Vollen, but another continent. As for calling them "grey" or "metal" giants- why? "Giants" suffices just fine- there aren't any other kind of giant out there (biologically) that require use identifying them by their skin color. We don't have "white" or "brown" elves, just "elves", despite their variation in skin color.

It's ok to call them giants if you know the lore. People who know the lore will get it fast. The problem is that it is a little ambiguous and the ones that don't know it very well might get a little confused. Why not call them white haired giants ? The white hair seems to be universal in horned and hornless qunari and, for someone who doesn't know the lore very well, it's easier to figure out who those white haired giants are. 

GabrielXL wrote...

Why not just call them "Trolls", since they want to control everything and "poo" on anything they don't like?

Mr. Gaider said in a past thread regarding the existance of trolls in DA:I that we'll see them, but they will not look as we might expect them to look. Now, if he was serious or just trolling, I don't know, but if we get a troll like creature in DA:I, it might cause a little problem in the future. Here's the thread

[The Xand]

TurretSyndrome wrote...

The Xand wrote...
Besides, I think by now we've already established that the term for the Qunari race is Qunari, and non Qunari followers of the Qun is Viddathiri. Kossith is just the name of their older pre-Qun culture.

Both are incorrect, people can use either to identify the race. That's what's been established.

Except that David Gaider agrees with me, ergo making those terms and their usage correct.

To anyone in Thedas who doesn’t know any better, they’re all Qunari. The culture and the religion are one and the same thing.

"But what about the followers of the Qun who aren’t big, horned people?"

Properly, they’re viddathari. But since nobody would know what that
means, you can call them “elven Qunari”, “human Qunari” or what have
you. They are, after all, exceptions to the rule.

Kossith is simply an antiquated term that would be used by neither the Qunari nor the Tal’Vashoth and has never even been heard of by anyone else in Thedas, so it’s not apt to be used in-game anytime soon.

http://dgaider.tumbl...-i-hate-how-the

Modifié par The Xand, 19 novembre 2013 - 10:34 .

[TurretSyndrome]

The Xand wrote...

Except that David Gaider agrees with me, ergo making those terms and their usage correct.

No, he just advocates it's usage, it still isn't correct.

[Thomas Andresen]

Filament wrote...

MisanthropePrime wrote...

But this is the internet, and this is a video game community: we don't leave a stone unturned.

I wouldn't be so charitable. The more I hear about this the more it just feels like the same mindset that makes people insist on using terms like "mongoloid" and "negroid." Eff that.

I find myself nodding to this.

[The Xand]

TurretSyndrome wrote...

The Xand wrote...

Except that David Gaider agrees with me, ergo making those terms and their usage correct.

No, he just advocates it's usage, it still isn't correct.

Because you know so much better than the lead writer of Dragon Age. Rest assured both terms are quite correct.

Edit; by which I assume you to mean Qunari for the race, and Viddathari for converts from other races. Kossith is merely an older term for the race and no longer relevent because again it would be like calling modern Scots Pictish.

Modifié par The Xand, 19 novembre 2013 - 10:43 .

[TeamLexana]

Isn't calling a Qunari, a Kossith, the same as calling a human, a ****** sapien? Technically correct but the humans in the room might look at you funny.

[The Xand]

TeamLexana wrote...

Isn't calling a Qunari, a Kossith, the same as calling a human, a ****** sapien? Technically correct but the humans in the room might look at you funny.

No, because it's an antiquated cultural term. It would be more akin to calling the French Gauls, the Italians Romans or the Germans Prussian.

Modifié par The Xand, 19 novembre 2013 - 10:48 .

[TeamLexana]

Ahh. Well, I will just keep calling them Qunari then.

[TurretSyndrome]

The Xand wrote...
Because you know so much better than the lead writer of Dragon Age. Rest assured both terms are quite correct.

You should really read what he says in the link you gave me. He says Kossith is incorrect, but never says Qunari is correct either. He only admits that Qunari is known by everyone in the world of Thedas and therefore is used to refer to the giant horned ones as well the ones who follow the religion. 

