311 réponses à ce sujet

[Steelcan]

MissOuJ wrote...


This is an excellent point. Very well put. It is also important to remember that LGBT gamers and gamers who are POC should also be included in the promo material and advertising.

Why?

There is no economic incentive to advertise towards a relatively small part of the market. 

Diversity isn't needed in the trailers, its needed in the game.

[Br3admax]

I play both genders occasional so switch the default if you wish, if that is the topic.

And as to the posts above: You're all special little snowflakes, and nobody's better than anybody.

[David7204]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

David7204 wrote...

In every culture and society throughout all of human history, it's men who become warriors and fight battles. I don't know of a single exception. It's men who commit the overwhelmingly majority of homicides and other violent crimes. It's men who make up the vast bulk of participants in violent sports.

And this has nothing to do with women, but the roles assigned to them. Some would say this is bad, but very few will pretend like this isn't why. 

Agreed, and this starts to shift away from the topic and far too much towards even MORE controversial topics.

Lets keep this about gaming please.

We can't really talk about the phenomenon in video games without examining its roots in real life...

It's not why.

Modifié par David7204, 19 novembre 2013 - 07:54 .

[Allan Schumacher]

iakus wrote...

And sadly, this is something many game developers, even Bioware, are guilty of.  Not just in marketing a game, but in how characters are portrayed in-game as well.  Catsuits and whatnot.

Indeed.  There are a lot of things that could be done better.

That's not to say attractive women (or men) can never be done.  But if the point of putting someone into a catsuit (or bikini platemail) comes across as nothing more than "just because" then I don't see it as a good thing.

[Anthadlas]

MissOuJ wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Has no one considered that creating marketing aimed purely at buttering up women is actually more sexist than not including it? You are seperating the female fanbase from the rest of the audience.

If you can find any traces of sexism in Bioware's actual advertising then fine but claiming sexism on potential marketing because it hasn't been released is insane

It's important to note that default options are not apolitical (though many people seem to think that they are).

The unfortunate problem comes when simply adding a female protagonist gets equated to "marketing aimed purely at buttering up women."  Especially when a lot of people tell me that "it shouldn't matter" as a defense of the status quo.

Same mindset is involved with the question of LGBT companions and NPCs, or PoCs.  Marketing toward the LGBT demographic, or the PoC one, through the inclusion of such characters is pandering, fanservice, promoting an agenda.  But somehow marketing toward straight whie people through the inclusion of same is...not pandering, not fanservice, not promoting an agenda.

This issue really isn't all that different.

This is an excellent point. Very well put. It is also important to remember that LGBT gamers and gamers who are POC should also be included in the promo material and advertising.

Oh god don't start that. Do you really think that LGBT are watching adverts waiting to see references towards the characters sexual preference before they buy a game?

I can't imagine an advert where Shepard is fighting and stops mid trailer to wink at another soldier just to point out the fact that it's possible to be gay xD

[Savber100]

Why is it so hard to find a balance?

Yes, women are portrayed horrendously in games.

Yes, lets focus on writing better females of various diversities

Yes, lets write strong females, weak females, beautiful females, ugly females... (Problem is that we still can't really figure out how to write good male characters yet as most are still a bunch of macho-thick heads).

What's exactly is the issue here?

I don't like how Anita PRESENTS her points but she does have a point.

Marketing-wise, I feel she was a bit harsh just because I'm sure any marketing department would love to market to every age and gender if they had unlimited funds.

[David7204]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Indeed.  There are a lot of things that could be done better.

That's not to say attractive women (or men) can never be done.  But if the point of putting someone into a catsuit (or bikini platemail) comes across as nothing more than "just because" then I don't see it as a good thing.

For outfits or characteristics that fundamentally detract from some other element of the character, maybe.

But I absolutely want characters to be attractive 'just because.'

Modifié par David7204, 19 novembre 2013 - 07:58 .

[Inquisitor Recon]

A company isn't required and shouldn't be required to market to anybody in particular, but Bioware did do some marketing with FemShep despite the fact that is not their largest audience. There is no problem here, only another manufactured issue by a fraud reporter. Ignore her and she will hopefully go away.

[Steelcan]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

iakus wrote...

And sadly, this is something many game developers, even Bioware, are guilty of.  Not just in marketing a game, but in how characters are portrayed in-game as well.  Catsuits and whatnot.

Indeed.  There are a lot of things that could be done better.

That's not to say attractive women (or men) can never be done.  But if the point of putting someone into a catsuit (or bikini platemail) comes across as nothing more than "just because" then I don't see it as a good thing.

characterization apparently is its primary function

[Anthadlas]

Ravensword wrote...

greengoron89 wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

greengoron89 wrote...

*yawn*

More leftist propaganda. I'm not much on forcing creators to compromise their work just to make a vocal minority happy.

-image snip-

Wow, how profound.

Then again, it's you I'm talking to.

Tell us again how liberals have a stranglehold on the US.

Don't bring US politics into this, Most of us couldn't give a crap who is running your country atm

[Br3admax]

David7204 wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

David7204 wrote...

