1192 réponses à ce sujet

[daveliam]

HiroVoid wrote...

Can we go on the assumption that it was the writers' intention that they had a certain sexuality that almost certainly won't change unless they find themselves in the position of being a companion?

Hm.  Maybe I'm not being clear in what I'm saying.  What I meant was:  Just because someone appears to be straight but is later revealed to be bisexual, that doesn't mean that their sexuality is "changing".  It just means that you were working under a different assumption and now understand it better.  That's what I meant.

If Morrigan (why are we talking about her in a male LI thread again?) were to specifically say that she's not interested in females, but later is a f/f LI, then that would be change in sexuality. 

Back to the male LI's, since Cullen hasn't ever said he's not interested in males and Bioware hasn't made a statement either way, then it wouldn't be a "change" in sexuality if he was revealed to be bi.  That was my point.

[AlexanderCousland]

Br3ad wrote...

Aside from Isabela, I didn't see any. Merrill being the prime example of player-sexuality. Anders is debatable, but only slightly as it was never actually brought up if you are female, and Fenris was your standard Cloud-clone-don't-care. He just hit on you the first chance he got, spending the rest of the time doing absolutely nothing.

Isabela<3 because she's the hottest. And I'd prefer someone like her in real life, I just wouldn't marry her...EVER.

Fenris. He broke the bro code with his "Had I known Anso would find me a Man so capable.." attempt on hitting on my character...he has been in his little mansion every playthrough since.

Anders was actually a pretty cool guy, until I found out about Karl...what happend to that guy who was hitting on the Warden recruit in Awakening? So sad...what they did with his entire character.

Sebastian, he's a cool guy...So I didn't mind him hitting on Bethany, too bad he's all "morally pure" now..we could have gone skirt chasing together at the Hanged Man. Damn...Isabela is the coolest guy in the game...lol

Merrill, oh my sweet little demon influenced goody two shoes...she was such a square. I made her the Wife, but only because the White clothes look better than the green ones.

[Thrillian]

Br3ad wrote...

Thrillho_82 wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

To be honest, I'm okay with bi-sexual LIs. It's player sexual that is kind of weird. At least give hints that they are bi-sexual without a certain gender of PC being there. A set sexuality, no matter what, is just something that should be seen.

The LIs are not neccesarily bi sexual. they are player sexual.  So dependant on the payer character, their sexuality may or may not change.  I don't personally see a problem with this, as it will provide the most options for every player, also who gives a crap what my personal preferances are and why should they be applied to another persons first player game?

Nah, it's cool that you want that, but it would also be nice if a character could be themself without my PC's glory controlling their every thought, action, and attraction. It's just kindda weird.

I am sorry, maybe I am slow, but I would greatly appreciate at what point your personal pc controlled every thought, action and attraction of the pc.  And if that has no relevance to your argument, I would appreciate that as well

[Icy Magebane]

@daveliam - All I'm saying is that if you look at the facts, and take into account the presence of an openly bisexual character, Morrigan actually being bisexual is highly unlikely. The writers had every opportunity to make her bi, and there was no apparent reason not to make her bi if she really was. No one here has given me reason to believe she is bi other than "Bioware made a mistake."

What we personally want from these characters should not be taken into account. We should only use the evidence at hand and attempt to draw logical conclusions based on our direct observations.

And just based on what I'm posting, let me remind people that my objection is to changing existing characters and not the playersexuality of all LIs (which I support).

daveliam wrote...
If Morrigan (why are we talking about her in a male LI thread again?) were to specifically say that she's not interested in females, but later is a f/f LI, then that would be change in sexuality. 

Actually, the original topic was supposed to be about female LIs for male PCs!  But the title was worded strangely and now the topic seems to have gotten away from the OP.

Modifié par Icy Magebane, 18 novembre 2013 - 05:31 .

[HiroVoid]

daveliam wrote...

HiroVoid wrote...

Can we go on the assumption that it was the writers' intention that they had a certain sexuality that almost certainly won't change unless they find themselves in the position of being a companion?

Hm.  Maybe I'm not being clear in what I'm saying.  What I meant was:  Just because someone appears to be straight but is later revealed to be bisexual, that doesn't mean that their sexuality is "changing".  It just means that you were working under a different assumption and now understand it better.  That's what I meant.

If Morrigan (why are we talking about her in a male LI thread again?) were to specifically say that she's not interested in females, but later is a f/f LI, then that would be change in sexuality. 

Back to the male LI's, since Cullen hasn't ever said he's not interested in males and Bioware hasn't made a statement either way, then it wouldn't be a "change" in sexuality if he was revealed to be bi.  That was my point.

But what do you believe the intentions of the writer were when writing those scenes when not including a specific sex for romance or flirts when the character was being written regardless of if something changes in later games?

