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[MisanthropePrime]

The Xand wrote...

MisanthropePrime wrote...

I get the distinct feeling that you're a masochist, Mr. Gaider. If not, I'm sorry for causing you some undue trouble and hope we (this is a collective, BSN-encompassing 'we') can maintain a civil tone and not have to lock this thread.

Now, hopefully you see this and can do a thought experiment with me. Let's go back in time, back to around first contact between humanity and elves.

A human walks up to an elf standing in the road. "Gosh," they exclaim. "You're an elf!"

If they are a a slave to humans or otherwise attuned to human culture, they answer: "Yes."

If they are independent of humanity (say, a citizen of Arlathan), they would frown and say: "No. I am Elvhen." That would confuse the human, as it's the sort of technicality that's really only meaningful to the Elves.

Do you get what I'm saying here? Humans don't care what the elves called themselves (and while, to us English speakers, "Elvhen" looks similar to "Elf" I'm not sure if the words are cognate in Tevene- can you chime in on that?), and furthermore, they don't care about the cultural nuances and logic of those societies. The Qunari may not care what "race" they are, but humanity might. And considering that humans in Ferelden do indeed call Qunari giants, I don't understand why we (this goes for the community primarily) cannot refer to them as simply "giants", by the same logic that elves and dwarves got their common names. This would get rid of any ambiguity.

EDIT: Actually, I just remembered a short bit by Louis C.K. that perfectly encompasses what I want to say, how elves got their name in the DA setting and how, theoretically, "Qunari" might be referred to as "giants". Replace "White people" with "humans", "America" with "Thedas" and "Elves" with "Indians"


The way I see it, "giant" is the race and "Qunari", "Tal-Vashoth" and even "Kossith" are the cultures or, perhaps in game terms, "origins" for those races ("Kossith" being akin somewhat to, say, Avvar), in the same way that a human might be "Ferelden" or "Orlesian" or even a noble and a commoner.

The human race name for Qunari is Qunari.

Humans haven't had significant exposure to non-Qunari giants/members-of-the-race-Sten-belongs-to, and they have varying names for it, including "giants" and "oxmen". I'm reminded of how the villain in Captain Phillips constantly refers to the titular character as "Irish" despite him being American.

[The Xand]

MisanthropePrime wrote...

The Xand wrote...

MisanthropePrime wrote...

I get the distinct feeling that you're a masochist, Mr. Gaider. If not, I'm sorry for causing you some undue trouble and hope we (this is a collective, BSN-encompassing 'we') can maintain a civil tone and not have to lock this thread.

Now, hopefully you see this and can do a thought experiment with me. Let's go back in time, back to around first contact between humanity and elves.

A human walks up to an elf standing in the road. "Gosh," they exclaim. "You're an elf!"

If they are a a slave to humans or otherwise attuned to human culture, they answer: "Yes."

If they are independent of humanity (say, a citizen of Arlathan), they would frown and say: "No. I am Elvhen." That would confuse the human, as it's the sort of technicality that's really only meaningful to the Elves.

Do you get what I'm saying here? Humans don't care what the elves called themselves (and while, to us English speakers, "Elvhen" looks similar to "Elf" I'm not sure if the words are cognate in Tevene- can you chime in on that?), and furthermore, they don't care about the cultural nuances and logic of those societies. The Qunari may not care what "race" they are, but humanity might. And considering that humans in Ferelden do indeed call Qunari giants, I don't understand why we (this goes for the community primarily) cannot refer to them as simply "giants", by the same logic that elves and dwarves got their common names. This would get rid of any ambiguity.

EDIT: Actually, I just remembered a short bit by Louis C.K. that perfectly encompasses what I want to say, how elves got their name in the DA setting and how, theoretically, "Qunari" might be referred to as "giants". Replace "White people" with "humans", "America" with "Thedas" and "Elves" with "Indians"


The way I see it, "giant" is the race and "Qunari", "Tal-Vashoth" and even "Kossith" are the cultures or, perhaps in game terms, "origins" for those races ("Kossith" being akin somewhat to, say, Avvar), in the same way that a human might be "Ferelden" or "Orlesian" or even a noble and a commoner.