He feels that it is better for the community to go with Qunari than Kossith as there will be confusion for the ones new to the franchise. Contrary to his beliefs, I feel that using Kossith(used by us, not people of Thedas) is a lot less confusing than using Qunari, because just as he says, the word is very new. 

All I'm saying is, Kossith, in my opinion is a better stand-in name than Qunari.

If one needs to explain what Viddathari means one can say "Viddathari are non-Kossiths who follow the Qun" or "Viddathari are non-Qunari who follow the Qun". While in the first sentence you can very clearly explain the meaning of the word, in the second one you have to continue by saying that Qunari also refers to the giant horned race people.

The usage of an antiquated term is a lot better than the usage of an already popular one.

Modifié par TurretSyndrome, 19 novembre 2013 - 10:58 .

[Tremere]

JulianWellpit wrote...


Mr. Gaider said in a past thread regarding the existance of trolls in DA:I that we'll see them, but they will not look as we might expect them to look. Now, if he was serious or just trolling, I don't know, but if we get a troll like creature in DA:I, it might cause a little problem in the future. Here's the thread

With all due respect, I'm inclined to take anything Mr. Gaider says with a tablespoon of salt. Especially when you consider the reasons why threads like this exist in the first place.

[Tremere]

TurretSyndrome wrote...

The Xand wrote...
Because you know so much better than the lead writer of Dragon Age. Rest assured both terms are quite correct.

You should really read what he says in the link you gave me. He says Kossith is incorrect, but never says Qunari is correct either. He only admits that Qunari is known by everyone in the world of Thedas and therefore is used to refer to the giant horned ones as well the ones who follow the religion. 

He feels that it is better for the community to go with Qunari than Kossith as there will be confusion for the ones new to the franchise. Contrary to his beliefs, I feel that using Kossith(used by us, not people of Thedas) is a lot less confusing than using Qunari, because just as he says, the word is very new. 

All I'm saying is, Kossith, in my opinion is a better stand-in name than Qunari.

If one needs to explain what Viddathari means one can say "Viddathari are non-Kossiths who follow the Qun" or "Viddathari are non-Qunari who follow the Qun". While in the first sentence you can very clearly explain the meaning of the word, in the second one you have to continue by saying that Qunari also refers to the giant horned race people.

The usage of an antiquated term is a lot better than the usage of an already popular one.

*nods in agreement*

Modifié par GabrielXL, 19 novembre 2013 - 11:02 .

[TurretSyndrome]

GabrielXL wrote...

With all due respect, I'm inclined to take anything Mr. Gaider says with a tablespoon of salt. Especially when you consider the reasons why threads like this exist in the first place.

Precisely how I feel. Sometimes I get the feeling that elements in the Dragon Age franchise are purposefully convoluted to be the beacons of endless debates, but I may be wrong.

[The Xand]

TurretSyndrome wrote...

The Xand wrote...
Because you know so much better than the lead writer of Dragon Age. Rest assured both terms are quite correct.

You should really read what he says in the link you gave me. He says Kossith is incorrect, but never says Qunari is correct either. He only admits that Qunari is known by everyone in the world of Thedas and therefore is used to refer to the giant horned ones as well the ones who follow the religion. 

He feels that it is better for the community to go with Qunari than Kossith as there will be confusion for the ones new to the franchise. Contrary to his beliefs, I feel that using Kossith(used by us, not people of Thedas) is a lot less confusing than using Qunari, because just as he says, the word is very new. 

All I'm saying is, Kossith, in my opinion is a better stand-in name than Qunari.

If one needs to explain what Viddathari means one can say "Viddathari are non-Kossiths who follow the Qun" or "Viddathari are non-Qunari who follow the Qun". While in the first sentence you can very clearly explain the meaning of the word, in the second one you have to continue by saying that Qunari also refers to the giant horned race people.

The usage of an antiquated term is a lot better than the usage of an already popular one.

You didn't read it properly if you think that's what it said so I'm just going to post the whole statement.

