304 réponses à ce sujet

[nos_astra]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...
Did you ever stop and consider what the circumstances behind their actions were? The psychology of the Geth, the technological maturity of the Geth, etc. 

As I recall, the Geth were being hunted to extinction themselves. Are you proposing that the Geth simply lie back and accept death?

Geth are not human. The geth were scheduled to be shut down. Shutting them down only very roughly translates to (what humans understand and fear as permanent) death.

Just because the geth want to avoid being shut down doesn't mean they panicked or were scared. The geth are not human and don't feel like we do. To slap on human characteristics to make them more relatable is actually an insult to one of the few smarter ideas in Mass Effect.

Given the nature and alien-ness of the geth I don't see how the quarian's reaction is less understandable and more wrong than the geth's reaction.

An interesting and complex dilemma dumbed down to a simple black-and-white issue. That's Mass Effect.

Modifié par klarabella, 18 novembre 2013 - 10:33 .

[Sir DeLoria]

Obadiah wrote...

klarabella wrote...

Obadiah wrote...
I don't know why that's your perception of the Morning War. In ME3 the Quarians seem perfect OK with arming their civilians, man, woman and child, and sending them to fight. They got killed because they lost.

Beyond being of the same species, what do the Morning War quarians have to do with the ME3 quarians?

Merely pointing out that the interpretation put forward of how the Morning War was fought is based on assumption of how the Quarians behaved.

Huh? You mean how a part of the Quarian leadership behaved, perhaps. Even if a government does terrible things, killing the civilians under that government is still murder. Unlike your beloved Geth, the Quarians aren't a hive mind.

[Ryzaki]

Edit: Nope nope nope nope. RESSSSIT MUST RESIST.


Also ME2 and ME3 make it pretty damn clear the Geth aren't a complete hivemind. They come to different conclusions and then vote on it.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 18 novembre 2013 - 10:35 .

[Sir DeLoria]

Ryzaki wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

I'm debating whether to stay neutral here or to jump in. What to do, what to do.

Heh. I'm so tired of geth quarian debates at this point.

Thankfully the game allows me to laugh as those idiot quarians kill themselves with their warmongering and I can still get my best destroy ending. That's enough for me!

All those fools had to do was wait til after the war was over and they'd had their planet. But nooooo ah well too bad so sad.

Yeah, I'm sure humans would never try to reclaim their homeworld after 300 years of exile when they had the perfect chance. Noooo way.

[Br3admax]

Ravensword wrote...

osbornep wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

Why wasn't there a kill both option? I know that we could save both, but why couldn't we kill boh?

I guess the writer's assumed that no Shepards would be dumb enough to want to shoot themselves in the foot that badly; to go through all that trouble only to end up with no new fighting forces to bring to bear against the Reapers would be a bit of a waste. Although perhaps you mean that there should have been an option to get both killed by virtue of Shepard's sheer incompetence (say, if you made enough dumb decisions previously, etc.).

There's a remedy for that: just promote a bunch of MP characters. Boom. Problem solved.

But my N7 will go too high. I'm not a scrub, Raven. 

Modifié par Br3ad, 18 novembre 2013 - 10:36 .

[Dextro Milk]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Well, what other justification do you have for claiming the Geth suck? You're not providing a support for your argument, and you've argued in the past that you love the Quarians unconditionally, primarily based on your reaction to Tali.

First off, my first post in this thread was more along the lines of a joke, because this topic has been discussed to death and everyone already knows why I dislike the geth. Second, this has nothing to do with Tali whatsoever.

So why do the Geth suck? Why do they deserve to die?

I already told you why I thought so.

Did you ever stop and consider what the circumstances behind their actions were? The psychology of the Geth, the technological maturity of the Geth, etc.

Yes I have. And that still doesn't excuse killing billions of people. If some mentally ill person started gunning people down in a public place because someone tried to hurt him, does that give him a free pass to kill everyone in the room simply because he is not able to reason as well as the rest of us?

As I recall, the Geth were being hunted to extinction themselves. Are you proposing that the Geth simply lie back and accept death?

There was a point when it stopped being "self-defense".

There is a difference between the quarian people and the quarian gevernment.

Not really. Not to the Geth who are in an a collectively feral state brought upon by severely decreased mental capability to reason due to the Quarians attacking the Geth out of fear of Synthetics that is more or less irrational.

