93 réponses à ce sujet

[redwarf]

Okay, so the other day I watched a preview video about the game, this one.


First thing first, the game looks great. Both visually and mechanically: the enemies and enviroments, the combat and "keep" systems, show how much effort has been put into the game. 

There was however something which bothered me. At one point you start a quest, you make a choice between a couple of objectives and set off. Suddenly, a wild progress bar appears at the top left corner of the screen, and it's counting down. Assumingly, if it goes all the way down something bad happens.

I dislike it for a number of reasons:
1) Myself as a player, I'm kind of a "completionist", I like to poke my nose in every corner, listen to every NPC, take everything that isn't bolted down, grab my wrench and take the stuff that is. This exploration is part of the joy of the game for me, with a time limit to an unknown end point you just can't do it.
Alternatively, I'm forced to backtrack simply so I could get a good look the area I was just in, how is that a good thing?

2) Arbitrary. Before starting a conversation or taking the step forwards I could stand for hours in the area and it wouldn't have mattered at all, so why suddenly is there a time limit. Furthermore, upon completing the quest and going to see the result of my handiwork, a matter of a couple of minutes, it feels as though hours have passed in the game. This kind of time leaps ruin my immersion in the game.

3) Unnecessary. There are so many ways to create a sense of tension (some of which are actually used): Background happenings, dialogues, overhead banter, epic music, even a big glowing exclamation mark on the minimap (okay, so this a bad one). There is no need for such a sudden limit.

4) Randomness. What if my party isn't the best composition, what if I'm a little under-leveled? Say I managed to reach  the objective but 1:49 too late? Do I keep going feeling "cheated" of my successs? Reload an earlier save and sacrifice virgins and puppies to the RNG gods for better critical hits?


I just want to clarify I'm not against giving you some sort limit on how many objectives you can achieve (basically forcing you to make choice), I'm against making it real-time dependent. Take for example ME2: Before the suicide mission your crew is kidnapped and you can choose to pursue immedietly or complete some remaining side-quests. If you left at once (you chose that as your next mission - not time dependent) all of your crew lived, if you did  1-2 side-quests (IIRC) some of your crew died, if you did 3+ all of your crew died.
This to me seems fine, since I can still have the time to speak to NPCs, upgrade weapons or skills, and make up my mind.



TL:DR - Timed quests were incredibly aggravating in Fallout 1, they're still incredibly aggravating today. Please Bioware, don't put them into the game.

[TheKomandorShepard]

No i hate timed quests first because i must run through game not enjoy game i still remember quests in first stalker i hated them and fallout 1 time limit (150 days?) were terrible it is good they removed that in f2.

[Wulfram]

I'm in favour of what might be called "strategic" time limits - time measured in days or weeks that would be consumed by resting or long distance travel or whatnot - but I wouldn't want to spend a too high a proportion of time on a clock that counts down minutes and seconds. It might be OK for a brief emergency, but long term it'd definitely get annoying.

I really hope you won't end up being punished if you get interrupted during a conversation and weren't able to pause the game.

[snackrat]

I really dislike time limits also. They put pressure on abandoning more difficult or time-consuming activities (eg: discovering secret areas) - even when they give you ample time to do so. Really grinds my gears when I feel the pressure from the clock and blaze through only to have ten minutes (or some absurdly generous amount) still on the clock.

Of course, games never recognise how much time remains on the clock, and you are still just in time to watch/miss Specified Story Event...

[Fardreamer]

I too dislike timed quests in general, but there are times when they actually make sense. Like in Mass Effect's prologue when you have to disarm the bombs before they blow everything up. I hated the rushed sense I got, I felt like I was leaving important loot behind, but at the same time if I had just been able to take my time knowing the game wouldn't REALLY let the bombs go off until I got to the last one (maybe they'd throw in a cutscene showing how I JUST made it in time, or my party kept yelling "Hurry!") it would have felt like an anti climactic let-down.

If they say "Hey you have to get out of her before the whole place caves in!" Then there should be some incentive to rush. Maybe a timer isn't the best for this, but it's hard to think of an alternative.

Modifié par Fardreamer, 18 novembre 2013 - 04:31 .

[AlanC9]

Wulfram wrote...

I'm in favour of what might be called "strategic" time limits - time measured in days or weeks that would be consumed by resting or long distance travel or whatnot - but I wouldn't want to spend a too high a proportion of time on a clock that counts down minutes and seconds. It might be OK for a brief emergency, but long term it'd definitely get annoying..

Agreed. I presume the progress bar mentioned in the OP is for one of those brief emergencies. I'm strongly in favor of actual urgency rather than fake urgency. Though not all situation have to be urgent, of course.

