311 réponses à ce sujet

[Little Princess Peach]

God This argument again we female gamers are even lucky to have the option to play as females I still recall playing rpg games in the past where you could only play as a male no female option and I'm still alive
and I played as a vangaurd and I have seen other people play with the Biotic shepard:/ so I have no idea where you got those facts from
Yes I get it we see less of the female hero but why the heck are people making a big deal about this? it's gaming not polotics, you should have fun with the game not turn it into a sex attack

[Br3admax]

Wraith 02 wrote...

frankf43 wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

David7204 wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

David7204 wrote...

Have people considered the deeper reasons as to why male combative characters appeal over female combative characters? Deeper than 'we're all sexist'?

Is it because we as a culture associate traditional 'heroism' with a male protagonists?  And have done so for thousands of years?

Actually, that's more or less right.

But why is that?

Almost certainly because of violence. Because pretty much all 'epic' fiction in existence involves violence in some form, and the great majority of epic heroes are warriors. And who are the people who commit violence? Men.

So at some level, female warriors aren't taken as seriously. They certainly aren't taken as seriously in real life. And that includes by me.

I don't know what gender this is more prejudice against. 

Males. It quite clearly states that only males are violent a negative emotion when it is completely untrue.

This is the problem with Sexism, you read that post as "Men are violent" and took it out of context.

He is actually stating that historically men are considered to be the more violent of the 2 sexes and this is the reason they are featured in violent videogames.

He was in no way stating that that was true or his opinion, so read it more closely next time.

Except no only is it not true, women can be just as violent, he then went on to talk about not taking female warriors seriously, which is blatant sexism. 

[Anthadlas]

frankf43 wrote...

David7204 wrote...

frankf43 wrote...

Males. It quite clearly states that only males are violent a negative emotion when it is completely untrue.

First of all, violence isn't negative. We love it in fiction. We should be able to acknowledge it's merits in real life.

Secondly, it's true. Violence is overwhelmingly commited, for lack of a better word, by men.

I have a friend six foot two male who is beaten up mercilessly by his five foot four wife. Not all violence is committed by men.

If you take the time to watch the police programs in Britain you would see that the violent offences taking place on the streets late at night are just as likely to be two females fighting as two males.

He said most violence is commited by men, this is a true fact.
He didn't say women are incapable of violence
The 2 aren't mutually exclusive.

[David7204]

If it's 'blatant sexism' to regard the two sexes differently, so be it. I know good and well the world is full of different standards for men and women. Standards I acknowledge and take part in myself. I'm sure I support many of them.

[frankf43]

Wraith 02 wrote...

frankf43 wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

David7204 wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

David7204 wrote...

Have people considered the deeper reasons as to why male combative characters appeal over female combative characters? Deeper than 'we're all sexist'?

Is it because we as a culture associate traditional 'heroism' with a male protagonists?  And have done so for thousands of years?

Actually, that's more or less right.

But why is that?

Almost certainly because of violence. Because pretty much all 'epic' fiction in existence involves violence in some form, and the great majority of epic heroes are warriors. And who are the people who commit violence? Men.

So at some level, female warriors aren't taken as seriously. They certainly aren't taken as seriously in real life. And that includes by me.

I don't know what gender this is more prejudice against. 

Males. It quite clearly states that only males are violent a negative emotion when it is completely untrue.

This is the problem with Sexism, you read that post as "Men are violent" and took it out of context.

He is actually stating that historically men are considered to be the more violent of the 2 sexes and this is the reason they are featured in violent videogames.

He was in no way stating that that was true or his opinion, so read it more closely next time.

the line I commented on states, "And who commits violence? Men."

Not who is the most violent or who commits the most acts of violence but which of the two sexes is violent.

[Silfren]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Wraith 02 wrote...

This is just getting stupid now, you cannot claim something is sexist, racist or xeneophobic just because every single demographic has not been personally marketed to.

They haven't shown any marketing aimed purely at people who want to play dwarfs yet so obviously Bioware is predjudiced towards short people...

This is a false equivalence.  Further, people take the term a lot more aggressively.  When people point this out to me, I don't go "oh god I'm an awful human being."  I go "are the assumptions that I make actually fair and representative, or is it actually okay to go away from established tropes."  Note, that my perspective on this goes up with every incident that people say "it shouldn't matter" as a defense.

Has no one considered that creating marketing aimed purely at buttering up women is actually more sexist than not including it? You are seperating the female fanbase from the rest of the audience.

If you can find any traces of sexism in Bioware's actual advertising then fine but claiming sexism on potential marketing because it hasn't been released is insane

It's important to note that default options are not apolitical (though many people seem to think that they are).

The unfortunate problem comes when simply adding a female protagonist gets equated to "marketing aimed purely at buttering up women."  Especially when a lot of people tell me that "it shouldn't matter" as a defense of the status quo.

Same mindset is involved with the question of LGBT companions and NPCs, or PoCs.  Marketing toward the LGBT demographic, or the PoC one, through the inclusion of such characters is pandering, fanservice, promoting an agenda.  But somehow marketing toward straight whie people through the inclusion of same is...not pandering, not fanservice, not promoting an agenda.

