Mages are clearly trained in the way of stragety and tactics. Why *wouldn't* Irving be a generalish figure for mages?
The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Mages are clearly trained in the way of stragety and tactics. Why *wouldn't* Irving be a generalish figure for mages?
I don't buy that considering Wynne knew jack **** about Loghain ordering a tactical retreat from start to finish and only comes to relent later on.
Mages are trained in combat spells, but not tactics.
If they were trained in tactics, the Mages in Kirkwall would've made use of the funnel chokepoint and also bombarded the ships coming into the Gallows with their spells.
Aside from the dwarves maybe, I really wouldn't say any of them really have the same experience and expertise as Loghain has actually. Neither the elves or the werewolves have the numbers to really know anything about leading large numbers (and it's not just that elven leader who shows up. Other clans were called on.). Irving's a mage. At most, he's read up on tactics, but probably has no experience. Gregaior's probably more used to commanding small units. Eamon might be more qualified than the others, but I don't believe he really participated in the Orlesian War.The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
I'm doing the weird thing of assuming the armies you gathered came with their own generals.
Eh... I wouldn't count Irving as being a general. The Dwarves, definitely, but they're also only sending you half of their forces because politics get in the way (though it's still a lot, judging by the cutscene).
I wouldn't count Zathrian or Lanaya as being generals. Maybe lesser command ranks though.
Silfren wrote...
Alistair and the Warden don't know how to make new Wardens. The information doesn't become available to them until Riordan shows up, and even then it's a while before Riordan has access to the ingredients necessary. I would agree that if he had the time to make Loghain a Warden it stands to reason that he has time to make Wardens out of other people, but again, I think he only does it because right at that moment, Loghain is not in a position to refuse, so he seizes the opportunity to at least try to make one new Warden.
But otherwise, no, right just then at the Landsmeet, there's no guarantee that you'll have volunteers lining up. I don't think the nobles would be clamoring to join them, and forcing the issue isn't something the Wardens have time for just then. But neither are they in a position to go scouting the city for recruits.
Icy Magebane wrote...
Alistair resigning from the Grey Wardens when he doesn't get his way is completely dishonorable. Regardless of who gets added to what, he's willing to turn his back on fighting the Blight, which is the sole purpose of Grey Wardens. It's shameful, really. Even if it means sparing Loghain, he should be able to see past his hatred and perform his sworn duty.
I mean it's not like Darkspawn need master stragety. It's delay and kill
until you can reach archedemon then call that thing. This isn't master
tactican stuff. The darkspawn swarm.
Faerunner wrote...
Icy Magebane wrote...
Alistair is both selfish and self-righteous. He believes that his personal vendetta is more important than Ferelden, fighting the Blight, and everything the team has been working towards.
Loghain isn't exactly necessary to fighting the Blight. In fact, his track record doesn't exactly promote trustworthiness to his supposed allies or effectiveness in stopping the Blight.It's no surprise that he's willing to shatter the heart of someone he supposedly loves in order to fulfill his personal goals. I always execute him.
What personal goals? He doesn't want to be king. He hates the idea of being king. He tells everyone within earshot every opportunity he can and you still make him king anyway, with the implication that he needs to put his personal feelings aside (not wanting to be king) for the greater good (providing Ferelden the monarch they need). Guess what? He does just that. He puts his personal feelings aside (being with the woman he loves) for the greater good (marrying a woman the nobles approve of to give the kingdom the heirs they need to remain politically stable, while at the same time remaining faithful within said political marriage and not reducing the woman he loves to being the dirty mistress). You got what you wanted, but lost what you had, and you call him selfish and not a team player when you constantly use and discard him for whatever you think he should do at any given time?
Besides, you're willing to execute him because he disagrees with you. Think about that for a second.
Modifié par TheButterflyEffect, 18 novembre 2013 - 08:57 .
The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Mages are clearly trained in the way of stragety and tactics. Why *wouldn't* Irving be a generalish figure for mages?
I don't buy that considering Wynne knew jack **** about Loghain ordering a tactical retreat from start to finish and only comes to relent later on.
Mages are trained in combat spells, but not tactics.
If they were trained in tactics, the Mages in Kirkwall would've made use of the funnel chokepoint and also bombarded the ships coming into the Gallows with their spells.