And I'd like to see strategic time rather than traditional RPG quest-dependent time. I burned out on that after ME3, where "Priority" meant that you should delay doing a mission rather than do it immediately. Though this is merely making explicit something that DA:O also did. And BG2. And most other non-linear RPGs. HotU is one of the few exceptions that comes to mind, since the Valsharess would attack before you did all the quests.

Modifié par AlanC9, 18 novembre 2013 - 04:44 .

[Tinxa]

I liked the sort of timed quest that was shown.

First of all the timer starts when you hear from the soldiers about the attack. Why wouldn't you race straight to the village/keep? I would find it harder to believe if it all just waited for you while you picked daisies.

The timer is also very clear. If I'm being timed I'd like the game to show me onscreen. In ME3 I didn't know that it was important to save the crew right away, I just thought it was "important" like NPCs always say it is, but it really isn't. I was in for a nasty surprise when I accidentaly killed all my crew and then found out on the internet I was being timed.

The timed quest also seemed very short, the keep and village really aren't that far from the soldiers. When the quest is dealt with, you can come back and explore in peace. You have to come back to see the ruined village (or the village you saved) anyway. If the timer required you to trek across half of the map and missing things along the way I would be annoyed, but if it just forces you to join a battle raging a few steps away I don't see the problem. You can't do other sidequests in this area at this time anyway.

I like the occasional timed quest in the game because it makes things more interesting and because it pushes you out of your comfort zone. I don't think they should be overdone though and the main quest should never be timed like in fallout.

[Ash Wind]

While I don't care for timed missions, they can be a challenge as much as they are an annoyance. As long as the area is available for further exploration, its not a deal breaker.

[Eurypterid]

I hate timed quests, even in situations where it makes sense ( as in what Tinxa referenced). I find it just focuses my attention on the damned timer and less on the game. Not fun at all for me.

[durasteel]

Ash Wind wrote...

While I don't care for timed missions, they can be a challenge as much as they are an annoyance. As long as the area is available for further exploration, its not a deal breaker.

I generally agree with this. I also feel that it is important that it is possible--however difficult--to obtain a "perfect" outcome within the time alloted. Even if I have to reload a prior save several times to be able to save both the village and the fortress and stomp the red templars in a decisive victory, I really want to know that it is possible. That, to me, adds a lot of replayablility, because I can take things as they come the first time(s) through the game, and eventually come back to claim my flawless perfect victory, made all the sweeter because I know what could be lost.

[redwarf]

Tinxa wrote...

Why wouldn't you race straight to the village/keep? I would find it harder to believe if it all just waited for you while you picked daisies.

The timer is also very clear...

1) Maybe I want to take a couple of minutes and enjoy the work of the artist and level designers? Maybe I want to talk to NPCs to hear what they have to say. Maybe I want to explore the area to gather intel or find alternative paths?
These are all valid reasons, I feel, not to simply rush headlong into the battle.

2) The timer is clear, and I agree this was a problem in ME2, but the problem is that even if the timer is clear how much progress I made is not. I could know I've got 3:30 minutes left, but how can I know if I'm half-way through or nearly done, or how many obstacles or enemies I need to pass?

Modifié par redwarf, 18 novembre 2013 - 05:33 .

[AlanC9]

Eurypterid wrote...

I hate timed quests, even in situations where it makes sense ( as in what Tinxa referenced). I find it just focuses my attention on the damned timer and less on the game. Not fun at all for me.

I don't really follow what you mean here. What's the distinction between the timer and the game? The timer's part of the game isn't it?

[AlanC9]

redwarf wrote...


1) Maybe I want to take a couple of minutes and enjoy the work of the artist and level designers? Maybe I want to talk to NPCs to hear what they have to say. Maybe I want to explore the area to gather intel or find alternative paths?
These are all valid reasons, I feel, not to simply rush headlong into the battle.

I don't see how the first is a valid reason. Surely it's not in character to admire scenery while something urgent is happening. Hard to tell about talking to the NPCs --  depends on why you're talking to them. But if the situation is designed around urgency, it's not very likely that the NPCs are going to have anything much to say, is it? Bio's not going to write a bunch of dialogue they don't expect players to hear.

Exploring for intel is valid, of course. If alternate paths are there to be found, a competent player will have time to find them. Managing time effectively is part of the gameplay if they're bothering to put a timer in, right?

Modifié par AlanC9, 18 novembre 2013 - 06:23 .

[Medhia Nox]

It's a "Timed Event" - the entire game isn't necessarily time sensitive... though, I believe it should be.

Never tell me "This is so important! You should care!"

If you're going to let me spend the next two in game years doing side-quests.

There is EVERY indication that you'll be able to return to areas after Timed Events.

