304 réponses à ce sujet

[Br3admax]

AresKeith wrote...

Also topics like this are pointless because of overly bias people

*not trying to point fingers*

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Necanor wrote...

@Massively

It doesn't matter in what state the Geth collective mind was, murder is murder, genocide is genocide. You compared their state of mind to that of a wild animal going rampage, well that animal needs to be put down.

Why is the animal to blame for the actions of those that provoke it? Why is the animal being punished for being in panicked rage? Why is the animal to blame for being unable to reason, especially when it was the provocateurs who destroyed that ability?

Is it justified that the Quarians committed the same against a race that was previously a sapient, intelligent race?

[Ryzaki]

Br3ad wrote...
Ships don't run on air. They need fuel, supplies, the likes, and it takes almost an entire day to move the entire Migrant Fleet.

All those things they can get scavenging. (same way Shep's ass gets fuel). The Quarians aren't a wealthy race. Most of their supplies were always gotten via scavenging. (It's why they're considered the thieves of the galaxy).

You act like them living on a planet is much better? They'll need to buy farming supplies and make an entire infacture for the planet to even be livable.

It takes longer to depopulate a planet than it does to shoot a beam of molten metal through a few ships that can't move.

Not if those fleets have enough sense to retreat via Mass Relays (which then they can't be tracked to which system they went to).

Also given the Quarians weak immune systems depopulating them is just sending a swarm of husks and banshees and blowing up their purification facilities. At least with the space battle their deaths would be quick.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 18 novembre 2013 - 10:51 .

[CronoDragoon]

AresKeith wrote...

Also topics like this are pointless because of overly bias people

*not trying to point fingers*

You wouldn't have enough fingers anyway. Quarians get passes because of Tali and geth get passes because of some weird reverse-bias thing where they get cut slack because they are synthetic.

[Sir DeLoria]

Obadiah wrote...

Necanor wrote...

Obadiah wrote...
Merely pointing out that the interpretation put forward of how the Morning War was fought is based on assumption of how the Quarians behaved.

Huh? You mean how a part of the Quarian leadership behaved, perhaps. Even if a government does terrible things, killing the civilians under that government is still murder. Unlike your beloved Geth, the Quarians aren't a hive mind.

What makes you think the Quarians didn't follow thier leadership in the Morning War? Seems to me the Geth memories show the Quarians purging their population of people who didn't want to fight.

What? No, that's completely made up. The Quarians detained everyone who supported the Geth, that's all(albeit a select few violent deaths). The vast majority of the Quarians didn't fight. Not like the robots cared.

Modifié par Necanor, 18 novembre 2013 - 10:50 .

[dreamgazer]

Definitely pumpkin seeds.

[SlottsMachine]

Reezy told me to post here. I guess he thought my post game needed work.

[Ryzaki]

dreamgazer wrote...

Definitely pumpkin seeds.

I will never understand how people eat those and sunflower seeds. Just way too annoying for crap reward.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

klarabella wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...
Did you ever stop and consider what the circumstances behind their actions were? The psychology of the Geth, the technological maturity of the Geth, etc. 

As I recall, the Geth were being hunted to extinction themselves. Are you proposing that the Geth simply lie back and accept death?

Geth are not human. The geth were scheduled to be shut down. Shutting them down only very roughly translates to (what humans understand and fear as permanent) death.

Just because the geth want to avoid being shut down doesn't mean they panicked or were scared. The geth are not human and don't feel like we do. To slap on human characteristics to make them more relatable is actually an insult to one of the few smarter ideas in Mass Effect.

Given the nature and alien-ness of the geth I don't see how the quarian's reaction is less understandable and more wrong than the geth's reaction.

An interesting and complex dilemma dumbed down to a simple black-and-white issue. That's Mass Effect.

I didn't apply any human concepts to Geth in this post. I simply used our words to best understand the psychology of the Geth at the time. 

[dreamgazer]

Ryzaki wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

Definitely pumpkin seeds.

I will never understand how people eat those and sunflower seeds. Just way too annoying for crap reward.

Not too sure what you're doing with your sunflower and pumpkin seeds.

[ImaginaryMatter]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

@ImaginaryMatter
This argument sickens and disgusts me. After systematically exterminating 99% of the Quarian race, the Geth should somehow be lauded because they couldn't make up their minds on whether to kill the fleeing survivors fast enough to actually do so?

Answer me this. At what point does "he hit me first" cease to be a valid justification for one's actions? At what point are the Geth accountable for their own actions in your eyes?