[Thrillian]

Br3ad wrote...

Thrillho_82 wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

Thrillho_82 wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

To be honest, I'm okay with bi-sexual LIs. It's player sexual that is kind of weird. At least give hints that they are bi-sexual without a certain gender of PC being there. A set sexuality, no matter what, is just something that should be seen.

The LIs are not neccesarily bi sexual. they are player sexual.  So dependant on the payer character, their sexuality may or may not change.  I don't personally see a problem with this, as it will provide the most options for every player, also who gives a crap what my personal preferances are and why should they be applied to another persons first player game?

Nah, it's cool that you want that, but it would also be nice if a character could be themself without my PC's glory controlling their every thought, action, and attraction. It's just kindda weird.

I don't understand how what you described isn't possible.

No one has said that the PC's comapanions will be unable to voice their own opinion.  Also, I (in my pc) imagine that the PC will have some effect on the currect events surrounding it, and in this case, the inquisition will hopefully be able to put those in opposition into proper lock up... ie. jail;.

Because they don't. The characters change their attractions specifically for the player. Karl could very well have been Ander's lover, but as soon as FemHawke comes around he's already ready to move on. No more attraction to males, it's all FemHawke now. FemHawke is literally all he dreams about instead of the Call after that. No joke. He's being something for Hawke, not himself. 

Alright, what you describe are two different scenarios that are resolved based on different outcomes.

[daveliam]

Icy Magebane wrote...

@daveliam - All I'm saying is that if you look at the facts, and take into account the presence of an openly bisexual character, Morrigan actually being bisexual is highly unlikely. The writers had every opportunity to make her bi, and there was no apparent reason not to make her bi if she really was. No one here has given me reason to believe she is bi other than "Bioware made a mistake."

What we personally want from these characters should not be taken into account. We should only use the evidence at hand and attempt to draw logical conclusions based on our direct observations.

And just based on what I'm posting, let me remind people that my objection is to changing existing characters and not the playersexuality of all LIs (which I support).

I get what you are saying, but I don't think you are getting what I'm saying.  I could just as easily say to you that you haven't provided me any evidence that shows that she (or Cullen) are NOT bisexual.  I'm actually making the logical conclusion by stating that they are not gay (since they will romance/express interest in an opposite sex LI in DA: O), so they are either straight or bisexual.  Again, I agree that it's likely that Morrigan, specifically, is probably straight.  I'm just saying that it's not a CHANGE in sexuality to reveal someone to be bisexual, who you assumed was straight.

[daveliam]

HiroVoid wrote...

But what do you believe the intentions of the writer were when writing those scenes when not including a specific sex for romance or flirts when the character was being written regardless of if something changes in later games?

I can't say for sure.  I can assume that they intended him to be straight because they didn't offer a male Warden the option to flirt, but without hearing from the author directly, I can't say with certainty.  That's my point.

[Icy Magebane]

daveliam wrote...
I get what you are saying, but I don't think you are getting what I'm saying.  I could just as easily say to you that you haven't provided me any evidence that shows that she (or Cullen) are NOT bisexual.  I'm actually making the logical conclusion by stating that they are not gay (since they will romance/express interest in an opposite sex LI in DA: O), so they are either straight or bisexual.  Again, I agree that it's likely that Morrigan, specifically, is probably straight.  I'm just saying that it's not a CHANGE in sexuality to reveal someone to be bisexual, who you assumed was straight.

Sorry, I wrote that in response to the first post I saw from you, and I was actually more on board when I read the second.  I get what you're saying though... it's not outside the realm of possibility that Morrigan is interested in women, even if she did object to Leliana and was uninterested in any of the infinite variations of the Warden.  It's possible, but not probable, and not likely...

The reason that I would see a revelation like this as a change/retcon, is that... it just contradicts her previous behavior.  I mean, I'd need some kind of reason for why it was kept secret or left undisclosed in order to believe this.  I understand that people can change their minds on something like this, but it just seems incongrous with the character of Morrigan.  She didn't seem very picky about sleeping with a male Warden that she barely knew, yet wasn't interested in any females throughout the game...  I would really just need a good reason why there's so much... I don't want to say "evidence" again.  Why her behavior seems to convey a preference if she never had one.

Modifié par Icy Magebane, 18 novembre 2013 - 05:38 .

[HiroVoid]

daveliam wrote...

HiroVoid wrote...

But what do you believe the intentions of the writer were when writing those scenes when not including a specific sex for romance or flirts when the character was being written regardless of if something changes in later games?

I can't say for sure.  I can assume that they intended him to be straight because they didn't offer a male Warden the option to flirt, but without hearing from the author directly, I can't say with certainty.  That's my point.

