293 réponses à ce sujet

[Ryzaki]

CronoDragoon wrote...

It's not an issue of trust. Legion (and by extension all non-heretic geth) were unable to detect abnormal runtimes in their own servers until they went to the heretic ship and saw them.

Then how did Legion even know the heretics were going there in the first place? (Been a while since I played that mission).

And even if they had this flaw in ME2 you really think they still have it in ME3? 

Anderson immediately lost control of his own body due to TIM, and
anything TIM did was based off of Reaper indoctrination. But this
argument isn't necessary for the geth because, again, you don't need to
hack them instantly.

TIM's ability is not foreshadowed or even described as anything other than "lol Reapers can do this" and Reapers have never been shown moving someone's body without indoctrination in the games (I don't read the books or comics so if they do so there I don't know) the ability was pulled out of the developers asses.

TIM's research was about making husks and making a piggyback version of the Reaper signal to control them full stop. He was attempting to make it so it could control Reapers but he never got that far.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 19 novembre 2013 - 04:58 .

[RatThing]

knucks360 wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

RatThing wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...
The second time, the Geth were faced with a massive crisis. They could be destroyed by their creators who held a relative technological advantage over them, with no hope of help from an unsympathetic and antagonistic galaxy at large, or they could submit themselves to the Reapers in the hope of surviving. 
 

Exactly what I said, just in different words. The only thing I'd add is that there's no guarantee that this will not happen again with the difference that they will be threatened by the Reapers itself. So don't give me this crap about ignorance, there has been no other faction that worked more and better with the Reapers.

I don't know what the hell you' just said... 

I think he said...ehh...yeah me neither.

I was referring to an older post of mine, or is language the problem here? In that case, Geth choose to work for the Reapers once to save their asses, I believe it can happen twice. (quick summary)

[CronoDragoon]

Ryzaki wrote...

Then how did Legion even know the heretics were going there in the first place? (Been a while since I played that mission).

Because Legion accessed the heretics' systems in their own ship. He didn't detect them in his own hubs.

And even if they had this flaw in ME2 you really think they still have it in ME3? 

Well, given that pre-Reaper code the geth in ME3 are far stupider than in ME2 (thanks to the Dyson Sphere destruction) I'd say it's far MORE likely that the Reapers could forcibly take them over.

[Ryzaki]

CronoDragoon wrote...

Because Legion accessed the heretics' systems in their own ship. He didn't detect them in his own hubs.

Ah. Well almost done with ME1 so I'll replay ME2.

Well, given that pre-Reaper code the geth in ME3 are far stupider than in ME2 (thanks to the Dyson Sphere destruction) I'd say it's far MORE likely that the Reapers could forcibly take them over.

After the Quarians weakened them? Yeah the Geth weren't at their best after that so the Reapers could've probably brute forced it but it still would've taken time (not to mention just seeing a Reaper coming towards them should put the Geth on high alert). But they were retarded after the Dyson sphere was destroyed it.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 19 novembre 2013 - 05:03 .

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Steelcan wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...


It is stated that the Geth are the best equipped and most adaptable ground force in the galaxy. I disagree with the ultimate utility of the Krogan being more than zerg rush combatants. The Quarians are strong with tech, but the Geth are no pushover. The Turians, pre-war yes, and during the war, I'd still say it was an edge for the Turians. But I would not put the Asari Navy against the Geth. Look at dreadnought numbers. The Geth have nearly as many as the Turians. The Asari only have 60% of the number as the Turians. Plus, all Geth constructs have a military utility. They are capable of devoting themselves 100% to the fight 100% of the time. The only limitations for the Geth are raw resources and time.

Better equipped perhaps, but I'd rather a ton of krogan warlords than a ton of geth.  They are just man for man stronger.