Yes there is a difference to the quarian people and the quarian government/military. A difference the geth conveniently seem to not understand. The geth knew full well who they were killing, and they weren't all soldiers. The geth unit in Legion's mission in ME3 seemed to understand how to defend his "bros" and even wanted to defend his "master", yet all of a sudden they can't tell the difference?

Modifié par Dextro Milk, 18 novembre 2013 - 10:38 .

[Ryzaki]

Necanor wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

I'm debating whether to stay neutral here or to jump in. What to do, what to do.

Heh. I'm so tired of geth quarian debates at this point.

Thankfully the game allows me to laugh as those idiot quarians kill themselves with their warmongering and I can still get my best destroy ending. That's enough for me!

All those fools had to do was wait til after the war was over and they'd had their planet. But nooooo ah well too bad so sad.

Yeah, I'm sure humans would never try to reclaim their homeworld after 300 years of exile when they had the perfect chance. Noooo way.

I'd hope we wouldn't be stupid or idotic enough to do when a far greater enemy is coming forward and send someone who could've been an ally that we didn't even try to use diplomatic means (despite having a respresentive of our people saying they were open to discussion) running straight into a our far stronger foe giving them even more power than they already had.

They pretty much went the dumbest way of reclaiming their planet possible and I laugh when they blow up over rannoch and then the geth end up gone in destroy and their planet ends up a wasteland. Fools should've ****ing waited.

[Ryzaki]

Cthulhu42 wrote...

Speaking of this topic, I wanted the option for a badass one-liner while shooting Legion in the face. Something like "You were a toaster, but now you're just toast" or "This is for Jenkins" or "Domo arigato, bitch".

I want to so something other than that TALI NOOOO when she jumps off the cliff. Alas.

"You can't pick the Geth over my people!"

"Oh rly?" 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 18 novembre 2013 - 10:38 .

[Br3admax]

Cthulhu42 wrote...

Speaking of this topic, I wanted the option for a badass one-liner while shooting Legion in the face. Something like "You were a toaster, but now you're just toast" or "This is for Jenkins" or "Domo arigato, bitch".

"There was a hole alright, through the back of your skull!" 

[Obadiah]

Necanor wrote...

Obadiah wrote...

klarabella wrote...

Obadiah wrote...
I don't know why that's your perception of the Morning War. In ME3 the Quarians seem perfect OK with arming their civilians, man, woman and child, and sending them to fight. They got killed because they lost.

Beyond being of the same species, what do the Morning War quarians have to do with the ME3 quarians?

Merely pointing out that the interpretation put forward of how the Morning War was fought is based on assumption of how the Quarians behaved.

Huh? You mean how a part of the Quarian leadership behaved, perhaps. Even if a government does terrible things, killing the civilians under that government is still murder. Unlike your beloved Geth, the Quarians aren't a hive mind.

What makes you think the Quarians didn't follow thier leadership in the Morning War? Seems to me the Geth memories show the Quarians purging their population of people who didn't want to fight.

[Br3admax]

Ryzaki wrote...

Necanor wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

I'm debating whether to stay neutral here or to jump in. What to do, what to do.

Heh. I'm so tired of geth quarian debates at this point.

Thankfully the game allows me to laugh as those idiot quarians kill themselves with their warmongering and I can still get my best destroy ending. That's enough for me!

All those fools had to do was wait til after the war was over and they'd had their planet. But nooooo ah well too bad so sad.

Yeah, I'm sure humans would never try to reclaim their homeworld after 300 years of exile when they had the perfect chance. Noooo way.

I'd hope we wouldn't be stupid or idotic enough to do when a far greater enemy is coming forward and send someone who could've been an ally that we didn't even try to use diplomatic means (despite having a respresentive of our people saying they were open to discussion) running straight into a our far stronger foe giving them even more power than they already had.

They pretty much went the dumbest way of reclaiming their planet possible and I laugh when they blow up over rannoch and then the geth end up gone in destroy and their planet ends up a wasteland. Fools should've ****ing waited.

What happens to space ships when the Reapers find them? Where are the Reapers? Can the quarians still buy supplies to keep their ships active? Think about all this while you are condeming species to their deaths. 

[RatThing]

Cthulhu42 wrote...

Speaking of this topic, I wanted the option for a badass one-liner while shooting Legion in the face. Something like "You were a toaster, but now you're just toast" or "This is for Jenkins" or "Domo arigato, bitch".

"How many gunshots does it take to turn off that lightbulb?"

Modifié par RatThing, 18 novembre 2013 - 10:41 .