Then you at least partially get writers' intentions.  While it's not always proof, it works very well to predict future events.  If we go by what the author had already made of the character from their previous appearance and how they were there, we can figure out what the author's intentions for that character was.  Sometimes, these intentions change when it comes to other reasons such as becoming a companion where the intentions for the character changes to match with the player's enjoyment as the protagonist.  As this is usually the only reason to go from the sexual preferences intentions to another intention for the character, I can safely assume that unless the character becomes a companion, they almost certainly won't change in this part of their character unless they become a companion.

[HiroVoid]

Icy Magebane wrote...

daveliam wrote...
I get what you are saying, but I don't think you are getting what I'm saying.  I could just as easily say to you that you haven't provided me any evidence that shows that she (or Cullen) are NOT bisexual.  I'm actually making the logical conclusion by stating that they are not gay (since they will romance/express interest in an opposite sex LI in DA: O), so they are either straight or bisexual.  Again, I agree that it's likely that Morrigan, specifically, is probably straight.  I'm just saying that it's not a CHANGE in sexuality to reveal someone to be bisexual, who you assumed was straight.

Sorry, I wrote that in response to the first post I saw from you, and I was actually more on board when I read the second.  I get what you're saying though... it's not outside the realm of possibility that Morrigan is interested in women, even if she did object to Leliana and was uninterested in any of the infinite variations of the Warden.  It's possible, but not probable, and not likely...

The reason that I would see a revelation like this as a change/retcon, is that... it just contradicts her previous behavior.  I mean, I'd need some kind of reason for why it was kept secret or left undisclosed in order to believe this.  I understand that people can change their minds on something like this, but it just seems incongrous with the character of Morrigan.  She didn't seem very picky about sleeping with a male Warden that she barely knew, yet wasn't interested in any females throughout the game...  I would really just need a good reason why there's so much... I don't want to say "evidence" again.  Why her behavior seems to convey a preference if she never had one.

Well, the reason she was so pushy on a male warden was to help make the DR decision lean her way at the end of the game.

I could see her using her sex appeal on both males and females if she feels it would gain her a better advantage, but that's because her want of power and position exceeds her sexual interest which can include males she has no interest in.

[KC_Prototype]

Thrillho_82 wrote...

KC_Prototype wrote...

Thrillho_82 wrote...

KC_Prototype wrote...

Thrillho_82 wrote...

All of the romance options will be available for the male protag. Sorry to burst anyones bubble, but as of yet we can deduce from various statements from developers that all of the LIs will be available to every protag. While some may feel this is unrealistic (who gives a crap?) the dev's have clearly indicated that they don't have the resources to develop an incredibly wide arrange of characters, so out of fairness what they do have access to will be player sexual. Boo hoo to those who are against it!

We'll when having a BI character make sense then go for it but it it's just to make everybody happy, it kinda cheapens the character. Hell, if they wanted to do that, then Samantha from ME3 should of been BI.

Can you please explain in great detail how exactly it "cheapens" the character?  I would genuinely like to know.  How does a character's personality change based on sexual preference?

It sort of ruins their personality. Think if they made Morrigan bi, her personality doesn't fit it but if they did just to make everybody happy then it would ruin her character.

I'm sorry but that in no way answers my question.  How exactly does it ruin their personality?   In what way does Morrigans personality not fit a bisexual person?  Is it possible that a persons Sexuality is entirely separate from their ideology?

Look at Morrigan in the threesome option in DA:I, she's not that open to trying new things and if she was made BI, it would take that aspect away from her personality.  Now lets use another character such as Varric, he expresses interest in women heavily and making him BI would throw off his character.

[Hellion Rex]

KC_Prototype wrote...

Thrillho_82 wrote...

KC_Prototype wrote...

Thrillho_82 wrote...

KC_Prototype wrote...

Thrillho_82 wrote...

All of the romance options will be available for the male protag. Sorry to burst anyones bubble, but as of yet we can deduce from various statements from developers that all of the LIs will be available to every protag. While some may feel this is unrealistic (who gives a crap?) the dev's have clearly indicated that they don't have the resources to develop an incredibly wide arrange of characters, so out of fairness what they do have access to will be player sexual. Boo hoo to those who are against it!

We'll when having a BI character make sense then go for it but it it's just to make everybody happy, it kinda cheapens the character. Hell, if they wanted to do that, then Samantha from ME3 should of been BI.

Can you please explain in great detail how exactly it "cheapens" the character?  I would genuinely like to know.  How does a character's personality change based on sexual preference?

It sort of ruins their personality. Think if they made Morrigan bi, her personality doesn't fit it but if they did just to make everybody happy then it would ruin her character.

I'm sorry but that in no way answers my question.  How exactly does it ruin their personality?   In what way does Morrigans personality not fit a bisexual person?  Is it possible that a persons Sexuality is entirely separate from their ideology?