The Geth platforms are machines. That can withstand just about any environment you can think of with no hampering in efficiency. With advanced combat equipment and gear. That are capable of withstanding all sorts of damage, and capable of 100% devoting itself to the fight 100% of the time, with instantaneous connection to the entire Geth network in real time, giving it incredible perception and view of the battlefield, capable of unprecedented levels of coordination and collective tactical and strategic ability, and capable of instanteous communication with every networked Geth at all times, and they're run by cold, hard logic, without having to worry about fear or other emotions and problems that organics have to deal with.

With the Krogan, you have strong warriors, yes, but they're prone to being enraged, they can't withstand every environment without hampering efficiency, they don't have advanced combat gear or weaponry, they aren't capable of devoting themselves to the fight 100% of the time, they don't have strong connection with the Krogan forces (and indeed when they do, they can be prone to fighting each other), they zerg rush the enemy (which would be frightening to an enemy that feels fear, which the Reapers don't), they don't have much coordination on a tactical scale, and they're bound by many of the inherent deficiencies that organics face.

The quarians proved their technological superiority when they turned the geth into blind hulks floating in space.

 
One technological advantage (even a great one) does not make one technologically superior.

The Japanese Mitsubishi A6M (the Zero) was a great advantage over the Americans, but altogether, the Japanese forces were comparatively inferior to the American forces. This is a historical example.

Oh I agree that the asari don't have the same numbers, but the Destiny Ascension was impressive regardless.  Well before it exploded.

So was the Geth Dreadnought in the Battle over Rannoch. It was a monster in size. Not quite the size of the Ascension, but the entire Quarian Heavy Fleet was having a lot of trouble taking it on.

[Ryzaki]

So was the Geth Dreadnought in the Battle over Rannoch. It was a monster in size. Not quite the size of the Ascension, but the entire Quarian Heavy Fleet was having a lot of trouble taking it on.

My renedouche is so pissed that was blown up. Did the Reapers make the Geth build that or did they always have that? Because if the latter damnit.

[CronoDragoon]

Ryzaki wrote...
After the Quarians weakened them? Yeah the Geth weren't at their best after that so the Reapers could've probably brute forced it but it still would've taken time (not to mention just seeing a Reaper coming towards them should put the Geth on high alert).

I don't even remember what the point of this specific line of debate was, but I'm fine with the assertion that the Reapers could have taken over the geth non-instantly and that the Reaper code corrected this.

[Steelcan]

They were having trouble because the reaper code.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

RatThing wrote...

knucks360 wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

RatThing wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...
The second time, the Geth were faced with a massive crisis. They could be destroyed by their creators who held a relative technological advantage over them, with no hope of help from an unsympathetic and antagonistic galaxy at large, or they could submit themselves to the Reapers in the hope of surviving. 
 

Exactly what I said, just in different words. The only thing I'd add is that there's no guarantee that this will not happen again with the difference that they will be threatened by the Reapers itself. So don't give me this crap about ignorance, there has been no other faction that worked more and better with the Reapers.

I don't know what the hell you' just said... 

I think he said...ehh...yeah me neither.

I was referring to an older post of mine, or is language the problem here? In that case, Geth choose to work for the Reapers once to save their asses, I believe it can happen twice. (quick summary)

Why will it happen again? The Geth are now committed to the fight against the Reapers. They aren't going to jump sides again just because the war is going bad. If they did, they'd know full well that the Reapers would turn on them at the end, and by switching sides, they'd give the allied forces even less of a chance. No, they'd stick with the Galaxy no matter what.

[Ryzaki]

CronoDragoon wrote...
I don't even remember what the point of this specific line of debate was, but I'm fine with the assertion that the Reapers could have taken over the geth non-instantly and that the Reaper code corrected this.

My arguement was that they couldn't if the Geth were at full strength. Simply because of the correction way of their networking, it would've been time consuming and costly for the Reapers will little reward since the Geth would've learned not to leave their main server unguarded.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 19 novembre 2013 - 05:17 .

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Cobalt2113 wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Yes. Self-interest is all the Geth have. What would you do if all your worst enemy attacked you, while everyone else didn't care about you and antagonized you, and are too busy fighting the invaders of their town, with said invaders offering to spare you if you acted as their slave long enough to be the last ones standing until the invaders turned on you?

