311 réponses à ce sujet

[Estelindis]

shinyelf wrote...

But whatcharacter would go first, the male or the female?(Please note that no matter which gender you pick im calling sexism)

Well they've already shown the male protagonist first, so that question is already answered...  

[Sanunes]

Personally until she changes her approach I no longer care what Anita Sarkeesian says, she seems to focus purely on the negative approach instead of giving some encouragement to what has been done. How many games that have the option of choosing a character's gender have any advertising for a female character? BioWare has some and from what is said here (I can only base my comment based on what has been said here since I stopped watching her videos) she decides that is something to use as how poorly women are presented, what would have been better is talking about how its the first step in the direction it should become.

[Pressedcat]

Xilizhra wrote...

The question is; is it a question of sexism or is it a case of consumerism, conservatism and risk aversion?

By no means does it have to be either/or.

It is entirley probable that it is elements of both; after all gaming has generally been perceived as a predominantly male past-time, so the assumption is always there that the key demographc they need to target their advertising to should also be male. I have absolutley no idea what the true demographic of gamers is like, so I wouldn't care to speculate on the game designers' motivations.

It is a little combatative to throw round terms like sexist or racist without any genuine data to back it up. As an earlier poster said, game advertising is not about equality but about maximising sales and brand recognition. It's a bit of an oversimplification to attribute it to sexism alone. Anita Sarkeesian can raise some good points, but too often it can feel like she is seeking and interpreting examples to support her agenda rather than impartially analysing a fair sample of games, calling foul where developers let themselves down, but acknowledging where developers have made a choice for reasons other than being dirty sexists. With all the examples of sexism, racism, homophobia etc that are still present in certain games and other entertainment, it undermines her arguments even more when she resorts to giving contorted interptretations of pretty innoccous game aspects in order to further her points. She needs a decent editor to go through her videos and focus her arguments where they are genuinely applicable, whilst cutting out some of the padding and unsubstantiated opinion. She's almost become a victim of her own start-up success, feeling obligated to produce far more videos than she perhaps had material for.

[Ianamus]

Chaos Hammer wrote...

If feminism is not a bad thing then you are a hypocrite. Feminism is the exact opposite of Misogyny(male superiority not sure if that's the right word) I'm all for equality... but that means you don't get to whine because "hey, we think the guy model would be better fit for this part" or the opposite. Switzerland pissed me off in this regard recently. The are trying to pass a bill that mandates 30% of the seats in board rooms are women... that's beyond assanine. The position should go to the 'best" candidate regaurdless of sex, race, or whatever else, this kind of thinking just is a reversal of the oppressor.... strong word... just couldn't think of a slighter one 

You are completely wrong. 

The exact opposite of misogyny is misandry.

The dictionary definition of Femenism is: "the doctrine advocating social, political and all other rights equal to those of men."

Those board mandates are positive discrimination, which is a controversial topic related to, but not the same as, feminism and not relevant to the subject matter here at all: equal representation of female protagonists in Bioware games. 

Modifié par EJ107, 19 novembre 2013 - 03:44 .

[Boost32]

RedIntifada wrote...
Actually your game data is here http://webcache.goog...lient=firefox-a

And it lists 48% of gamers being women but then lists the top 20 video games by units sold and guess what all those mobile and social network games aren't in there. So unless some how that 48% of gamers has a broader taste in games then men so that none of the games they play get into the top 20, which would have to be a MUCH broader selection or those games werent being purchased as much by men or women... or for some reason the survey of which games people purchased and the survey of which gender gamer are you was done seperatly (which seems highly unlikely as they usually collect the data at one time)

OR and this is the most likely option... they actually went into a regular game shop that sells the sorts of games listed and found that actually women gamers tend to (surprise surprise) buy the same sorts of games that men do with some variation.

The idea that only male gamers dominate console games is a myth, used to justify sexism in games. 

where its said that mobile and social games dont count?
its not a myth its the truth. if its was a myth why maleShep was more played than femShep? Only because its a default? do you really think 30% of female gamers would just go with the dafault?

[Dave of Canada]

Never mind, I'm abandoning this thread. If I wanted to argue about feminism, I'd go on tumblr.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 19 novembre 2013 - 03:44 .

[RedIntifada]

Sanunes wrote...