The human race name for Qunari is Qunari.

Humans haven't had significant exposure to non-Qunari giants/members-of-the-race-Sten-belongs-to, and they have varying names for it, including "giants" and "oxmen". I'm reminded of how the villain in Captain Phillips constantly refers to the titular character as "Irish" despite him being American.

I'd have gone for a plural variant of Qun ending in t personally. That's what I imagine the Tevinters call them anyways.

That villain was obviously talking about a plastic paddy so it's not too great a stretch to call him Irish. Americans seem oddly obsessed with their European ancestry. The Scots-Americans are my favourite (plastic jocks). Great to watch them take to the streets in kilts and bagpipes in parades, proud of their grand heritage.

Modifié par The Xand, 20 novembre 2013 - 08:27 .

[MisanthropePrime]

"Quaints"?

[kinderschlager]

trying to make a succinct and well thought out argument would just result in said endeavor getting picked to pieces. suffice to say, the horned Quanari not having a racial name/distinction annoys me to no end as it goes against basic human nature to try and classify/distinguish one unique group from another. they don't HAVE to have a name for themselves, some other race would GIVE them one to use when making a distinction. (the people of thedas use the words "dog, cat, human, cow, elf to distinguish, why would this be any different?)

[Heimdall]

The Xand wrote...
I'd have gone for a plural variant of Qun ending in t personally. That's what I imagine the Tevinters call them anyways.

That villain was obviously talking about a plastic paddy so it's not too great a stretch to call him Irish. Americans seem oddly obsessed with their European ancestry. The Scots-Americans are my favourite (plastic jocks). Great to watch them take to the streets in kilts and bagpipes in parades, proud of their grand heritage.

Its how we differentiate each other to feel special.

Then again, many are mongrels like me and have ancestors scattered all over europe, so we can take our pick.

[The Xand]

kinderschlager wrote...

trying to make a succinct and well thought out argument would just result in said endeavor getting picked to pieces. suffice to say, the horned Quanari not having a racial name/distinction annoys me to no end as it goes against basic human nature to try and classify/distinguish one unique group from another. they don't HAVE to have a name for themselves, some other race would GIVE them one to use when making a distinction. (the people of thedas use the words "dog, cat, human, cow, elf to distinguish, why would this be any different?)

What's wrong with Qunari?

Lord Aesir wrote...

The Xand wrote...
I'd have gone for a plural variant of Qun ending in t personally. That's what I imagine the Tevinters call them anyways.

That
villain was obviously talking about a plastic paddy so it's not too
great a stretch to call him Irish. Americans seem oddly obsessed with
their European ancestry. The Scots-Americans are my favourite (plastic
jocks). Great to watch them take to the streets in kilts and bagpipes in
parades, proud of their grand heritage.

Its how we differentiate each other to feel special.

Then again, many are mongrels like me and have ancestors scattered all over europe, so we can take our pick.

I think everyone has looked up their ancestry at some point. In Scotland it's common to check which clans your family belonged to based on surname. I seem to be of prime Pictish and Gaelic stock, give or take with my dad's side originating in Ireland and my mum's from the North-East of Scotland. I'm all Scottish though

Would give my left nut to live in America however. Such a hot place and the accents are sexy. Seems so pleasant as well. Scotland is so crap our suicide rates are twice as high as everywhere else on the Isles and our psychiatrists are just awful, without any option to seek private help.

Modifié par The Xand, 20 novembre 2013 - 03:31 .

[Heimdall]

The Xand wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

The Xand wrote...
I'd have gone for a plural variant of Qun ending in t personally. That's what I imagine the Tevinters call them anyways.

