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[ColorsFade]

I downloaded Ar Pharazon's cave roofs for external areas, and upon installing and attempting to use I ran into problems. After installing the .hak to my HAK directory and importing the .ERF, I got the wrong placeables. 

I figured, from the looks of things, they are MoTB or SoZ placeables. So I looked at the Placeables.2DA for Az Pharazon's HAK file and the 2DA for SoZ. 

The 2DA for SoZ. goes all the way to 2842. The 2DA for Az Pharazon's HAK starts around 2000 and goes to 2031. 

I want to make this work, so here's my theory (I don't quite understand 2DA files yet). 

I believe I can make a copy of the SoZ placeables.2DA and APPEND the 2DA entries for Az Pharazon's HAk and it will work. Is that correct? Or.. do I need to do something else? 

Any help appreciated. 

 

[andysks]

Yes. You can only have one of them. You need to merge them, although I don't really know how. I think there are tools for it. When I needed them, Bealzebub did it for me (The hero!).

[PJ156]

If you grab Kanbyens placeable 2da off the vault

http://nwvault.ign.c...id=175654&id=56

You will find that set (cave roofs) and many more already organised for you some with utps. Or you can have mine which is work in prgress but does the same thing. Mine is structured differently to Kanbyens though it is based on his (her) work. Mine has a lot more utps built though I have a few hundred still to do

PJ

[kevL]

am looking forward to it, PJ. take yer time

[Morbane]

ColorsFade wrote...

I believe I can make a copy of the SoZ placeables.2DA and APPEND the 2DA entries for Az Pharazon's HAk and it will work. Is that correct? Or.. do I need to do something else? 

Any help appreciated. 

 

Yes - appending anything in the placeables.2da to the SoZ placeables.2da will work fine - provided that you have not used the new plcs yet.

As for blueprints (utp) you'd have to make your own.

Kamal_'s option would preclude this need of utp generation as the reserved ranges would be respected - presumably - and the utps provided would work.

[Morbane]

i have just been appending away - caring in no way for reserved ranges - but im kind of negligent in that way thinking that no one will ever use my 2das because i am isolating individual plcs rather than using an entire set.

[andysks]

We believe in you PJ .

[ColorsFade]

@Morbane Question then: If I append to the placeables.2DA, do I have to do anything to the UTP files, or will they "just work" once the 2DA is updated?

I'm not seeing all the parts fit together here yet. I want to understand this stuff.

[PJ156]

If you simply append the line you will need to either create new utp files or modity the stock ones provided to see the model at it's new location.

As Morb says, if you want to limit the size of your hak you could note which mdbs you add and only place the ones you have used into your hak along with the associated dds files. You can see those using the MDB cloner.

PJ

[ColorsFade]

So PJ, when you say the size of "my" HAK, what do you mean by that exactly? I don't have a HAK file yet. Let me see if I understand...

This is going to bring up a larger question, I think, about how to handle packaging my mod and 3rd party content.

I understand the concept of the HAK file (I think). It's basically an archive, and you can have all sorts of game-related files in there, from 2DA's to UTP's to whatever.

When I go to package my campaign and modules for release, it is my understanding that I need to package any non-default 3rd party stuff into a HAK. So if I use RWS's wizard tower 5 in a module, for instance, I need to include the UTP file of that wizard tower into my own HAK so that it shows up in the area when users run my game.

And if I want to be conscious of the size of my own mod (because smaller is better), then I should ONLY include the UTP's that I actually use in my mod, and get rid of the rest. Thus, I would not include the UTP's for wizard towers 1 through 4 and number 6. Since I didn't use those.

Is that the general idea?

Second question: is the Placeables.2DA file then ONLY necessary for building, right? I only need that file so the toolset knows how to find those placeables in the menu. Is that correct?

Or do I need to distribute the placeables.2DA with my HAK as well?

Thanks for walking me through this one folks. Trying to get my head wrapped around it.

[andysks]

Well, concerning the towers, it is possible. But if you use a hak like City Hak, with 500 placeables or so, or some with no clear names for every file, it is tough to exclude/include files. I think this is the reason PJ is making what he makes. With the utp files you will be able to use just one tree for example, and not the whole package.

I downloaded a package the other day, not with placeables but armor. Hex Armory it was called.
Now, I liked their models, but not all armors. They have two types of every armor. One only model, and one enchanted. The enchanted ones were too powerful for my taste, so why should I have them.

All I do, is open the hak with the packer, and choose the mdb/dds I need, then extract it in a folder my campaign folder. Most of the time, the hak size is reduced by half like that.