The Geth only attacked those who posed a threat. They don't feel things like anger or revenge, they may have understood the concept, but they don't have the urge to seek retribution against Quarians; they aren't affected by emotions because they don't have them and there never was a consensus to kill all Quarians. The Quarian death toll was so high not because the Geth started razing entire cities but because of the nature of the war. Almost every Quarian owned Geth units and after the onset of the war martial law was declared and every Quarian was ordered to deactivate their Geth units, by force if necessary; if the civilians did not comply they were either detained or killed by their own government. It was a vicious war not fought on any kind of conventional front but a war fought in each home of every city, where the majority of the Quarian population were involved as combatants. It was a war where practically every Quarian was armed with a means to fight the Geth.

If the Geth were any other race, and the war was more conventional I would without a doubt say the Geth went 'to far'. However, due to the circumstances, I'm willing to give the Geth the benefit of the doubt  that the only acted when they feared for their own life (circuitry?) and that their response was never affected or clouded by any kind of emotion, just a logical progression of what needed to be done for survival, with the smallest number of Quarian casualties as possible. They were in a situation where there were practically no civilian, noncombative targets and yet they acted with surprising restraint.

[Br3admax]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...
Not the same thing, not even close. In ME2, I'll kill a merc who tries to kill me. I don't then make it my business to hunt down his wife, daughter and grandfather and kill them too.

Or to put it another way, you're in a building full of people with a gun, you're attacked by another person in the building with a gun and kill him. Justifiable. If you then kill everyone else in the building who can't get away from you fast enough, it ceases to be self-defense.

Remember how Legion stated that the Geth were collectively in their mental and psychological-equivalent infancy? They were more akin to a wild animal that had been actively attacked and chased and is striking back in self-defence. The result was the Geth equivalent of the 'fight or flight/freeze' reaction. The Geth could not flee as the Quarians were assaulting them. As more Geth were destroyed the reduced mental capacity caused the Geth to act more on instinct and lash back in panicked fury to protect themselves.

It's been three hundred years and they are still doing the same thing.

Well, the actions and statements made by organics and their own very negative experience with them in the past haven't inspired confidence in the Geth and organics. They're more interested in being an isolationist observers who, while interested by organics, have no desire to be under their influence. They have a deep-seated distrust in organics, which is why I believe they violently attack any expedition or force that enters their region of space.

And they haven't become less intelligent sense then.

No they haven't. They've gotten much more intelligent. But this isn't a debate about the intellectual capacity of the Geth during the 300 year isolation. This is a talk about why the Geth had decided to maintain their isolation, with offensive means and capability.

I will admit that the quarians deserved all that came to them, bu I'm not going to pretend that the geth are somehow not to blame for their actions either.

To be honest, I really don't think the Geth are guilty at all. What judgement can you apply to something that was acting essentially as a provoked and cornered wild animal? And can you really blame the Geth for violently maintaining their own isolation in the face of percieved organic deviousness? They see how synthetics are treated and realized in the Organic galaxy, and this isn't easily juxtaposed against courier and civilian vessels that request peace. 

Yes, I very much can blame a race of people who always seem to conviently have a reason for why they continue to murder people. They've seen how sythetics are treated by who? They have the Morning War and then nothing else. So, using that,  they believe that it is justifed to kill everything that comes near them, which is definitely fallicous. If they are like animals, than it is understandable. But they are not, collectively speaking, so they should have this thing called reason, and learn that shooting everything is not the way to gather sympathy.

Besides, destroying platforms does not even kill the geth that use them, and the heretics that left didn't make them any less intelligent. 

As I said, this isn't a question about the intelligence of the Geth.

You used that a as reason that they became less intelligent, unintelligent enough to go primal, even though that clearly isn't the case. They fought for survival wiht the clear knowledge of any rational being. They didn't go back on instinct. 

Modifié par Br3ad, 18 novembre 2013 - 10:55 .

[Ryzaki]

dreamgazer wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

Definitely pumpkin seeds.

I will never understand how people eat those and sunflower seeds. Just way too annoying for crap reward.

Not too sure what you're doing with your sunflower and pumpkin seeds.

I don't know I try to crack the shell but it turns into nasty grey mush in my mouth.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Necanor wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

I'm debating whether to stay neutral here or to jump in. What to do, what to do.

Heh. I'm so tired of geth quarian debates at this point.