That
villain was obviously talking about a plastic paddy so it's not too
great a stretch to call him Irish. Americans seem oddly obsessed with
their European ancestry. The Scots-Americans are my favourite (plastic
jocks). Great to watch them take to the streets in kilts and bagpipes in
parades, proud of their grand heritage.

Its how we differentiate each other to feel special.

Then again, many are mongrels like me and have ancestors scattered all over europe, so we can take our pick.

I think everyone has looked up their ancestry at some point. In Scotland it's common to check which clans your family belonged to based on surname. I seem to be of prime Pictish and Gaelic stock, give or take.

I look mine up, though it can be quite bewildering when your family's been in the US for so long.  I know my mother's father's mother was of scottish descent, a Campbell.  One of my mother's father's father's parents was probably Welsh, but we don't know which.  My mother's mother's side of the family traces itself to a Dutch trader that immigrated to New Amsterdam, and also some french ancestry (Or so my grandmother claims).  My father's side is straight English save for my German great grandmother.

So I feel pretty mixed.

Modifié par Lord Aesir, 20 novembre 2013 - 03:45 .

[David Gaider]

MisanthropePrime wrote...
The Qunari may not care what "race" they are, but humanity might. And considering that humans in Ferelden do indeed call Qunari giants, I don't understand why we (this goes for the community primarily) cannot refer to them as simply "giants", by the same logic that elves and dwarves got their common names. This would get rid of any ambiguity.

Terms such as "giant" or "oxman" are pejoratives.

The only ones who care about being called "Qunari" are the Qunari themselves-- specifically the Tal-Vashoth. They might also confuse the issue by referring to non-Qunari converts as Qunari... which would surprise anyone who thinks it's a racial term (which is most everyone).

But if you're saying "humans would try to classify them"... then, yes. They call their race "Qunari". That is not ambiguous.

Insofar as what the community calls them, "giant" is fine. So is "horned Qunari" (there's that adjective again, darn it) or even "kossith"-- the only difference is how well the use of your term will actually aid your communication with others. So long as you believe they'll understand what you're referring to, go ahead. If you're doing it just to be anal, without considering your audience, and then snidely deride anyone who doesn't understand your reference just because you think "Qunari" is too inexact... well, then you're likely to encounter problems. Don't blame me if you do.

Modifié par David Gaider, 20 novembre 2013 - 04:06 .

[The Xand]

Lord Aesir wrote...

The Xand wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

The Xand wrote...
I'd have gone for a plural variant of Qun ending in t personally. That's what I imagine the Tevinters call them anyways.

That
villain was obviously talking about a plastic paddy so it's not too
great a stretch to call him Irish. Americans seem oddly obsessed with
their European ancestry. The Scots-Americans are my favourite (plastic
jocks). Great to watch them take to the streets in kilts and bagpipes in
parades, proud of their grand heritage.

Its how we differentiate each other to feel special.

Then again, many are mongrels like me and have ancestors scattered all over europe, so we can take our pick.

I think everyone has looked up their ancestry at some point. In Scotland it's common to check which clans your family belonged to based on surname. I seem to be of prime Pictish and Gaelic stock, give or take.

I look mine up, though it can be quite bewildering.  I know my mother's father's mother was of scottish descent, a Campbell.  One of my mother's father's father's parents was probably Welsh, but we don't know which.  My mother's mother's side of the family traces itself to a Dutch trader that immigrated to New Amsterdam, and also some french ancestry (Or so my grandmother claims).  My father's side is straight English save for my German great grandmother.

So I feel pretty mixed.

It's awesome how convoluted family histories can be. Think I had an ancestor beheaded in the Tower of London. For stealing sheep, presumably. Others were deported to Jamaica. Although my direct family seem pretty uninteresting, having only made it as far as Aberdeen from Inverness in like 3 centuries, while my dad's side seem to switch nationality every few generations going from proud Irish to prouder English to mee, proudest Scottish. Aha, funny that you've Campbell blood in you. They annexed my family's clan through marriage, creating the Campbell of Cawdor clan from Clan Calder. Ofc the upshot of that is that we got to fight on the winning side at Culloden Also fought off the last ever invasion of Britain.