About the placeables, PJ told me one time that utp files are just for building. The haks with placeables only contain mdb and dds. At least the ones I have. The utps are sitting in my override, and they are only needed for building.

So, the only haks I use in my campaign, like haks, is actually the City Hak, because it was too big to shorten, I only needed it in one module, so I assigned it to that module. The placeables.2da has the city hak included, and sits in my campaign folder. Still, I am not sure if needs distribution.

Also, I am sure PJ or someone can explain things more... scientifically. I only speak from my experience, and I still might be wrong in some things .

Modifié par andysks, 18 novembre 2013 - 07:39 .

[ColorsFade]

Well, as frustrated as you were with the scripting Andy, I am equally frustrated now. I don't understand how any of this works. 
I decided to try and download the Master Placeables from here. I tried to follow the instructions, but I cannot make it work. 

I took the placeables.2DA and put that in my override. I took the UTP files from that download and put them in my module folder. 

In the toolkit menu, under User Created -> Arpharazon -> cave roof, the text for the various cave roof parts show up. However, when I select one and try and place it in the toolkit, I see nothing. 

I also get a text error after a few seconds. Something about the string format. I looked in the 2DA and it might be because there is a "!" sign in front of each of those entries. I don't know why that is there. 

I then added the HAK file from the original cave roof download, because it contains all the MDB files. So I added that as a HAK dependency on the module, saved, exited, and restarted the toolset. Still nothing shows when I try and place one of those cave roofs. 

I'm unsure what to do next. I wish I understood how all these pieces work together, and what you need for building and what you must have for deployment to the end user. 

[andysks]

Try the opposite. 2da in module folder and utp in override. I don't know if it will make difference, but I use it like that and it works. If it's any near the confusion I had, then I know it's a lot. But it will resolve itself somehow, like mine did .

[ColorsFade]

andysks wrote...

Try the opposite. 2da in module folder and utp in override. I don't know if it will make difference, but I use it like that and it works.

Didn't change anything. 

I thought I might just try and change the visuals one-by-one on each blueprint, but even that didn't work. When I select the blueprint (which has no visual component) and I try and change the visual part in the property pane, I cannot even find the appropriate visuals. 

The 2DA records for these cave parts all start as !CliffRoof_

I can't find that in the list of visuals anywhere. 

It's like this 2DA isn't even being read, no matter where I put it. Override, module, campaign... it's just not showing up. 

[Morbane]

CF - for a hak to work what you need is the model & textures (MDB & dds/tga respectively) and 2das

utp are the blueprints - these dont need to be packaged - "builder only"

the utp are intended to work with specific 2da rows - if they dont match or are from different kits - they wont work

for a hak to be recognised in a module you associate it save, exit, restart - check it is there in module properties

if the blueprints arent working - my opinion is they rarely do - select one and find the appearance - that should work - i just resort to making my own because all those utps just clutter things up

the bad rows in the 2da are likely from the creator using quotes in the first column in the attempt to have a space in the appearance name - unfortunately you need to go through all thos and remove the quotes and spaces - then it should be ok

hak size relies on the number of models you add - the utps are small and unneeded as i said before - that is why i add only what i need and make my own blueprints - to save space and keep my head sane

[PJ156]

[edit] I was typing at the same time as Morbane it seems, sorry for overlap.


I will check but I think what is happeneing is the hak contains a 2da. That is overiding the one in the override folder and you do not have all the bits and bobs lined up correctly. When you get the string error I believe it is because you were missing the .mdb file (the model) - see below.

This is a three piece puzzle; to get a new piece of content in you will need:

1. the placeables 2da
2. the mdb file for the item (this is the model) and the dds (or tga) file for the item (this is the wrapper for the model. 
3. the UTP file which is the blueprint for putting the mdel into the tooset.

The 2da can go in the overide campaign or module folder or a hak. The lower down the pecking order it goes the more likely another will over write it. Hak over rides the campaign or module which over rides the override folder.

The mdb and dds files can go into the same places. but better in a hak.

The utp can go in the override, it is only needed for buidling and is clutter anywhere else.

Start out with the Hak. You need to open it using nwn2packer and have a look see. It will contain .mdb and .dds file which are the model ref files. You need all those undisturbed in the hak so leave them be. See if there is a 2da in there (and I suspect there is). If there is take it out, you don't need that. Then you put the hak in the hak folder and associate it with the module. Save the module and close it.

Put the placeable 2da file from kanbyens site into the campaign folder (module if you are not using a campaign though you will find it much easier to do this stuff if you do.

If the download came with utp's put them in your override but see the note below.

Open the module and you will see the new blueprints there. Try one in the module and, if you are lucky, you will find it is set up right.