Personally until she changes her approach I no longer care what Anita Sarkeesian says, she seems to focus purely on the negative approach instead of giving some encouragement to what has been done. How many games that have the option of choosing a character's gender have any advertising for a female character? BioWare has some and from what is said here (I can only base my comment based on what has been said here since I stopped watching her videos) she decides that is something to use as how poorly women are presented, what would have been better is talking about how its the first step in the direction it should become.

aww you think that in 2013 to have significantly less but some representation deserves a cookie? Yes other games are worse and if you actually check what she says she acknowledges the game experience is near identical for male and female avitars and actually comments on how Jennifer Hale gives a great performance. After the bit about ME she also goes on to give examples of games that go even better towards actual equality.

But, I do have to laugh at the idea that people in oppressed groups are mean or hostile because they dare criticise why in the 21st century we are still having these discussions. Sarkeesian actually enjoys playing videogames and as she always points out at the start of her video's it is possible to enjoy things while being critical of them... but that doesn't seem to be enough for some, who shut down any discussion of sexism in gaming as though it is an area of gaming that cant be crticised like every other aspect of gaming, A woman gave GTA V a 9 out of 10.... 9 out of 10 but raised the way women were treated and as a result people said she wasn't "positive enough" 9 out of 10... really should we be silent on sexism just because people get a lot of other stuff right? http://www.mcvuk.com...isogyny/0121238

[Fast Jimmy]

Also it would be great if the default option on character building menues didn't default to male. I could be wrong but most (if not all) RPG games that I have played have the default option (i.e. the one the cursor starts on) as male which probably increases the statistic to male. The majority of people probably played soldiers on ME3 for the same reason.

To take a step back from what I'm sure would be a delightful conversation, I feel like this is something worth pointing out. I'd like it if race, appearance, class and sex were all randomized at the character creation process. Male Human Noble Warrior we are told are the most often selected character types according to Bioware's metric reporting. Is that because gamers prefer to play as male warriors and choose human as their race most often when given the option... or is it that this was the "default" option selected for the player, so that's what most players wound up playing as?

I'd prefer a totally randomized set of choices at each start up to test this concept.

[Pressedcat]

TheChris92 wrote...

She's been the victim of undeserving harassment, due to a lot of gamers feeling threatened over her opinion on a sensitive topic. It's only natural she'd remove the comment section, because expecting anything rational from Youtube commenters is asking for too much. I haven't seen this video of hers, but I believe that the subject itself is worthy of discussion.

There are plenty of geniune criticisms to be made of her videos, as she is far from an impartial observer, and sometimes her agenda gets the better of her arguments. But as you say, the Youtube comments section is hardly the place for rational discussion, and invairably her comments sections turned into far better examples of current-day sexism than the 8-bit games she so often used.

Oh the irony!

[Ianamus]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Also it would be great if the default option on character building menues didn't default to male. I could be wrong but most (if not all) RPG games that I have played have the default option (i.e. the one the cursor starts on) as male which probably increases the statistic to male. The majority of people probably played soldiers on ME3 for the same reason.

To take a step back from what I'm sure would be a delightful conversation, I feel like this is something worth pointing out. I'd like it if race, appearance, class and sex were all randomized at the character creation process. Male Human Noble Warrior we are told are the most often selected character types according to Bioware's metric reporting. Is that because gamers prefer to play as male warriors and choose human as their race most often when given the option... or is it that this was the "default" option selected for the player, so that's what most players wound up playing as?

I'd prefer a totally randomized set of choices at each start up to test this concept.

I've also always been curious as to what effect this has on statistics. Particuarly in games like Mass Effect 1, where it wasn't even clear that you could change the characters gender or class unless you knew in advance. I'm still sure the reason male soldier was so near-universal was because a lot of people just went with the default, maybe not even knowing other options were available. 

Modifié par EJ107, 19 novembre 2013 - 03:53 .

[ruggly]

A laundry list of negatives does not a good arguement make.

[Ruadh]

Wait, what's the argument here? Since gamers are split about equally between gender lines, game companies shouldn't target their PCs towards a default male audience, cause that would be sexist. Instead they should target their PCs towards a default female audience, cause that wouldn't be sexist.

Did I get it right? (I feel like I'm recycling my own posts)

I'm gonna throw out some assumptions here. (I apologise in advance if I offend) First I'm gonna assume that game companies make their PCs default male, not out of misogyny or lack of care for the female fanbase, but to keep everything easy and simple. Create one canon protaginist to be the posterboy. That way you avoid the 'Why not female instead?' or 'Why is it always a white guy?' or 'Why an american everytime?' Since its historically been a male majority I guess its just the safe bet to go male default when promoting.