David Gaider wrote...

MisanthropePrime wrote...
The
Qunari may not care what "race" they are, but humanity might. And
considering that humans in Ferelden do indeed call Qunari giants, I
don't understand why we (this goes for the community primarily) cannot
refer to them as simply "giants", by the same logic that elves and
dwarves got their common names. This would get rid of any
ambiguity.

Terms such as "giant" or "oxman" are perjoratives.

The
only ones who care about being called "Qunari" are the Qunari
themselves-- specifically the Tal-Vashoth. They might also confuse the
issue by referring to non-Qunari converts as Qunari... which would
surprise anyone who thinks it's a racial term (which is most everyone).

But if you're saying "humans would try to classify them"... then, yes. They call their race "Qunari". That is not ambiguous.

It's amazing that people seem to focus on the terminology for the Qunari rather than the specifics of their philosophy/religion. Quite on the fence about them, because they seem like an inversion of Islam as it was practiced by the Ottomans, yet they're militant atheists instead. Being an atheist myself I should really be on their side but their methods are so precise and inflexible it's hard to care for them because they go against my more liberal Western upbringing where I'm taught that "anyone can be what they want to be and do what they want to" while the Qunari are more "you should be happy with what you are". Militant atheist communal fascists is how I suppose I'd describe them. Odd people.

Modifié par The Xand, 20 novembre 2013 - 03:52 .

[Vulpe]

The Xand wrote...

It's amazing that people seem to focus on the terminology for the Qunari rather than the specifics of their philosophy/religion. Quite on the fence about them, because they seem like an inversion of Islam as it was practiced by the Ottomans, yet they're militant atheists instead. Being an atheist myself I should really be on their side but their methods are so precise and inflexible it's hard to care for them because they go against my more liberal Western upbringing where I'm taught that "anyone can be what they want to be and do what they want to" while the Qunari are more "you should be happy with what you are". Militant atheist communal fascists is how I suppose I'd describe them. Odd people.

I tend to differ on the Ottoman part. If they would be like the Ottomans, they wouldn't be so strange to us as they are. They are kind off The Eastern world as a whole. They have elements that remind of the Ottomans like the integrating of the conquered populations into their society ( they are a "little" less tolerant than the ottomans were ). Their military code remindes me of the bushido code of the samurai. Their way of thinking seems similar with confucionism and they resemble the indiants with their caste system , only that in their case it's more a circle that's formed from each caste. Their boats seem to be a combination of the Japanese medieval fortress like ships, but their are not restricted to the mainland and are efficient on sea , like the athenian trireme.

They are a cocktail of The Orient. As I said, if they resembled a single oriental nation, they would lose some of their mistery and strangeness.

Because of this combination of elements, they seem stange to us and to our world, because they resemble and, at the same time, not resemble x or y . It ads to their mistery and to the alienness. The qunari are the equivalent of The East, not just one nation from it.  

Modifié par JulianWellpit, 20 novembre 2013 - 05:25 .

[Chari]

I call them kossiths, unless I want to specify what kind of kossith they are

[Thetford]

Out of all ideas proposed, I prefer the capitalised approach, as it is done in real life (earth, the soil, Earth the planet, moon the natural satellite, Moon the Earth's natural satellite), it's also important to note that it would be irrelevant what the Qunari call their race, as we are using the language of Thedas, like how Suomi, Deutschland and Österreich are referred to as Finland, Germany and Austria respectively, it would be unusual to refer to a foreign nation in its native language while speaking English (unless you are Poirot). I recall Sten saying how he has a name, just that human would not be able to pronounce it, the same could be said about their race.