That is some convoluted logic right there. So if my choices were...

A) Get killed by Qaurians
Kill Quarians then get killed by Reapers
C) Get the hell out of dodge.

I would probably pick C, and definitely not B.

Where would they go? How would they flee? They've been backed into a corner. Their major investment, their dyson sphere, has been destroyed by the Quarians, and they've been simultaneously attacked on all of their holdings by the Quarians. Due to the loss in processing power, their capability has been markedly hindered. They've been surrounded around Rannoch by the Quarians. They have no option of escape. It really is either die now, or make a deal and die later.

[CronoDragoon]

Ryzaki wrote...

My arguement was that they couldn't if the Geth were at full strength. Simply because of the correction way of their networking since the Geth would've learned not to leave their main server unguarded.

Okay, that's a bit different from this though:

Ryzaki wrote...
Pretty sure the only reason the Reaper was able to take over the Geth was because they allowed the Reaper to take over.

So is it reasonable to say that the ME3 geth could have been taken over forcibly by the Reapers and that the Reaper code prevented this possibility post-Rannoch? (Hypothetically speaking, if you were able to choose the geth without the Reaper code thingy, they would still vulnerable to Reaper influence. This is supported by Shepard, an admitted non-expert in this field, answering Allers' question about geth betrayal by asserting the geth have taken countermeasures to ensure they don't ever become Reaper thralls again).

I'm not comfortable saying full-strength non-Reaper code geth are invulnerable to viruses or hacking though. If they plugged one security hole it doesn't mean all are plugged.

[Ryzaki]

CronoDragoon wrote...

Okay, that's a bit different from this though:

So is it reasonable to say that the ME3 geth could have been taken over forcibly by the Reapers and that the Reaper code prevented this possibility post-Rannoch? (Hypothetically speaking, if you were able to choose the geth without the Reaper code thingy, they would still vulnerable to Reaper influence. This is supported by Shepard, an admitted non-expert in this field, answering Allers' question about geth betrayal by asserting the geth have taken countermeasures to ensure they don't ever become Reaper thralls again).

I'm not comfortable saying full-strength non-Reaper code geth are invulnerable to viruses or hacking though. If they plugged one security hole it doesn't mean all are plugged.

You mean before or after the Quarians started blowing them up? Because after yeah I think the Reapers could assume direct control before? No. (That and the Reapers prefer subterfuge over pure brute force if the series is anything to go by).

The geth might've been vulnerable but I assume they would've immediately started boosting their numbers again to pre Quarian war levels making that threat less relevant. (And completely irrelevant with Reaper code).

Invulnerable no. But it'd be difficult enough that the Reapers wouldn't be bothered when they're easier more convienent sources of cannon fodder.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 19 novembre 2013 - 05:33 .

[RatThing]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

RatThing wrote...

knucks360 wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

RatThing wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...
The second time, the Geth were faced with a massive crisis. They could be destroyed by their creators who held a relative technological advantage over them, with no hope of help from an unsympathetic and antagonistic galaxy at large, or they could submit themselves to the Reapers in the hope of surviving. 
 

Exactly what I said, just in different words. The only thing I'd add is that there's no guarantee that this will not happen again with the difference that they will be threatened by the Reapers itself. So don't give me this crap about ignorance, there has been no other faction that worked more and better with the Reapers.

I don't know what the hell you' just said... 

I think he said...ehh...yeah me neither.

I was referring to an older post of mine, or is language the problem here? In that case, Geth choose to work for the Reapers once to save their asses, I believe it can happen twice. (quick summary)

Why will it happen again? The Geth are now committed to the fight against the Reapers. They aren't going to jump sides again just because the war is going bad. If they did, they'd know full well that the Reapers would turn on them at the end, and by switching sides, they'd give the allied forces even less of a chance. No, they'd stick with the Galaxy no matter what.

You're talking about pragmatism, for me that means not taking any risks and not making assumptions as you do here.