This issue really isn't all that different.

[David7204]

In every culture and society throughout all of human history, it's men who become warriors and fight battles. I don't know of a single exception. It's men who commit the overwhelmingly majority of homicides and other violent crimes. It's men who make up the vast bulk of participants in violent sports. It's men who tend to enjoy violence in fiction.

Modifié par David7204, 19 novembre 2013 - 07:35 .

[Br3admax]

David7204 wrote...

In every culture and society throughout all of human history, it's men who become warriors and fight battles. I don't know of a single exception. It's men who commit the overwhelmingly majority of homicides and other violent crimes. It's men who make up the vast bulk of participants in violent sports.

And this has nothing to do with women, but the roles assigned to them. Some would say this is bad, but very few will pretend like this isn't why. 

[Anthadlas]

frankf43 wrote...

Wraith 02 wrote...

frankf43 wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

David7204 wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

David7204 wrote...

Have people considered the deeper reasons as to why male combative characters appeal over female combative characters? Deeper than 'we're all sexist'?

Is it because we as a culture associate traditional 'heroism' with a male protagonists?  And have done so for thousands of years?

Actually, that's more or less right.

But why is that?

Almost certainly because of violence. Because pretty much all 'epic' fiction in existence involves violence in some form, and the great majority of epic heroes are warriors. And who are the people who commit violence? Men.

So at some level, female warriors aren't taken as seriously. They certainly aren't taken as seriously in real life. And that includes by me.

I don't know what gender this is more prejudice against. 

Males. It quite clearly states that only males are violent a negative emotion when it is completely untrue.

This is the problem with Sexism, you read that post as "Men are violent" and took it out of context.

He is actually stating that historically men are considered to be the more violent of the 2 sexes and this is the reason they are featured in violent videogames.

He was in no way stating that that was true or his opinion, so read it more closely next time.

the line I commented on states, "And who commits violence? Men."

Not who is the most violent or who commits the most acts of violence but which of the two sexes is violent.

Read back over the posts that were placed before his respone rather than taking it out of context. We are discussing why warriors and soldiers are historically represented as men, even if they are not.

He said because men are violent. In the context of historically and represented in general culture and gaming. He wasn't saying that every man that ever existed commited violence and that no women ever has.

People need to start learning to read an entire conversation instead of joining halfway through and taking offense at comments when they don't know the context it is being used in.

[Steelcan]

David7204 wrote...

 It's men who tend to enjoy violence in fiction.

You were doing oh so well until this.

Humans are pretty universal in our love of watching violence.

[David7204]

Steelcan wrote...

David7204 wrote...

 It's men who tend to enjoy violence in fiction.

You were doing oh so well until this.

Humans are pretty universal in our love of watching violence.

I made sure to use the rather mild phrase of "tend to."

[Anthadlas]

Steelcan wrote...

David7204 wrote...

 It's men who tend to enjoy violence in fiction.

You were doing oh so well until this.

Humans are pretty universal in our love of watching violence.

Again I need to say. "It's men who tend to enjoy violence in fiction" does not mean "All men like violence" or "Women don't like violence"

People need to read a sentece for what it is rather that assuming what it isn't

[Ieldra]

David7204 wrote...

In every culture and society throughout all of human history, it's men who become warriors and fight battles. I don't know of a single exception. It's men who commit the overwhelmingly majority of homicides and other violent crimes. It's men who make up the vast bulk of participants in violent sports.

Perhaps that is so, but whatever the reason, is there any reason why things should remain that way? As I said, there is no intrinsic value in anything just because it has been part of our species' history.

[Steelcan]

Ieldra2 wrote...

David7204 wrote...

In every culture and society throughout all of human history, it's men who become warriors and fight battles. I don't know of a single exception. It's men who commit the overwhelmingly majority of homicides and other violent crimes. It's men who make up the vast bulk of participants in violent sports.

Perhaps that is so, but whatever the reason, is there any reason why things should remain that way? As I said, there is no intrinsic value in anything just because it has been part of our species' history.

Because they have been ingrained into our minds.  Breaking with this creates a dissonance with the audience.

[Ravensword]

Steelcan wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

David7204 wrote...

In every culture and society throughout all of human history, it's men who become warriors and fight battles. I don't know of a single exception. It's men who commit the overwhelmingly majority of homicides and other violent crimes. It's men who make up the vast bulk of participants in violent sports.

Perhaps that is so, but whatever the reason, is there any reason why things should remain that way? As I said, there is no intrinsic value in anything just because it has been part of our species' history.

Because they have been ingrained into our minds.  Breaking with this creates a dissonance with the audience.

That would be unprofitable.

[Anthadlas]

Ieldra2 wrote...

David7204 wrote...

In every culture and society throughout all of human history, it's men who become warriors and fight battles. I don't know of a single exception. It's men who commit the overwhelmingly majority of homicides and other violent crimes. It's men who make up the vast bulk of participants in violent sports.