In every culture and society throughout all of human history, it's men who become warriors and fight battles. I don't know of a single exception. It's men who commit the overwhelmingly majority of homicides and other violent crimes. It's men who make up the vast bulk of participants in violent sports.

And this has nothing to do with women, but the roles assigned to them. Some would say this is bad, but very few will pretend like this isn't why. 

Agreed, and this starts to shift away from the topic and far too much towards even MORE controversial topics.

Lets keep this about gaming please.

We can't really talk about the phenomenon in video games without examining its roots in real life...

It's not why.

We're all waiting for your explanation then, David. Please enlighten us. 

[Steelcan]

greengoron89 wrote...

Ravensword wrote...

greengoron89 wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

greengoron89 wrote...

*yawn*

More leftist propaganda. I'm not much on forcing creators to compromise their work just to make a vocal minority happy.

-image snip-

Wow, how profound.

Then again, it's you I'm talking to.

Tell us again how liberals have a stranglehold on the US.

You really don't want me to do that.

Ohh tell me about how atheists are ruining the world, I loved hearing that one

Modifié par Steelcan, 19 novembre 2013 - 08:00 .

[Allan Schumacher]

David7204 wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Indeed.  There are a lot of things that could be done better.

That's not to say attractive women (or men) can never be done.  But if the point of putting someone into a catsuit (or bikini platemail) comes across as nothing more than "just because" then I don't see it as a good thing.

For outfits or characteristics that fundamentally detract from some other element of the character, maybe.

But I absolutely want characters to be attractive 'just because.'

I didn't make any comment about characters being attractive "just because" but was focusing on outfits, specifically.  I like variation.

[MissOuJ]

Steelcan wrote...

MissOuJ wrote...


This is an excellent point. Very well put. It is also important to remember that LGBT gamers and gamers who are POC should also be included in the promo material and advertising.

Why?

There is no economic incentive to advertise towards a relatively small part of the market. 

Diversity isn't needed in the trailers, its needed in the game.

The one doesn't cancel the other out: we could have both.

Also, since the white / male / straight market is catered to (prime example: DA2 launch trailer), why not also include material - even if its just peripheral - targeted at other groups? What makes producing three trailers targeted at just one demographic (straight, white male) superior to producing a more diverse, more inclusive marketing campaign that targets several demographics?

When you exclude demographics from your marketing, they're less likely to pick up your product. However, I suspect a more diverse marketing campaign would scare away the "majority", since they are never excluded completely.

[Cyonan]

Out of curiosity, is there any evidence supporting the claims of men outnumbering women in specific genres? The only thing I can remember off the top of my head is that the split overall is roughly 50/50, and a quick Google search shows similar results however they don't get into specific genres or even the more hardcore gaming vs social/mobile games.

Also, making female characters the "default" character does not solve anything OP.

That's not equality. Equality would be the game showing you both options at the character creation screen and letting you choose which one you want.

If we want to be equal, then let's be equal. Let's not elevate one side above the other simply because the other has had it a lot better and been the standard for years.

[Silfren]

Steelcan wrote...

Silfren wrote...



Mostly, the objections against the OP in this thread read rather a lot to me as if men are objecting to the possibility of having to face the same reality of dismissal and erasure that women have had to put up with since forever.  I do not for a moment believe that any of the men here who object that this is a non-issue would actually feel that way were the situation reversed. 

It's easy to believe that there isn't a real problem when you are part of the dominant group not adversely affected by it.  Of course you're not going to be able to see why there's an issue.  But I do feel that part of the motivation for the need to shout down this ongoing discussion is that men are secretly afraid of learning what it feels like to be treated like an add-on rather than the default.

There is going to be a default, you can't just have black hole where a protagonist should be in trailers and promotional meterial.

Since most people play Male protagonists (even when the option of a female protagonist appears the numbers are still heavily male skewed) they are going to get marketing that appeals to their tastes. 

Its just the way it works.  Now if you want to change societal perceptions of female protagonists in video games thats another issue.

But I don't see the slightest evidence that having Sheploo in a trailer is sexist.

But it IS valid to ask the question of whether the greater preference to play male protagonists isn't caused by marketing, by the fact that games are always been skewed toward male players to begin with.  As Allan said, it's a chicken or the egg question.  I don't think that marketing's influence on people's preferences can be discounted as the cause rather than the effect.

It's not just the way it works, because there's no small degree of "Self-fulfilling prophecy" taking place.

Finally,having Sheploo in a trailer isn't inherently sexist, no, but unless I've completely misunderstood, nobody has actually argued that it is. What has been said argued that the practice of nearly always using male PCs to promote games, of having male PCs as the default, is demonstrative of sexist assumptions.

[Billy-the-Squid]

MissOuJ wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Has no one considered that creating marketing aimed purely at buttering up women is actually more sexist than not including it? You are seperating the female fanbase from the rest of the audience.