[Fixers0]

My choices are dependent on whatever suits my current playthrough. Now thinking about destroying the geth with Tali having died during the suicide mission.

Modifié par Fixers0, 19 novembre 2013 - 05:37 .

[Deathsaurer]

My preferred path would be removing Han'Gerrel and maybe Xen from power since, you know, they're the ones responsible for the whole mess. The Quarian military seems to have a knack for being insanely stupid so let's do away with that martial law crap and let the sane civilians decide. Not big on killing the Geth or the Quarian civilians for 2 stupid admirals.

[trenq]

Would be better if most of the Quarians stopped firing and let Legion upload the code, let Gerrel and everyone else still firing die, i mean Tali, Koris and probably Raan wanted to stop the war.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

RatThing wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

RatThing wrote...

knucks360 wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

RatThing wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...
The second time, the Geth were faced with a massive crisis. They could be destroyed by their creators who held a relative technological advantage over them, with no hope of help from an unsympathetic and antagonistic galaxy at large, or they could submit themselves to the Reapers in the hope of surviving. 
 

Exactly what I said, just in different words. The only thing I'd add is that there's no guarantee that this will not happen again with the difference that they will be threatened by the Reapers itself. So don't give me this crap about ignorance, there has been no other faction that worked more and better with the Reapers.

I don't know what the hell you' just said... 

I think he said...ehh...yeah me neither.

I was referring to an older post of mine, or is language the problem here? In that case, Geth choose to work for the Reapers once to save their asses, I believe it can happen twice. (quick summary)

Why will it happen again? The Geth are now committed to the fight against the Reapers. They aren't going to jump sides again just because the war is going bad. If they did, they'd know full well that the Reapers would turn on them at the end, and by switching sides, they'd give the allied forces even less of a chance. No, they'd stick with the Galaxy no matter what.

You're talking about pragmatism, for me that means not taking any risks and not making assumptions as you do here.

You're assuming that the Geth will turn against the Galaxy. That's not very practical.

[Deathsaurer]

knucks360 wrote...

Well at least someone gets that half of the Admiralty board ≠ rest of the Quarian race. If only Koris,and maybe Raan ran the show.

Is this hard to understand? We're told repeatedly the civilians want out and many of them were ready to make a break for it. Han'Gerrel is the reason they all got stuck in that quagmire. It was likely the same in the Morning War.

trenq wrote...

Would be better if most of the Quarians stopped firing and let Legion upload the code, let Gerrel and everyone
else still firing die, i mean Tali, Koris and probably Raan wanted to stop the war.

I'd be cool with this though sadly the Geth would be useless in the war since the Reapers would easily be able to
duplicate Xen's trick. Oh wait I read that as stop Legion for some reason. Meh both work , hand out the Darwin awards.

Modifié par Deathsaurer, 19 novembre 2013 - 06:24 .

[DeinonSlayer]

Deathsaurer wrote...

My preferred path would be removing Han'Gerrel and maybe Xen from power since, you know, they're the ones responsible for the whole mess. The Quarian military seems to have a knack for being insanely stupid so let's do away with that martial law crap and let the sane civilians decide. Not big on killing the Geth or the Quarian civilians for 2 stupid admirals.

Koris' "solution" after the Geth severed communications was to drift and hope the Reapers didn't find them. Laden with civilians, the Quarians would have been incapable of contributing to the wider war effort against the Reapers. Gerrel and Xen made mistakes, sure, but their efforts freed up their ships for use in the allied war effort. The map description of the Migrant Fleet credits their as-yet low losses to Quarian strategic skill. It's only if Shepard stabs them in the back that they're totally screwed, even if Shepard tries childishly to deflect responsibility afterwards.

Would a diplomatic solution have been preferable? Of course, but neither side exactly had any reason to trust the other.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 19 novembre 2013 - 06:44 .

[Deathsaurer]

All of this totally justifies the slaughter of another race because of a couple of warmongering idiots. Sorry, not buying it.

[DeinonSlayer]

Deathsaurer wrote...