To anyone in Thedas who doesn’t know any better, they’re all Qunari. The culture and the religion are one and the same thing.

"But what about the followers of the Qun who aren’t big, horned people?"

Properly, they’re viddathari. But since nobody would know what that
means, you can call them “elven Qunari”, “human Qunari” or what have you. They are, after all, exceptions to the rule.

"But what about big, horned people who aren’t followers of the Qun?"

Properly, they’re Tal’Vashoth. Again, since few would know what that means, they’d just be called Qunari (to their annoyance, but they’re likely used to it).

"But that’s confusing!"

No, it’s really not. It’s about as confusing as “Jewish”, and insisting on “kossith” because it’s mentioned in a few codex entries makes about as much sense as insisting someone of Jewish descent be referred to as either Ashke**** or Sephardim— as if that would be clearer for most people. Of course, when I bring this up I get a round of “ohhh, Gaider’s upset again.” I’m not upset in the slightest. Kossith is simply an antiquated term that would be used by neither the Qunari nor the Tal’Vashoth and has never even been heard of by anyone else in Thedas, so it’s not apt to be used in-game anytime soon. Thus people insisting on its usage as “proper” when most people who’ve even played the game have never heard of it just makes me scratch my head. It’s bizarre, particularly on the odd occasion when someone schools another fan about it— like they’re just not educated enough to know they should be confused.

We’ll call them Qunari. If we feel the need to distinguish from the norm, either in terms of race or religion, we’ll do so… and the only people who’ll be confused are those who enjoy overthinking it.

To summarise;

Proper term for Qunari race: Qunari

Proper term for non-Qunari followers of the Qun: Viddathari

Proper term for Qunari heretics: Tal-Vashoth

Antiquated no longer relevent term for Qunari: Kossith



Proof, straight from the horse's mouth.

Modifié par The Xand, 19 novembre 2013 - 11:10 .

[Nohvarr]

TeamLexana wrote...

Ahh. Well, I will just keep calling them Qunari then.

When Speaking to other fans about the group in general I tend to call them Qunari, the Ox-people and or the grey skins. For DA:I I intend to refer to my character as tal vashoth, but that's really more of an RP decision. The people of the Qun are big on roles to the point where actual names are secondary at best. So since my character chose to abandon the role the Qun laid out for him, he at first considers himself Tal Vashoth. However he may chose another name to reflect his role after the games opening. For now since 'Inquisitor' is his role, it will also be his name, at least until I do my first run through at which point I will have a better Idea of the kind of 'role' I will want him to accept. One other role/name I am considering for my Tal Vashoth is 'Warbreaker'.

Modifié par Nohvarr, 19 novembre 2013 - 11:06 .

[TeamLexana]

Nohvarr wrote...

TeamLexana wrote...

Ahh. Well, I will just keep calling them Qunari then.

When Speaking to other fans about the group in general I tend to call them Qunari, the Ox-people and or the grey skins. For DA:I I intend to refer to my character as tal vashoth, but that's really more of an RP decision. The people of the Qun are big on roles to the point where actual names are secondary at best. So since my character chose to abandon the role the Qun laid out for him, he at first considers himself Tal Vashoth. However he may chose another name to reflect his role after the games opening. For now since 'Inquisitor' is his role, it will also be his name, at least until I do my first run through at which point I will have a better Idea of the kind of 'role' I will want him to accept. One other role/name I am considering for my Tal Vashoth is 'Warbreaker'.

That's cool. I can respect that. Makes sense to me.

[TurretSyndrome]

The Xand wrote...

To anyone in Thedas who doesn’t know any better, they’re all Qunari. The culture and the religion are one and the same thing.

We’ll call them Qunari. If we feel the need to distinguish from the norm, either in terms of race or religion, we’ll do so…

Again, he never says that Qunari is the correct term. He asks people to refer to them as Qunari in the same way people in the game who are not of the race or the religion, do so. That's what he meant by "To anyone in Thedas who doesn't know any better".