[durasteel]

I am reminded of the debate on the SWTOR forums about the character Jicoln Cadera and the Crusader's Schism. Some people argued that, because these folks refused to follow the Mandalore, that they were not Mandalorians, and were in fact "dar'manda."

Others (myself included) pointed out that "dar'manda" is just something that Mandalorians call other Mandalorians that they really disagree with on certain important issues. To the rest of the Galaxy Far Far Away, they're all just Mandalorians. The term "dar'manda" has no more relevance to the average citizen of the Republic than the terms "tal-vashoth" or "kossith" have to the average denizen of Thedas.

If you ask a Ferelden what the Qunari call other Qunari that they consider heretics, or what the Qunari called themselves before they became Qunari, the answer would probably be "I don't know, and I don't care, just keep them all away from me, thanks."

Modifié par durasteel, 20 novembre 2013 - 06:38 .

[Heimdall]

The Xand wrote...
It's awesome how convoluted family histories can be. Think I had an ancestor beheaded in the Tower of London. For stealing sheep, presumably. Others were deported to Jamaica. Although my direct family seem pretty uninteresting, having only made it as far as Aberdeen from Inverness in like 3 centuries, while my dad's side seem to switch nationality every few generations going from proud Irish to prouder English to mee, proudest Scottish. Aha, funny that you've Campbell blood in you. They annexed my family's clan through marriage, creating the Campbell of Cawdor clan from Clan Calder. Ofc the upshot of that is that we got to fight on the winning side at Culloden Also fought off the last ever invasion of Britain.

Ah, I've always wanted to look up Campbell history.  I never seem to get around to it.  In my experience, there are a surprising number of Campbell descendants in the American northeast.  Don't ask me why and it might just be the circles I travel in, but every once in awhile I'll be talking to someone I don't even know has Scottish ancestry and somehow it will come out that they're descended from the Campbells.  Its weird.  Anyway, most of what I know about the distant family history is on the English side.  If my paternal grandfather is to be believed, one of my ancestors was a financial advisor to King Henry VIII.  Got himself beheaded, I guess Henry didn't like his advice.  Surprisingly, my paternal grandmother says her family is descended from the brother of one of King Henry VIII's wives.  Funny that.  Other than that, I know about the Dutch merchant and apparently I'm somehow related to a woman that disguised herself as a man to fight as a soldier during the American Revolution.

[legbamel]

Humans have a term for the Qunari. It's Qunari. They (in general) don't give a hang about cultural versus race and, I suspect, most would be quite surprised to discover that there are non-qunari followers of the Qun. I would be shocked to hear the average Thedosian give consideration to the whether or not any qunari were not a Qunari, as weel. The insistence that they be given another name when they've already got one that humans use without any consideration, just as they do elf and dwarf, baffles me.

That sais, I'd be a lot more sympathetic to the question were it couched in terms of history: what were the Qunari before they were Kossith? That's a legitimate lore question, as is whether dwarves, elves, and humans were always separate races.

[MisanthropePrime]

David Gaider wrote...

MisanthropePrime wrote...
The Qunari may not care what "race" they are, but humanity might. And considering that humans in Ferelden do indeed call Qunari giants, I don't understand why we (this goes for the community primarily) cannot refer to them as simply "giants", by the same logic that elves and dwarves got their common names. This would get rid of any ambiguity.

Terms such as "giant" or "oxman" are pejoratives.

The only ones who care about being called "Qunari" are the Qunari themselves-- specifically the Tal-Vashoth. They might also confuse the issue by referring to non-Qunari converts as Qunari... which would surprise anyone who thinks it's a racial term (which is most everyone).

But if you're saying "humans would try to classify them"... then, yes. They call their race "Qunari". That is not ambiguous.

Insofar as what the community calls them, "giant" is fine. So is "horned Qunari" (there's that adjective again, darn it) or even "kossith"-- the only difference is how well the use of your term will actually aid your communication with others. So long as you believe they'll understand what you're referring to, go ahead. If you're doing it just to be anal, without considering your audience, and then snidely deride anyone who doesn't understand your reference just because you think "Qunari" is too inexact... well, then you're likely to encounter problems. Don't blame me if you do.