[Ryzaki]

Br3ad wrote...
What happens to space ships when the Reapers find them? Where are the Reapers? Can the quarians still buy supplies to keep their ships active? Think about all this while you are condeming species to their deaths. 

They do this magical thing called retreating via Mass Relays. The Reapers movements are known. (Not to mention the Reapers are mostly attacking systems with large population centers). Protheans played cat and mouse with the Reapers for centuries.

Also you think them landing on a planet is superior given how laughably pathetic their ground troops are?  Them going to Rannoch would probably get them killed faster. Reapers now have a target to hit (they don't have to guess where the Quarian fleet might be or retreat to). Species with armies used to combat were losing millions of people per day. Quarians got 19 million people? They'd been screwed. Plus one Reaper agent poisoning their supplies would've crippled the entire populace. A few Sovie class Reapers would've pretty much destroyed Rannoch.

As for buying supplies there's scavenging (which they're already good at) and the Citadel (now they might've been boned when the Citadel was taken by the Reapers but everyone was boned at that point). They make their food on their fleets already and ruins from places the Reapers already destroyed would've provided them with more material.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 18 novembre 2013 - 10:44 .

[Sir DeLoria]

@Massively

It doesn't matter in what state the Geth collective mind was, murder is murder, genocide is genocide. You compared their state of mind to that of a wild animal going rampage, well that animal needs to be put down.

[Dextro Milk]

Curse this topic lol, Massively go ahead and give your counter argument to my post. I'm not in the mood to debate tonight... I really need to stay out of these topics lol...

[AresKeith]

Ryzaki wrote...

Necanor wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

I'm debating whether to stay neutral here or to jump in. What to do, what to do.

Heh. I'm so tired of geth quarian debates at this point.

Thankfully the game allows me to laugh as those idiot quarians kill themselves with their warmongering and I can still get my best destroy ending. That's enough for me!

All those fools had to do was wait til after the war was over and they'd had their planet. But nooooo ah well too bad so sad.

Yeah, I'm sure humans would never try to reclaim their homeworld after 300 years of exile when they had the perfect chance. Noooo way.

I'd hope we wouldn't be stupid or idotic enough to do when a far greater enemy is coming forward and send someone who could've been an ally that we didn't even try to use diplomatic means (despite having a respresentive of our people saying they were open to discussion) running straight into a our far stronger foe giving them even more power than they already had.

They pretty much went the dumbest way of reclaiming their planet possible and I laugh when they blow up over rannoch and then the geth end up gone in destroy and their planet ends up a wasteland. Fools should've ****ing waited.

Yea, trying to reclaim your homeworld when the Reapers are invading made me facepalm at the Quarians

Plus the fact that I advised them to not do it back in ME2

[AresKeith]

Also topics like this are pointless because of overly bias people

*not trying to point fingers*

[Br3admax]

Ryzaki wrote...

Br3ad wrote...
What happens to space ships when the Reapers find them? Where are the Reapers? Can the quarians still buy supplies to keep their ships active? Think about all this while you are condeming species to their deaths. 

They do this magical thing called retreating via Mass Relays. The Reapers movements are known. (Not to mention the Reapers are mostly attacking systems with large population centers). Protheans played cat and mouse with the Reapers for centuries.

Ships don't run on air. They need fuel, supplies, the likes, and it takes almost an entire day to move the entire Migrant Fleet.

Also you think them landing on a planet is superior given how laughably pathetic their ground troops are?  Them going to Rannoch would probably get them killed faster. Reapers now have a target to hit (they don't have to guess where the Quarian fleet might be or retreat to). Species with armies used to combat were losing millions of people per day. Quarians got 19 million people? They'd been screwed. Plus one Reaper agent poisoing their supplies would've crippled the entire populace. A few Sovie class Reapers would've pretty much destroyed Rannoch.

It takes longer to depopulate a planet than it does to shoot a beam of molten metal through a few ships that can't move. 

[Sir DeLoria]

Ryzaki wrote...

I'd hope we wouldn't be stupid or idotic enough to do when a far greater enemy is coming forward and send someone who could've been an ally that we didn't even try to use diplomatic means (despite having a respresentive of our people saying they were open to discussion) running straight into a our far stronger foe giving them even more power than they already had.

They pretty much went the dumbest way of reclaiming their planet possible and I laugh when they blow up over rannoch and then the geth end up gone in destroy and their planet ends up a wasteland. Fools should've ****ing waited.