Thankfully the game allows me to laugh as those idiot quarians kill themselves with their warmongering and I can still get my best destroy ending. That's enough for me!

All those fools had to do was wait til after the war was over and they'd had their planet. But nooooo ah well too bad so sad.

Yeah, I'm sure humans would never try to reclaim their homeworld after 300 years of exile when they had the perfect chance. Noooo way.

Why do they have to 'reclaim' their homeworld through battle? The Geth are perfectly willing to allow the Quarians to return so long as the Quarians don't try to initiate another extermination. 

[Ryzaki]

The Mad Hanar wrote...

I personally think the Geth and the Quarians are retarded.

Along with Humans, Asari, Hanar, Protheans, Salarians, and especially the Krogan.

I can't think of a single species or person that I didn't say "Really, bro?" at some point in the series, except for Thane and the Drell.

Then again, the Citadel Coup happened.

...every person in the ME universe is retarded.

The Yahg? 

Re seeds: LOL see you just put me even more off eating them.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 18 novembre 2013 - 10:55 .

[Sir DeLoria]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Necanor wrote...
@Massively

It doesn't matter in what state the Geth collective mind was, murder is murder, genocide is genocide. You compared their state of mind to that of a wild animal going rampage, well that animal needs to be put down.

Why is the animal to blame for the actions of those that provoke it? Why is the animal being punished for being in panicked rage? Why is the animal to blame for being unable to reason, especially when it was the provocateurs who destroyed that ability?

Is it justified that the Quarians committed the same against a race that was previously a sapient, intelligent race?

The perpetrators of the provocation were long dead and yet the animal didn't stop killing and killing and killing. the Quarians had every right to put them down.

[Ryzaki]

Necanor wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Necanor wrote...
@Massively

It doesn't matter in what state the Geth collective mind was, murder is murder, genocide is genocide. You compared their state of mind to that of a wild animal going rampage, well that animal needs to be put down.

Why is the animal to blame for the actions of those that provoke it? Why is the animal being punished for being in panicked rage? Why is the animal to blame for being unable to reason, especially when it was the provocateurs who destroyed that ability?

Is it justified that the Quarians committed the same against a race that was previously a sapient, intelligent race?

The perpetrators of the provocation were long dead and yet the animal didn't stop killing and killing and killing. the Quarians had every right to put them down.

What. 300 years of hiding behind the Veil is killing and killing and killing?

Geth (non heretic geth) didn't attack the Quarians until they started something. (At the dumbest of times I might add).

Modifié par Ryzaki, 18 novembre 2013 - 10:57 .

[Br3admax]

Ryzaki wrote...

Br3ad wrote...
Ships don't run on air. They need fuel, supplies, the likes, and it takes almost an entire day to move the entire Migrant Fleet.

All those things they can get scavenging. (same way Shep's ass gets fuel). The Quarians aren't a wealthy race. Most of their supplies were always gotten via scavenging. (It's why they're considered the thieves of the galaxy).

Game mechanics aside, do you not think that everyone else is doing this?

 
You act like them living on a planet is much better? They'll need to buy farming supplies and make an entire infacture for the planet to even be livable.

It takes longer to depopulate a planet than it does to shoot a beam of molten metal through a few ships that can't move.

Not if those fleets have enough sense to retreat via Mass Relays (which then they can't be tracked to which system they went to).

Also given the Quarians weak immune systems depopulating them is just sending a swarm of husks and banshees and blowing up their purification facilities. At least with the space battle their deaths would be quick.

That really doesn't change the point. "It's dangerous up there, it's dangerous down here. Let's stay up here so we can die quickly. Let's not even give ourselves a chance." That the reasoning that you're telling me is logical? 

Modifié par Br3ad, 18 novembre 2013 - 11:04 .

[Sir DeLoria]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Necanor wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
Heh. I'm so tired of geth quarian debates at this point. 

Thankfully the game allows me to laugh as those idiot quarians kill themselves with their warmongering and I can still get my best destroy ending. That's enough for me!
All those fools had to do was wait til after the war was over and they'd had their planet. But nooooo ah well too bad so sad. 

Yeah, I'm sure humans would never try to reclaim their homeworld after 300 years of exile when they had the perfect chance. Noooo way.

Why do they have to 'reclaim' their homeworld through battle? The Geth are perfectly willing to allow the Quarians to return so long as the Quarians don't try to initiate another extermination. 

Yeah, because the Quarians know that and certainly trust those that nearly eradicated them. Because humanity would trust Skynet if it offered a truce<_<