How is "giant" pejorative, exactly?

[Abraham_uk]

Okay. I've got to admit it.

This is confusing. Really confusing.
Given the amount of complicated posts on a racial name, cultural name and religious name, is it really surprising that people get the terminology wrong.
I read more posts and get more confused.


I'll label them all Qunari (with exception to the ones that want to be known as Tal Vashoth).


The following is simple...

Dwarf = Dwarven Race
Human = Human Race
Elf = Elven Race

When it comes to Qunari:

Qunari = It's complicated...

Modifié par Abraham_uk, 20 novembre 2013 - 10:15 .

[Abraham_uk]

Let's face it.

If a member of the Bioware team has to explain to us what the term Qunari means, and that explanation manages to confuse more than it enlightens, then it's complicated.

[durasteel]

MisanthropePrime wrote...

How is "giant" pejorative, exactly?

To the Qunari, their size is normal. Calling them giants is as pejorative is it would be for them to call everyone else "midgets."

[Tremere]

Abraham_uk wrote...

Let's face it.

If a member of the Bioware team has to explain to us what the term Qunari means, and that explanation manages to confuse more than it enlightens, then it's complicated.

Indeed... And judging by my dialogue with Mr. Gaider, it was intended to be so. I'm not sure that I'm completely sold on the explanation or how it plays out in game, but I'm content to accept the writers intention.

[MisanthropePrime]

durasteel wrote...

MisanthropePrime wrote...

How is "giant" pejorative, exactly?

To the Qunari, their size is normal. Calling them giants is as pejorative is it would be for them to call everyone else "midgets."

I don't think the Qunari are that ignorant. They seem to have relatively advanced science so they know that they fall under the category of megafauna, and of the intelligent humanoid species they are clearly the largest.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

No, I am legitimately curious as to how the Qunari would speak that or any similar situation. I think any scenario where Qunari physiology is somehow pertinent to a dilemma would serve my point. Would another type of situation need to be said differently in Qunlat?

Given how different Qunari can be from other races,  I would imagine that might come up fairly often if Qunari have to account for the differing biolgical needs of their citizens. Human Qunari can't survive without water for as long as a Qunari Qunari, for instance.

I mean, even World of Thedas (since it is written in English, I guess) seems to struggle with how to refer to the giant horned guys. On one page it clearly explains how "Kossith" is an antiquated term that nobody uses and few even know, but on a later page it uses Kossith as the word to describe which race are mostly commonly members of the Tal'vashoth.

Wouldn't the mere mention of Sar-qamek be enough for the Qunari to know that only Qunari should be sent in to clean it up? It would be kind of redundant to ask for something that the reciever would already know was required.

[The Xand]

Abraham_uk wrote...

Let's face it.

If a member of the Bioware team has to explain to us what the term Qunari means, and that explanation manages to confuse more than it enlightens, then it's complicated.

How is it complicated to just call them Qunari?

[Abraham_uk]

The Xand wrote...

Abraham_uk wrote...

Let's face it.

If a member of the Bioware team has to explain to us what the term Qunari means, and that explanation manages to confuse more than it enlightens, then it's complicated.

How is it complicated to just call them Qunari?

Sure calling them all Qunari is less complicated but it's racist and could get you killed.
Tal Vashoth don't like being called "Qunari".

Modifié par Abraham_uk, 21 novembre 2013 - 12:53 .

[The Xand]

Abraham_uk wrote...

Not complicated but it's racist and could get you killed.
Tal Vashoth don't like being called "Qunari".

It's not racist and even the Tal Vashoth are defined by the Qun, having once been Qunari. Rebel Qunari are still Qunari of sorts. Like how Satanists are weird anti-Christians.

Modifié par The Xand, 21 novembre 2013 - 12:53 .