Secondly, I'm gonna assume that the majority of gamers go default gender, default class because they are casual gamers and/or couldn't give a crap. I doubt they go male soldier as some sorta internal protest at the audacity of a default male like the OP seems to hint at. It's like the thing you're after is in the game, but not in the order you like. So the best way to fix is to keep the same problem but in a different manner, cause that would solve everything.

I'd like to see more catering towards the female fanbase, there's absolutely no reason why there shouldn't be. But simply switching the focus from male to female has to be the dumbest way to go about it.

PS. Rugglys avi is ME3s ghost boy being hit. An extremely far stretch from the glorification of abuse towards woman in video games.

PPS. The term Femshep was a nickname coined by loyal and enthusiast female Shepard supporters. The same way male Shep got the nickname Sheploo. Not everything is an attempt at misogyny.

[Ianamus]

ruggly wrote...

A laundry list of negatives does not a good arguement make.

Well, in her defense she does always give examples of what she considers to be positive representations at the end of the video's. 

ginner dave wrote...

Wait, what's the argument here? Since gamers are split about equally between gender lines, game companies shouldn't target their PCs towards a default male audience, cause that would be sexist. Instead they should target their PCs towards a default female audience, cause that wouldn't be sexist.

Did I get it right? (I feel like I'm recycling my own posts)

I'm gonna throw out some assumptions here. (I apologise in advance if I offend) First I'm gonna assume that game companies make their PCs default male, not out of misogyny or lack of care for the female fanbase, but to keep everything easy and simple. Create one canon protaginist to be the posterboy. That way you avoid the 'Why not female instead?' or 'Why is it always a white guy?' or 'Why an american everytime?' Since its historically been a male majority I guess its just the safe bet to go male default when promoting.

Secondly, I'm gonna assume that the majority of gamers go default gender, default class because they are casual gamers and/or couldn't give a crap. I doubt they go male soldier as some sorta internal protest at the audacity of a default male like the OP seems to hint at. It's like the thing you're after is in the game, but not in the order you like. So the best way to fix is to keep the same problem but in a different manner, cause that would solve everything.

I'd like to see more catering towards the female fanbase, there's absolutely no reason why there shouldn't be. But simply switching the focus from male to female has to be the dumbest way to go about it.

PS. Rugglys avi is ME3s ghost boy being hit. An extremely far stretch from the glorification of abuse towards woman in video games. 

PPS. The term Femshep was a nickname coined by loyal and enthusiast female Shepard supporters. The same way male Shep got the nickname Sheploo. Not everything is an attempt at misogyny.

I think the basic argument was this: While Female Shepard is a really cool character the marketing for the Mass Effect games rendered her as nothing but an afterthought female counterpart to the default hero, rather than a protagonist and charcter in her own right. 

While obviously she isn't like this in the games I have to agree that the marketing did a poor job regarding femshep. Speaking from experience, I didn't even know it was possible to play as a woman until my friend told me. In fact I didn't even know it was possible to play as anything other than default Shepard until my friend told me, and until then I had no interest in the game. 

Modifié par EJ107, 19 novembre 2013 - 04:01 .

[Fast Jimmy]

EntropicAngel wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

To take a step back from what I'm sure would be a delightful conversation, I feel like this is something worth pointing out. I'd like it if race, appearance, class and sex were all randomized at the character creation process. Male Human Noble Warrior we are told are the most often selected character types according to Bioware's metric reporting. Is that because gamers prefer to play as male warriors and choose human as their race most often when given the option... or is it that this was the "default" option selected for the player, so that's what most players wound up playing as?

I'd prefer a totally randomized set of choices at each start up to test this concept.

this is a great idea, though they'd likely need a "don't like the character you ended up with? start new and pick a different one!" loading screen tip.

Well, that's not what I meant. And, to give credit where credit is due, this is a suggestion I heard first from Sylvius.

I was talking about the cursor to make your selection. If you fire up DA:O, the cursor starts on Male, just as it starts on the Noble Human origin. For DA2, the cursor starts on male and over the Warrior. 

People will often just select whatever they are given and want to skip the entire character creation process. So if you randomized where these cursors started (or, perhaps, randomized where the chocies were and had the cursors start in the same place - same end result), then I would be interested in seeing the results. I am definitely not advocating a "when you fire up the game, the game makes the decision of what character you play" type of scenario.

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 19 novembre 2013 - 04:33 .

[Xilizhra]

EntropicAngel wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

They can, yes, but this is a matter of convincing bottom line-obsessed executives to be sneakily led into doing the right thing.