All of this totally justifies the slaughter of another race because of a couple of warmongering idiots. Sorry, not buying it.

The Geth turned to the Reapers because the Quarians had their backs to the wall - they were out of options. However, the Quarians themselves invaded because the Reaper invasion left them with no other options.

Think about it. A ship can't be used to transport soldiers and war materiel if its cargo hold is home to seven hundred civilians living in metal cubicles who need to stay within range of a liveship for daily shipments. The fleet has to stick together to keep everyone fed and protected at the same time, and per the codex, it takes days to traverse a relay. You can't hide like that. You need to offload them on a planet. They won't be any safer there (where is "safe" exactly?), but your ship can now aid the war effort.

The citadel itself is facing a food shortage. What Turian colony is going to be both willing and able to accept an influx of millions of refugees with finicky diets? What Turian colony isn't actively under attack by the Reapers and/or flooded by their own refugees? Where can the Quarian species survive, long-term, in the event that the fleet itself is destroyed before it can come back for them. They can't just dump them on some lifeless, airless rock as some have suggested. Rannoch is the only planet in the galaxy where a suit breach won't kill, and it's held by what is viewed as (at best) isolationists hostile to organic life of all stripes, or (at worst) a Reaper proxy. By the way, the Reapers are here NOW. What do?

[Ryzaki]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Deathsaurer wrote...

My preferred path would be removing Han'Gerrel and maybe Xen from power since, you know, they're the ones responsible for the whole mess. The Quarian military seems to have a knack for being insanely stupid so let's do away with that martial law crap and let the sane civilians decide. Not big on killing the Geth or the Quarian civilians for 2 stupid admirals.

Koris' "solution" after the Geth severed communications was to drift and hope the Reapers didn't find them. Laden with civilians, the Quarians would have been incapable of contributing to the wider war effort against the Reapers. Gerrel and Xen made mistakes, sure, but their efforts freed up their ships for use in the allied war effort. The map description of the Migrant Fleet credits their as-yet low losses to Quarian strategic skill. It's only if Shepard stabs them in the back that they're totally screwed, even if Shepard tries childishly to deflect responsibility afterwards.

Would a diplomatic solution have been preferable? Of course, but neither side exactly had any reason to trust the other.

First my Shepard doesn't stab them in the back Tali clearly asked them to stop firing. Not my Shep's fault they don't listen.

Actually considering most Quarian civilians are great with tech they very easily could've traded amnesty with council races in exchange for working on the Crucible. So Koris plan isn't that stupid. (especially since I"m fairly certain most of the engineers and such were in the civilian fleet).

And of course after the Reaper war they would've probably been gifted with land for their aid in the war.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 19 novembre 2013 - 07:04 .

[Steelcan]

Ryzaki wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Deathsaurer wrote...

My preferred path would be removing Han'Gerrel and maybe Xen from power since, you know, they're the ones responsible for the whole mess. The Quarian military seems to have a knack for being insanely stupid so let's do away with that martial law crap and let the sane civilians decide. Not big on killing the Geth or the Quarian civilians for 2 stupid admirals.

Koris' "solution" after the Geth severed communications was to drift and hope the Reapers didn't find them. Laden with civilians, the Quarians would have been incapable of contributing to the wider war effort against the Reapers. Gerrel and Xen made mistakes, sure, but their efforts freed up their ships for use in the allied war effort. The map description of the Migrant Fleet credits their as-yet low losses to Quarian strategic skill. It's only if Shepard stabs them in the back that they're totally screwed, even if Shepard tries childishly to deflect responsibility afterwards.

Would a diplomatic solution have been preferable? Of course, but neither side exactly had any reason to trust the other.

First my Shepard doesn't stab them in the back Tali clearly asked them to stop firing. Not my Shep's fault they don't listen.

Actually considering most Quarian civilians are great with tech they very easily could've traded amnesty with council races in exchange for working on the Crucible.

And of course after the Reaper war they would've probably been gifted with land for their aid in the war.

You knew damn well what would happen if that code was uploaded