He also says "We'll call them Qunari, but doesn't say that they are Qunari. Hope you get it this time. 

Modifié par TurretSyndrome, 19 novembre 2013 - 11:19 .

[JerZey CJ]

The Sarendoctrinator wrote...

iakus wrote...

I call teh race qunari. Lower case "q". Just like elf, dwarf, and human.

I call the followers of the Qun "Qunari" upper case "Q" like Andrastrian, Dalish, and Marcher.

Same here. It follows the capitalization rules I'm familiar with - religions are capitalized, and races/species names like human are not. 

I wouldn't call them giants. They're not the same as the giants I've seen in other fantasy worlds, so it would seem strange for me to call them by the same name when the game doesn't classify them as that anyway.

I've been doing this too. And id we had to give them a new name, I'll say it again, I think Gray Ones or Vashoth would be the best term.

[Tremere]

TurretSyndrome wrote...

GabrielXL wrote...

With all due respect, I'm inclined to take anything Mr. Gaider says with a tablespoon of salt. Especially when you consider the reasons why threads like this exist in the first place.

Precisely how I feel. Sometimes I get the feeling that elements in the Dragon Age franchise are purposefully convoluted to be the beacons of endless debates, but I may be wrong.

*chuckles* ...and still, "here we are!"

Modifié par GabrielXL, 19 novembre 2013 - 09:27 .

[The Xand]

TurretSyndrome wrote...

Again, he never says that Qunari is the correct term. He asks people to refer to them as Qunari in the same way people in the game who are not of the race or the religion, do so. That's what he meant by "To anyone in Thedas who doesn't know any better".

He also says "We'll call them Qunari, but doesn't say that they are Qunari. Hope you get it this time. 

Except he blatantly says just that. He says the race is Qunari, and if he needs to specify if it's the religion or race he's talking about he would say so but he accepts that the non-Qunari of Thedas might call them very different things being ill informed about the nature of the Qunari.

You left out the most important part btw;

We’ll call them Qunari. If we feel the need to distinguish from the norm, either in terms of race or religion, we’ll do so… and the only people who’ll be confused are those who enjoy overthinking it.

Proper term for Qunari race: Qunari

Proper term for non-Qunari followers of the Qun: Viddathari

Proper term for Qun heretics (of any race): Tal-Vashoth

Antiquated no longer relevent term for Qunari: Kossith


That's just how things are, but if you want to call them Kossith, that's fine. But you'd be wrong. David Gaider thinks so too, and he wrote up most of Dragon Age.

Modifié par The Xand, 19 novembre 2013 - 11:28 .

[Vulpe]

 People seem very attached to the qunlat names.Why don't we get rid of them and look at the qunari language for a better term.

Or even better - we know that Ashkkari Koslun was a qunari and a kossith. Why don't we call them the race/people of Koslun, koslun'bas or simply kosluns ? We don't know the name of their original country so why not use the only qunari/kossith name that we know that it's just a name ?

Modifié par JulianWellpit, 19 novembre 2013 - 11:27 .

[TurretSyndrome]

The Xand wrote...
Except he blatantly says just that. He says the race is Qunari, and if he needs to specify if it's the religion or race he's talking about he would say so but he accepts that the non-Qunari of Thedas might call them very different things being ill informed about the nature of the Qunari.

That's just how things are, but if you want to call them Kossith, that's fine. But you'd be wrong. David Gaider thinks so too, and he wrote up most of Dragon Age.

He doesn't admit that the entire race is Qunari. Not in his post, not in the game, nowhere, he's just using it as a stand-in name for the race. 

If he does, he'd be contradicting himself since no Qunari will ever accept the Tal-vashoth or others like Maraas to be called Qunari, even if it is just to distinguish them as a race, because to them, Qunari has only one meaning; the followers of Qun.

In the same way, the horned ones who are not Qunari will deny the name, especially the ones who are Tal-Vashoth.

If you can't understand it even now, then it's fine, I'm done here.

Modifié par TurretSyndrome, 19 novembre 2013 - 11:36 .