Note that the utp is all grey text. That means it is in a fiolder that is not your module folder or campaign folder. If you create a campaign blueprint the utp appears in the campaign folder and it will be in underlined grey text. If you create a module blueprint it will be in your module folder and will be in bold black text. If you want to modify a utp file it must be in either the campaign or module folder as you cannot modify a grey text utp, it must be either bold black or underlined.

If you find the utp is not giving you a model in the toolset you will need to reassign it. It means it is looking for a model on another line on the 2da. Some come out blank and some may show another model. Either way it is the same problem. 

You can do one of three things at this stage.

1. create a new blueprint by copying one that came with the set or
2. create a new blueprint or
3. move the blueprint that came with the set to your campaign folder temporarily.

Two should be your last option as you will lose the part of the blueprint that organises it, better to at least use some of the work done for you. If you use 3 you only need one blueprint, done put them all over delete them, you will see why when you come to create your new ones (see below).

Open the blueprint in the properties window and open the drop down menu on the very top line (appearance I think). Now you need to find the blueprint name in the list. this will be the model names that appears on the 2da for that model. Double click that and try the blueprint in game. If all is well you should see it now.

You will have to do this for each object you use. The most convenient way to do this is to find the first in the list and associate that with a blueprint. Copy that blueprint and you will find that when you look up the model it will be the next on the list, you can create that blueprint copy and continue until you have all the blueprints created.

I hope that makes sense. If not post back and I will come about it another way.

PJ

Modifié par PJ156, 18 novembre 2013 - 09:24 .

[Morbane]

duplicate 2da - as PJ mentioned - always cause trouble

for your utp - create a subfolder in the override just for them - much neater

in fact create a subfolder for each filetype -

dont create a hak until you have everything you need - to cumbersome to pck/unpack all the time

hope this add a bit of sense to your effort

extra content is just necessary

[ColorsFade]

Got it working. 
I have used some RWS stuff in the past from the All-In-One HAK. There is a rws_all_in_one_2da.hak file that contains several 2DA files, including a placeables 2DA. That was overriding the Master Placeables 2DA file in my override directory. 
I extracted, via Tani's Packer, all the 2DA files from the rws_all_in_one_2da.hak file, and then re-packed it WITHOUT the placeables.2DA file. Then I reloaded my toolkit and it worked. 

So my question is... when it comes time to redistribute this, what is going to be the best approach? What files do I need to include? 

It sounds to me like the .UTP blueprint files are NOT necessary for redistribution; that they are only necessary for building. Are the .MDB files the necessary files then? 

And from the looks of things, what you really want to do is only include .MDB files for blueprints that you actually used in your area. Everything else is just wasted bytes. 

[Morbane]

necessary for distribution:

mdb
dds
tga
2da
custom sound files
custom vfx
ncs

theres a few more but i have to get off to work now

[PJ156]

You need the mdbs and associated dds, the hard part about splitting things up is associating the two. You need mdb cloner to open the file and find the assciated files then extract them.

That said it is worth it to not have a whol;e pile of unused guff in the hak.

PJ

[ColorsFade]

You rock PJ. Thanks. I'm still digesting your post, but that's great information.

So one thing is cleared up for me: UTP files are for building only, and I need to just put those in the override and leave them be. I do NOT want to redistribute them because they aren't necessary and are clutter and will make my mod bigger than it needs to be.

The MDB files ARE necessary, and what I should do is take the ones that I actually use in my campaign and wrap them up into a .HAK file. That gives me a tight redistributable and also they are then available for use in the toolkit when I associate the .HAK with my module.

Of course, when I'm building, I'm not sure which things I want to use yet. So in that case I need to include the original author's .HAK file, BUT with the caveat to always check for a placeables.2DA file inside their .HAK file, and if it exists, then remove it. Later on I can create my own .HAK and include only the files I need, thus streamlining everything.

Phew... brain overload. Lots to take in. I'll have to annotate this in my files so I remember for next time.

Appreciate it guys!

[ColorsFade]

PJ,

When I open the Cave Roof .erf with Tanis, all it has are three file types:

MDB, UTP, and the one placeables.2DA.

So where are the DDS files? Or are there none? And is that a big deal?

I'm trying to think ahead to redistribution now.

[Dann-J]

They might use textures already existing in the game.

[Morbane]

it might use a stock texture - mdbcloner will tell you for sure

[PJ156]

With those it is almost certainly stock.

One thing I am building is an excel version of the 2da (it's easier to mod them that way) You can have that now is you wish. The way to use it is to use the column I have put into it and put a 1 next to any model you use. When you are finished sort the table for 1's and you have a complete list of the models you have used.

That will help in the sorting process.

PJ