Look at Morrigan in the threesome option in DA:I, she's not that open to trying new things and if she was made BI, it would take that aspect away from her personality.  Now lets use another character such as Varric, he expresses interest in women heavily and making him BI would throw off his character.

Actually, he only talks about Bianca romantically, no other women.

[daveliam]

HiroVoid wrote...

Then you at least partially get writers' intentions.  While it's not always proof, it works very well to predict future events.  If we go by what the author had already made of the character from their previous appearance and how they were there, we can figure out what the author's intentions for that character was.  Sometimes, these intentions change when it comes to other reasons such as becoming a companion where the intentions for the character changes to match with the player's enjoyment as the protagonist.  As this is usually the only reason to go from the sexual preferences intentions to another intention for the character, I can safely assume that unless the character becomes a companion, they almost certainly won't change in this part of their character unless they become a companion.

I think that this is why I'm perhaps a bit frustrated in this discussion.  I don't see it as a CHANGE in sexuality to reveal that a person who you thought was straight was actually not and was bisexual.  I agree that Cullen was probably written with the intention of being straight, but without either the character OR author saying explicitly that he is not interested in men, then it's not a CHANGE in sexuality to reveal that he is bisexual (and has been the entire time).

[TEWR]

Cassandra, Vivienne, Cullen, Varric, and Varric's Chest Hair will be the romance options.

The chest hair will affix itself to people randomly, assuming direct control and making them three times as sexy.

Imagine the Iron Bull with Varric's Chest hair.

No... imagine Cassandra with Varric's chest hair!

[Hellion Rex]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Cassandra, Vivienne, Cullen, Varric, and Varric's Chest Hair will be the romance options.

The chest hair will affix itself to people randomly, assuming direct control and making them three times as sexy.

Imagine the Iron Bull with Varric's Chest hair.

No... imagine Cassandra with Varric's chest hair!

Now I have to go wash my eyes out with iodine...jerk.<_<

[AlexanderCousland]

Well, the reason she was so pushy on a male warden was to help make the DR decision lean her way at the end of the game.

I could see her using her sex appeal on both males and females if she feels it would gain her a better advantage, but that's because her want of power and position exceeds her sexual interest which can include males she has no interest in.

Sounds like Morrigan, and eerily like alot of women. I have just been enlightened and saddened all at the same time.

[Hellion Rex]

FreshIstay wrote...

Well, the reason she was so pushy on a male warden was to help make the DR decision lean her way at the end of the game.

I could see her using her sex appeal on both males and females if she feels it would gain her a better advantage, but that's because her want of power and position exceeds her sexual interest which can include males she has no interest in.

Sounds like Morrigan, and eerily like alot of women. I have just been enlightened and saddened all at the same time.

Happily as a gay guy, I don't have to deal with any of that!!!
:wizard:

[Peer of the Empire]

They need to be hot

[Icy Magebane]

HiroVoid wrote...
Well, the reason she was so pushy on a male warden was to help make the DR decision lean her way at the end of the game.

I could see her using her sex appeal on both males and females if she feels it would gain her a better advantage, but that's because her want of power and position exceeds her sexual interest which can include males she has no interest in.

That raises another problem, though.  Why didn't she seduce a female Warden to gain greater favor and influence among the rest of the party?  Clearly it would have worked.  Plus, if the DR was on her mind, it might be in her best interest to block Alistair and the Warden from getting together, while simultaneously seducing the Warden.  By tricking the female Warden into falling in love, or at least having a sexual relationship with her, Morrigan would be able to convince the Warden to go along with the plan of making Alistair impregnate her.

LOL... this is is starting to sound like a soap opera...

[Hellion Rex]

can we drop the Morrigan tangent and get back on topic?

[Hellion Rex]

Grey Warden for LI anyone?

[daveliam]

eluvianix wrote...

Grey Warden for LI anyone?

Yes please.  WITH Varric's chest hair...!

[Icy Magebane]

KC_Prototype wrote...
Look at Morrigan in the threesome option in DA:I, she's not that open to trying new things and if she was made BI, it would take that aspect away from her personality.  Now lets use another character such as Varric, he expresses interest in women heavily and making him BI would throw off his character.

I think you meant DA:O and the Pearl, when the Warden meets Isabela?  If so then, what do you know?  Another case of Morrigan refusing to get into bed with a woman.  Are we seeing a pattern yet?

eluvianix wrote...

can we drop the Morrigan tangent and get back on topic?

I'd already posted when I noticed this, but yes, that's a good idea.  I'm done with this for now.

Modifié par Icy Magebane, 18 novembre 2013 - 05:55 .

[Hellion Rex]

daveliam wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Grey Warden for LI anyone?

Yes please.  WITH Varric's chest hair...!

It would be like Varric, but about 20x more ripped..