You laugh at the death of 17 million civilians? At the death of infants and children? All because of the decision of three dumb leaders? Wow mate, you're a bit vile aren't you?

Imagine the US had three dumb politicians start a war with a far more powerful enemy. Do you think America would deserve total annihilation and all its citizens would deserve to die?

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Br3ad wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...
Not the same thing, not even close. In ME2, I'll kill a merc who tries to kill me. I don't then make it my business to hunt down his wife, daughter and grandfather and kill them too.

Or to put it another way, you're in a building full of people with a gun, you're attacked by another person in the building with a gun and kill him. Justifiable. If you then kill everyone else in the building who can't get away from you fast enough, it ceases to be self-defense.

Remember how Legion stated that the Geth were collectively in their mental and psychological-equivalent infancy? They were more akin to a wild animal that had been actively attacked and chased and is striking back in self-defence. The result was the Geth equivalent of the 'fight or flight/freeze' reaction. The Geth could not flee as the Quarians were assaulting them. As more Geth were destroyed the reduced mental capacity caused the Geth to act more on instinct and lash back in panicked fury to protect themselves.

It's been three hundred years and they are still doing the same thing.

Well, the actions and statements made by organics and their own very negative experience with them in the past haven't inspired confidence in the Geth and organics. They're more interested in being an isolationist observers who, while interested by organics, have no desire to be under their influence. They have a deep-seated distrust in organics, which is why I believe they violently attack any expedition or force that enters their region of space.

And they haven't become less intelligent sense then.

No they haven't. They've gotten much more intelligent. But this isn't a debate about the intellectual capacity of the Geth during the 300 year isolation. This is a talk about why the Geth had decided to maintain their isolation, with offensive means and capability.

I will admit that the quarians deserved all that came to them, bu I'm not going to pretend that the geth are somehow not to blame for their actions either.

To be honest, I really don't think the Geth are guilty at all. What judgement can you apply to something that was acting essentially as a provoked and cornered wild animal? And can you really blame the Geth for violently maintaining their own isolation in the face of percieved organic deviousness? They see how synthetics are treated and realized in the Organic galaxy, and this isn't easily juxtaposed against courier and civilian vessels that request peace. 

Besides, destroying platforms does not even kill the geth that use them, and the heretics that left didn't make them any less intelligent. 

As I said, this isn't a question about the intelligence of the Geth.

[Ryzaki]

AresKeith wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Necanor wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

I'm debating whether to stay neutral here or to jump in. What to do, what to do.

Heh. I'm so tired of geth quarian debates at this point.

Thankfully the game allows me to laugh as those idiot quarians kill themselves with their warmongering and I can still get my best destroy ending. That's enough for me!

All those fools had to do was wait til after the war was over and they'd had their planet. But nooooo ah well too bad so sad.

Yeah, I'm sure humans would never try to reclaim their homeworld after 300 years of exile when they had the perfect chance. Noooo way.

I'd hope we wouldn't be stupid or idotic enough to do when a far greater enemy is coming forward and send someone who could've been an ally that we didn't even try to use diplomatic means (despite having a respresentive of our people saying they were open to discussion) running straight into a our far stronger foe giving them even more power than they already had.

They pretty much went the dumbest way of reclaiming their planet possible and I laugh when they blow up over rannoch and then the geth end up gone in destroy and their planet ends up a wasteland. Fools should've ****ing waited.

Yea, trying to reclaim your homeworld when the Reapers are invading made me facepalm at the Quarians

Plus the fact that I advised them to not do it back in ME2

Yeah it's like "Wow look at how every other species homeworld is being attacked by the Reapers! We've been left alone for some reason! Might be a good time to get a home planet! It's not like we won't have a infructure, supplies, or a terrible ground army! The Reapers will surely just leave a easily harvestable soft target alone!" 

So many facepalms during Rannoch.

[Sir DeLoria]

AresKeith wrote...

Also topics like this are pointless because of overly bias people

*not trying to point fingers*

That would be almost everyone in the room actually.

[Ryzaki]

Necanor wrote...

You laugh at the death of 17 million civilians? At the death of infants and children? All because of the decision of three dumb leaders? Wow mate, you're a bit vile aren't you?

Imagine the US had three dumb politicians start a war with a far more powerful enemy. Do you think America would deserve total annihilation and all its citizens would deserve to die?

Yes I laugh at the death of 17 million pixels that died due to stupidity and war mongering.

OMG how dare I mock pixels.

OMG OMG OMG.

Yeah I'd hike my ass to Canada. Not my problem.