Perhaps that is so, but whatever the reason, is there any reason why things should remain that way? As I said, there is no intrinsic value in anything just because it has been part of our species' history.

Our history is what makes up our culture and everything in movies, games, music is all based on that culture.
It is stupid to assume that things will always be the same because of what has previously happened but most people cannot see past this.

Men historically are violent and represented as such in our culture. This may not be true today but people will always be referring back to it because people fell uncomfortable accepting things that do not adhere to what they previously know

[RedArmyShogun]

So is there some coherent point to all of this?

[David7204]

Ieldra2 wrote...

David7204 wrote...

In every culture and society throughout all of human history, it's men who become warriors and fight battles. I don't know of a single exception. It's men who commit the overwhelmingly majority of homicides and other violent crimes. It's men who make up the vast bulk of participants in violent sports.

Perhaps that is so, but whatever the reason, is there any reason why things should remain that way? As I said, there is no intrinsic value in anything just because it has been part of our species' history.

The same reason things are that way in the first place.

Believe me, I'd love that. But I seriously doubt it's going to happen.

[frankf43]

David7204 wrote...

In every culture and society throughout all of human history, it's men who become warriors and fight battles. I don't know of a single exception. It's men who commit the overwhelmingly majority of homicides and other violent crimes. It's men who make up the vast bulk of participants in violent sports. It's men who tend to enjoy violence in fiction.

for the most part that is correct. There were a few European countries who had women serving in their armies around the Roman times. One of the most well known is the British with Boudica.

[Iakus]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Fact of the matter is that most game developers are male. So we get the generalised and perfect view on men from a male perspective and also perfect women from a male perspective. Hence why most are always attractive.

This isn't a good thing, and is much more reflective of a HOST of very serious issues (right down to how a lot of people treat women in technology). It also helps cement a self-fulfilling prophecy.

As a gamer and a developer, I see this as bad for the continued growth and diversification of gaming.

And sadly, this is something many game developers, even Bioware, are guilty of.  Not just in marketing a game, but in how characters are portrayed in-game as well.  Catsuits and whatnot.

[Allan Schumacher]

Br3ad wrote...

David7204 wrote...

In every culture and society throughout all of human history, it's men who become warriors and fight battles. I don't know of a single exception. It's men who commit the overwhelmingly majority of homicides and other violent crimes. It's men who make up the vast bulk of participants in violent sports.

And this has nothing to do with women, but the roles assigned to them. Some would say this is bad, but very few will pretend like this isn't why. 

Agreed, and this starts to shift away from the topic and far too much towards even MORE controversial topics.

Lets keep this about gaming please.

[Cainhurst Crow]

Ieldra2 wrote...

David7204 wrote...

In every culture and society throughout all of human history, it's men who become warriors and fight battles. I don't know of a single exception. It's men who commit the overwhelmingly majority of homicides and other violent crimes. It's men who make up the vast bulk of participants in violent sports.

Perhaps that is so, but whatever the reason, is there any reason why things should remain that way? As I said, there is no intrinsic value in anything just because it has been part of our species' history.

Hawaii and many island nations had men and woman both fight in battle, part of the reason westerners called us savage. Japan had an entire warrior profession of woman who served primarily as guards but would also fight in major battles if need be.

Don't know what kind of research david did to conclude that there have never been a culturally accepted female fighting force without exception,  but it probably wasn't done well.

[MissOuJ]

Silfren wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Has no one considered that creating marketing aimed purely at buttering up women is actually more sexist than not including it? You are seperating the female fanbase from the rest of the audience.

If you can find any traces of sexism in Bioware's actual advertising then fine but claiming sexism on potential marketing because it hasn't been released is insane

It's important to note that default options are not apolitical (though many people seem to think that they are).

The unfortunate problem comes when simply adding a female protagonist gets equated to "marketing aimed purely at buttering up women."  Especially when a lot of people tell me that "it shouldn't matter" as a defense of the status quo.

Same mindset is involved with the question of LGBT companions and NPCs, or PoCs.  Marketing toward the LGBT demographic, or the PoC one, through the inclusion of such characters is pandering, fanservice, promoting an agenda.  But somehow marketing toward straight whie people through the inclusion of same is...not pandering, not fanservice, not promoting an agenda.

This issue really isn't all that different.

This is an excellent point. Very well put. It is also important to remember that LGBT gamers and gamers who are POC should also be included in the promo material and advertising.

[Anthadlas]

frankf43 wrote...

David7204 wrote...

In every culture and society throughout all of human history, it's men who become warriors and fight battles. I don't know of a single exception. It's men who commit the overwhelmingly majority of homicides and other violent crimes. It's men who make up the vast bulk of participants in violent sports. It's men who tend to enjoy violence in fiction.

for the most part that is correct. There were a few European countries who had women serving in their armies around the Roman times. One of the most well known is the British with Boudica.

Most of that was because they had no choice but to fight whilst being invaded. The British never took female soldiers oversees to fight in wars.