Modifié par Ryzaki, 18 novembre 2013 - 08:57 .
Have you forgotten that the Joining is usually fatal? If you survive, your lifespan is shortened and you have to go where the Wardens tell you. Your normal life ends the moment you take a sip from that chalice. I doubt the Dalish would risk their Keeper and First on the chance that this might work, and they definitely wouldn't want them leaving the clan. Loghain was only even given this option as an alternative to execution for his crimes.Ryzaki wrote...
Mages are clearly trained in the way of stragety and tactics. Why *wouldn't* Irving be a generalish figure for mages? He'd know more about his people's abilities than anyone.
Doesn't mean they wouldn't send leaders to command their armies. Of course they'd defer to the Warden but for the most part I doubt the groups sent a bunch of soldiers without any people able to give strageties and orders.
Zathrian is a keeper (pretty sure they would know how to fight (gorilla style mind) Lanaya same thing.
I mean it's not like Darkspawn need master stragety. It's delay and kill until you can reach archedemon then call that thing. This isn't master tactican stuff. The darkspawn swarm.
The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Loghain at that point is not in a position to refuse, but the Wardens are not in a position to suddenly start invoking the Right of Conscription willy-nilly on powerful nobles.
To be fair, you've got a few people in-game that want to be Wardens. There's Seweryn in Orzammar. On powerful nobles? Probably not. On skilled warriors/thieves/mages? Probably.
Actually Wynne knew that Loghain did retreat. Did not Uldred get back to the Circle first to lie about it, only to have Wynne come and tell the truth?
It's the old debate about whether Loghain left the king behind or ordered a tactical retreat. Wynne believes he abandoned him rather than ordering a retreat. I'm more tempted to go with Loghain since his reason for abandoing the king was cut out of the game before release. Plus, he still stands by his decision to retreat when you take him back to Ostagar in the DLC. .....This whole debate could get really off-topic though.eluvianix wrote...
The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Mages are clearly trained in the way of stragety and tactics. Why *wouldn't* Irving be a generalish figure for mages?
I don't buy that considering Wynne knew jack **** about Loghain ordering a tactical retreat from start to finish and only comes to relent later on.
Mages are trained in combat spells, but not tactics.
If they were trained in tactics, the Mages in Kirkwall would've made use of the funnel chokepoint and also bombarded the ships coming into the Gallows with their spells.
Actually Wynne knew that Loghain did retreat. Did not Uldred get back to the Circle first to lie about it, only to have Wynne come and tell the truth?
This is a good point. Should we just start a new thread or something?eluvianix wrote...
Back to male romances, ladies and gentlemen?:innocent:
Icy Magebane wrote...
Have you forgotten that the Joining is usually fatal? If you survive, your lifespan is shortened and you have to go where the Wardens tell you. Your normal life ends the moment you take a sip from that chalice. I doubt the Dalish would risk their Keeper and First on the chance that this might work, and they definitely wouldn't want them leaving the clan. Loghain was only even given this option as an alternative to execution for his crimes.Ryzaki wrote...
Mages are clearly trained in the way of stragety and tactics. Why *wouldn't* Irving be a generalish figure for mages? He'd know more about his people's abilities than anyone.
Doesn't mean they wouldn't send leaders to command their armies. Of course they'd defer to the Warden but for the most part I doubt the groups sent a bunch of soldiers without any people able to give strageties and orders.
Zathrian is a keeper (pretty sure they would know how to fight (gorilla style mind) Lanaya same thing.
I mean it's not like Darkspawn need master stragety. It's delay and kill until you can reach archedemon then call that thing. This isn't master tactican stuff. The darkspawn swarm.
The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Actually Wynne knew that Loghain did retreat. Did not Uldred get back to the Circle first to lie about it, only to have Wynne come and tell the truth?
No, she believed Loghain turned his back on the battle to "betray his king", while Uldred was the one who informed the Circle of Loghain's tactical withdrawal.
Faerunner wrote...
TheButterflyEffect wrote...
Or if you decide to spare Loghain.
Which I never do.He only lied because he wanted to protect the PC, so the blame would fall back entirely on him, not them.