I'm not sure how "the right thing" is their job (it's not).

Irrelevant; the more people who do so, the better.

[Fast Jimmy]

Xilizhra wrote...

Oh the irony!

Perhaps... that's the point all along.

That YouTube is a poor venue for anything more subtstantial than "We'll bang, okay?' type videos? I agree.

[Jeremiah12LGeek]

I'm not even going to read through the handful of pages in this one.

If someone is upset at having to click a button once, in order to select a female character, then they have 1) way too much time on their hands, and a seriously out of whack set of priorities.

[RedIntifada]

ginner dave wrote...

PS. Rugglys avi is ME3s ghost boy being hit. An extremely far stretch from the glorification of abuse towards woman in video games.

PPS. The term Femshep was a nickname coined by loyal and enthusiast female Shepard supporters. The same way male Shep got the nickname Sheploo. Not everything is an attempt at misogyny.

I will apologise for not being able to see the former from my screen it looked like Kasumi. In terms of the FemShep being labled by enthusiasts that is acknowledged in the video but it still generates the "ms" trope i.e that fem is different from the norm which is male and men can have lots of characteristics and traits (such as having loo on the end of their name) but that the female is defined simply by her being female.

Again as in my OP the discussion on ME is at 19.55 on the video, it literally only goes for 2-3 minutes and I encourage people to watch it.

[GreyLycanTrope]

Yes the advertising tactics of video games are typically male oriented as the industry at large hasn't updated their marketing policy in ages http://www.eurogamer...le-protagonists. I wouldn't call it out right sexism though more of an oversight or misunderstanding when trying to appeal to their fanbases. I personally greatly appreciate David Gaider's(around the 25:30 mark) view on the subject.

Modifié par Greylycantrope, 19 novembre 2013 - 04:03 .

[daveliam]

Chaos Hammer wrote...

If feminism is not a bad thing then you are a hypocrite. Feminism is the exact opposite of Misogyny(male superiority not sure if that's the right word) I'm all for equality... but that means you don't get to whine because "hey, we think the guy model would be better fit for this part" or the opposite. Switzerland pissed me off in this regard recently. The are trying to pass a bill that mandates 30% of the seats in board rooms are women... that's beyond assanine. The position should go to the 'best" candidate regaurdless of sex, race, or whatever else, this kind of thinking just is a reversal of the oppressor.... strong word... just couldn't think of a slighter one 

Nope.  Feminisim is the idea that women and men should be treated equally.  NOT that females should be superior to men.  The issue that you bring up about "best candidates" is only valid if both men and women have equal chances to get the job in the first place (which they don't). 

Anita Sarkeesian's point is that the marketing of the ME series placed Sheploo as the default and Femshep as the "variant".  She was using it as an example of how a company chose to use the male as the norm in their marketing.  She then goes on to state that they did start to use Femshep later in the series for marketing, but never in the mass marketing (only on the web released trailer and the inside cover of the game).  I think her points are valid, frankly, because in the Dragaon Age series, the trailers have ONLY had male protagonists so far.  Maybe she has a point.

[Fast Jimmy]

RedIntifada wrote...

But, I do have to laugh at the idea that people in oppressed groups are mean or hostile because they dare criticise why in the 21st century we are still having these discussions. Sarkeesian actually enjoys playing videogames and as she always points out at the start of her video's it is possible to enjoy things while being critical of them... 

While I agree that the video game industry can do more to advance things like racial diversity, gender representation and a genuinely more open and accepting atmosphere... saying ANY gamer who has the disposable income and freedom to spend hours playing a game is "oppressed" is likely going to seem insanely disinegnious to me. 

This is a real first world problem... but it is TOTALLY a first world problem - "the escapist luxury activity I do for fun and serves no other purpose for my daily existence doesn't have COMMERCIALS with characters that look like me!!!" You'll get much more real sympathy and support from me when approach this exactly as it is - something the industry can do better... not something on the level of Darfur or real life abuses and oppression.

[Xilizhra]

This is a real first world problem... but it is TOTALLY a first world problem - "the escapist luxury activity I do for fun and serves no other purpose for my daily existence doesn't have COMMERCIALS with characters that look like me!!!" You'll get much more real sympathy and support from me when approach this exactly as it is - something the industry can do better... not something on the level of Darfur or real life abuses and oppression.

And what's being done? Simply talking about it, not creating multimillion-dollar nonprofits to deal with the damage being caused by it, such as with Darfur. The response is proportionate to the cause.