[Karach_Blade]

I don't mind timed quests if they are given rationally. Rescuing the keep/rescuing the village or attempting to rescue both should be timed as it brings a firm sense of urgency.

[Inprea]

It's nice that there is at least one timed quest hopefully they'll be more At first I feel a little nervous while doing them but I always remind myself that such quest are geared so that the average gamer will be able to accomplish them. Well the average gamer is pretty darn bad it seems so I always have plenty of time.

It's always fun to see how by how large of a margin I can beat the timer while accomplishing all the goals and finding all the items. As for anyone wondering how I feel when i can't do that and beat the timer. I have no idea it's never happened before.

Modifié par Inprea, 18 novembre 2013 - 06:39 .

[Zenbry]

I hate timed quests with a fiery passion. I am also a competitionist, and like to check every nook and cranny. Beyond that though, I'm a mom. I game after my children go to bed, and on the weekends when my husband can watch the kids. Mostly the latter, except my wonderful children want to show me the picture they just drew, or have Mommy kiss the booboo instead of Daddy. Not huge interruptions, but enough that timed quests are really difficult.

Pausing the game and coming back to "Oh crap, oh crap! Hurry up or you're going to lose you keep and the town!" Is super stressful and not fun. I hope the developers remember that gamers don't get to play the game in their offices with other adults who know not to bug you while you're playing. We play in our homes, with our pets shredding a roll of paper towels, our parents calling to ask when we are going to send more pictures, and our kids wanting a glass of water.

[Tinxa]

AlanC9 wrote...

redwarf wrote...


1) Maybe I want to take a couple of minutes and enjoy the work of the artist and level designers? Maybe I want to talk to NPCs to hear what they have to say. Maybe I want to explore the area to gather intel or find alternative paths?
These are all valid reasons, I feel, not to simply rush headlong into the battle.

I don't see how the first is a valid reason. Surely it's not in character to admire scenery while something urgent is happening. Hard to tell about talking to the NPCs --  depends on why you're talking to them. But if the situation is designed around urgency, it's not very likely that the NPCs are going to have anything much to say, is it? Bio's not going to write a bunch of dialogue they don't expect players to hear.

Exploring for intel is valid, of course. If alternate paths are there to be found, a competent player will have time to find them. Managing time effectively is part of the gameplay if they're bothering to put a timer in, right?

I feel that the timed quest shown addresses all these points as much as a timed quest can. The timer doesn't just appear when you enter the area so you have to scramble to find the wounded soldiers. You can admire the scenery and walk around a little before you meet them. And after the timer starts exploration is rewarded - you can find and destroy the boats and find a secret passage to the keep (I'm assuming that you could just as easily just rush at the front gates and that it's much harder).

And the area doesn't just disappear after that. You can climb mountains, observe scenery and stick your nose into every cave after the timed quest is done.

[KC_Prototype]

Well, I'm gonna tell the soldiers to go back to the keep and then defend Crestwood my self so I have no problem there. I do dislike time quests but this doesn't seem that bad and once done, you can go back to discovering and exploring.

[Medhia Nox]

It would be interesting if you could also extend the time - or shorten it through mistakes (yes, I'm aware gamers hate punishments generally)

[Hellion Rex]

Medhia Nox wrote...

It would be interesting if you could also extend the time - or shorten it through mistakes (yes, I'm aware gamers hate punishments generally)

I agree. When they showed the Veilfire markings on the cavern wall that you could write down, I had a feeling that completing that action would shorten the meter a bit.

[Fiery Phoenix]

This is going to sound harsh, but NO.

[Endurium]

I'm not fond of timers in games either; I end up having to game the timer rather than enjoy the game. A classic example is NWN2:MotB where I spent most of my time managing my spirit meter, and this detracted from my enjoyment of other aspects of the game. After my first game doing it the spirit meter way I disabled it for future playthroughs. Huge improvement!

That said, the timer in the DA:I demo didn't seem to be counting down too quickly; the person playing was sort of goofing around during the explanation. Looks like we'd have time to gather resources and fight mobs and make it on time as long as we didn't goof around too much.

Too early to say if this will be a point of annoyance or will actually enhance enjoyment of the game. Will have to experience it myself to decide that.

[Medhia Nox]

@eluvianix: But fortunately he states very clearly that you can go back to them.

I honestly don't understand a completionists worries... there's nothing (so far) indicating places will be closed off by timed limit type events.

Honestly - if you're defending a keep, chances are you were already through that area before to take it in the first place.

If a game is going to be leisurely - it should tell me. If a game is going to imply importance of something - then it should show me.

[Wulfram]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@eluvianix: But fortunately he states very clearly that you can go back to them.

I honestly don't understand a completionists worries... there's nothing (so far) indicating places will be closed off by timed limit type events.

That kind of back tracking is annoying, though.