Doesn't matter. He still puts his warped sense of duty over his life and relationship with the PC, so he's not so different from Alistair that way. Blond human with a sense of duty who's all roses and love poems when you first get together, but who ultimately chooses his interpretation of duty over a life with you near the end of the game. Doesn't matter whether you agree with his reasons or decisions or not, he still does it.And Zevran does not betray you to the crows if you're in a relationship...
Maybe not (I don't know, I never got to that point without maximum friendship or romance), but you still have to cultivate approval to get into a relationship in the first place. And Fenris also does not turn against the mages if you're in a relationship. They're not so dissimilar is all I'm saying. Doesn't matter whether you like one but not the other, their traits are not so different.
Ryzaki wrote...
Mages are clearly trained in the way of stragety and tactics. Why *wouldn't* Irving be a generalish figure for mages? He'd know more about his people's abilities than anyone.
Doesn't mean they wouldn't send leaders to command their armies. Of course they'd defer to the Warden but for the most part I doubt the groups sent a bunch of soldiers without any people able to give strageties and orders.
Zathrian is a keeper (pretty sure they would know how to fight (gorilla style mind) Lanaya same thing.
I mean it's not like Darkspawn need master stragety. It's delay and kill until you can reach archedemon then call that thing. This isn't master tactican stuff. The darkspawn swarm.
Modifié par Silfren, 18 novembre 2013 - 09:00 .
Silfren wrote...
TheButterflyEffect wrote...
Well Alitair just dumped you like a piece of garbage, and whined constantly about you doing bad things. Anders, however, stuck by you in the end, no matter what. He also wasn't above doing a lot of morally questionable things (even besides blowing up the Chantry), and didn't criticize Hawke's darker actions so much. So, they weren't entirely the same.
Also, Zevran was a bazillion times more sane and a lot less whingy than Fenris. He was also a much more caring and attentive lover, who, again, stays by the PC's side through thick and thin.
Wow, you just refuse to let that go, don't you?
If you harden Alistair and convince him with the right words, he doesn't dump you. If you don't make him king, he doesn't dump you. And, lo! if you are a human noblewoman and propose marriage, the question of dumping you doesn't even come up.
But I find it amusing that you talk about Alistair being whiny and complaining about you doing bad things. I've read enough of your Alistair-dumped-me! rants that I think it's safe to say you only complain about those other things (his alleged whining, his taking issue with your behavior) because getting dumped soured you on him completely. You wouldn't care about his whining or anything else if not for that one little thing that you can't just can't get past.
Ryzaki wrote...
Wynne did know.
How do you know they're not trainted in tactics?
there would've been some successful rebellions as a result, and C) the Templars/Chantry/Circle had to get rid of Mages learning about how to handle weapons, I think it's evident.We've already established that Kirkwall dwellers IQ gets an automatic -100 modifier. That includes the mages.
The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Not when Archie Archibold is leading them. Then they employ tactics. The Archdemon had its forces invade the tower to delay the beacon and possibly blindside the forces fighting (probably picked up the strategy from the Wardens' minds).
That's only the tip of the iceberg.
And Zathrian's guerrilla style warfare, if he even knows any, isn't going to be of much use in a city that he's never explored before.
Before going into any deep detail: Why? What was Loghain's reason?eluvianix wrote...
The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Actually Wynne knew that Loghain did retreat. Did not Uldred get back to the Circle first to lie about it, only to have Wynne come and tell the truth?
No, she believed Loghain turned his back on the battle to "betray his king", while Uldred was the one who informed the Circle of Loghain's tactical withdrawal.
It wasn't tactical. It was betrayal, pure and simple.
eluvianix wrote...
The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Actually Wynne knew that Loghain did retreat. Did not Uldred get back to the Circle first to lie about it, only to have Wynne come and tell the truth?
No, she believed Loghain turned his back on the battle to "betray his king", while Uldred was the one who informed the Circle of Loghain's tactical withdrawal.
It wasn't tactical. It was betrayal, pure and simple.
The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
No she didn't. By calling it a "betrayal" and "willingly turning your back on your king" she's NOT saying it's a tactical withdrawal. In fact, her dialogue with Loghain is clear she doesn't view it as such.
Considering the Templars would A) be fools to do something like that,
1) You can't cherrypick. You can't say "Mages are clearly trained in X" and then say "Kirkwall doesn't count"
2) The Veil doesn't affect intelligence.
Retour en haut