If you can find any traces of sexism in Bioware's actual advertising then fine but claiming sexism on potential marketing because it hasn't been released is insane

It's important to note that default options are not apolitical (though many people seem to think that they are).

The unfortunate problem comes when simply adding a female protagonist gets equated to "marketing aimed purely at buttering up women."  Especially when a lot of people tell me that "it shouldn't matter" as a defense of the status quo.

Same mindset is involved with the question of LGBT companions and NPCs, or PoCs.  Marketing toward the LGBT demographic, or the PoC one, through the inclusion of such characters is pandering, fanservice, promoting an agenda.  But somehow marketing toward straight whie people through the inclusion of same is...not pandering, not fanservice, not promoting an agenda.

This issue really isn't all that different.

This is an excellent point. Very well put. It is also important to remember that LGBT gamers and gamers who are POC should also be included in the promo material and advertising.

That is so patently stupid only someone intellectually barren would would consider it anything more than facetious.

When 80% of your market demographic is male and your upper management make comments of people voting for them in the worst company of the year award using veiled refrences to them being homophobic. It looks like pandering and disengeneuous scape goating because it is.  

[Allan Schumacher]

Br3ad wrote...

David7204 wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

David7204 wrote...

In every culture and society throughout all of human history, it's men who become warriors and fight battles. I don't know of a single exception. It's men who commit the overwhelmingly majority of homicides and other violent crimes. It's men who make up the vast bulk of participants in violent sports.

And this has nothing to do with women, but the roles assigned to them. Some would say this is bad, but very few will pretend like this isn't why. 

Agreed, and this starts to shift away from the topic and far too much towards even MORE controversial topics.

Lets keep this about gaming please.

We can't really talk about the phenomenon in video games without examining its roots in real life...

It's not why.

We're all waiting for your explanation then, David. Please enlighten us. 

Given I asked him not to....

[AresKeith]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

David7204 wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Indeed.  There are a lot of things that could be done better.

That's not to say attractive women (or men) can never be done.  But if the point of putting someone into a catsuit (or bikini platemail) comes across as nothing more than "just because" then I don't see it as a good thing.

For outfits or characteristics that fundamentally detract from some other element of the character, maybe.

But I absolutely want characters to be attractive 'just because.'

I didn't make any comment about characters being attractive "just because" but was focusing on outfits, specifically.  I like variation.

Yea, I feel putting certain outfits on characters (i.e catsuits) just because their attractive is going a bit overboard 

[Beerfish]

Some people are out of touch with reality as to the choices that women make in how they dress and often try and use the exact opposite of reality to lay blame in video games.

[Iakus]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

iakus wrote...

And sadly, this is something many game developers, even Bioware, are guilty of.  Not just in marketing a game, but in how characters are portrayed in-game as well.  Catsuits and whatnot.

Indeed.  There are a lot of things that could be done better.

That's not to say attractive women (or men) can never be done.  But if the point of putting someone into a catsuit (or bikini platemail) comes across as nothing more than "just because" then I don't see it as a good thing.

Agreed.

Leliana could be a perfectly attractive woman without the "stab here" scoop in her leather armor (while Zevran remained buttoned up)

And the less said about Ashley's tranformation from ME1-ME3 the better. 

I firmly believe that outfits can look both functional and stylish.  Neither needs to be sacrificed.  An attractive looking character can wear armor and look good without either strategically placed gaps or be tight enough to leave no doubt the model is anatomically correct.

[David7204]

Cyonan wrote...

Out of curiosity, is there any evidence supporting the claims of men outnumbering women in specific genres? The only thing I can remember off the top of my head is that the split overall is roughly 50/50, and a quick Google search shows similar results however they don't get into specific genres or even the more hardcore gaming vs social/mobile games.

Also, making female characters the "default" character does not solve anything OP.

That's not equality. Equality would be the game showing you both options at the character creation screen and letting you choose which one you want.

If we want to be equal, then let's be equal. Let's not elevate one side above the other simply because the other has had it a lot better and been the standard for years.

There's common knowledge. Common knowledge that just about every young male in America plays video games in some form of fashion. And that while many young females do, many don't.

[OdanUrr]

TipsLeFedora wrote...

Wtf is happening here. How did this turn into cons vs liberal? Da:I forums man...

Lol, this is the Off-Topic section.

Do carry on, please.

[Steelcan]

MissOuJ wrote...
The one doesn't cancel the other out: we could have both.

Also, since the white / male / straight market is catered to (prime example: DA2 launch trailer), why not also include material - even if its just peripheral - targeted at other groups? What makes producing three trailers targeted at just one demographic (straight, white male) superior to producing a more diverse, more inclusive marketing campaign that targets several demographics?

When you exclude demographics from your marketing, they're less likely to pick up your product. However, I suspect a more diverse marketing campaign would scare away the "majority", since they are never excluded completely.

The issue is that all of that costs money.

The central core demographic is always going to get the most money spent on courting it for obvious reasons.  Spending the extra pretty penny on courting other demogrpahics may pad your reputation with those demographics but it makes less economic sense.