311 réponses à ce sujet

[daveliam]

Jeremiah12LGeek wrote...

I'm not even going to read through the handful of pages in this one.

If someone is upset at having to click a button once, in order to select a female character, then they have 1) way too much time on their hands, and a seriously out of whack set of priorities.

Well, this shows why you sholud always read through the pages before posting since your comment is completely unrelated to the point of the thread.  It has nothing to do with having to click a button to select a female character. 

[Milan92]

TheChris92 wrote...

She's been the victim of undeserving harassment, due to a lot of gamers feeling threatened over her opinion on a sensitive topic. It's only natural she'd remove the comment section, because expecting anything rational from Youtube commenters is asking for too much. I haven't seen this video of hers, but I believe that the subject itself is worthy of discussion.

This. I do not agree with her viewpoints most of the time, but getting harassed for an opinion is just wrong.

[RedIntifada]

[/quote]
I was talking about the cursor to make your selection. If you fire up DA:O, the cursor starts on Male, just as it starts on the Noble Human origin. for DA2, the cursor starts on male and over the Warrior. 

People will often just select whatever they are given and want to skip the entire character creation process. So if you randomized where these cursors started (or, perhaps, randomized where the chocies were and had the cursos start in the same place - same end result), then I would be interested in seeing the results. I am definitely not advocating a "when you fire up the game, the game makes the decision of what character you play" type of scenario.
[/quote]

Sometimes I buy a game and have to go to work so I cant do the full character creation thing including appearance etc but I will start a new game in default settings just to watch the opening clip and feel the mechanics because I am excited and want to get my head around them....

I then later that night go back and create a character that I will want to spend 100 hours on... both of those two characters I created would equally count in bioware's statics though I am guessing... it would be good to know the stats of characters that completed the games seperate from those who only just started.

[Fast Jimmy]

daveliam wrote...
She then goes on to state that they did start to use Femshep later in the series for marketing, but never in the mass marketing (only on the web released trailer and the inside cover of the game).  I think her points are valid, frankly, because in the Dragaon Age series, the trailers have ONLY had male protagonists so far.  Maybe she has a point.

And I'll back off the subject with saying it would be better if the DA team didn't use ANY protagonist AT ALL when promoting the game.

Why a company who sinks TONS of resources and assets into giving a different experience, both in terms of gameplay and story, for creating different character types, would then try and push a set character in their start up screen (let alone their marketting) is insane to me. That's like having a First Person Shooter commercial where there isn't a single gun. Or a FIFA game without showing a single ball. It's a core part of the experience and one that draws people in - why use marketing that downplays or even works to subvert that feature?

[Ianamus]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

RedIntifada wrote...

But, I do have to laugh at the idea that people in oppressed groups are mean or hostile because they dare criticise why in the 21st century we are still having these discussions. Sarkeesian actually enjoys playing videogames and as she always points out at the start of her video's it is possible to enjoy things while being critical of them... 

While I agree that the video game industry can do more to advance things like racial diversity, gender representation and a genuinely more open and accepting atmosphere... saying ANY gamer who has the disposable income and freedom to spend hours playing a game is "oppressed" is likely going to seem insanely disinegnious to me. 

This is a real first world problem... but it is TOTALLY a first world problem - "the escapist luxury activity I do for fun and serves no other purpose for my daily existence doesn't have COMMERCIALS with characters that look like me!!!" You'll get much more real sympathy and support from me when approach this exactly as it is - something the industry can do better... not something on the level of Darfur or real life abuses and oppression.

From the very specific argument about Mass Effect 3's marketing, yes it is a very small issue. But I would argue that the topic as a whole, representation of minority groups in media, is a very big issue. Obviously this is only a very small fraction of that, but overall it is a much more serious issue than it may seem. 

Modifié par EJ107, 19 novembre 2013 - 04:12 .

[TheChris92]

Pressedcat wrote...

TheChris92 wrote...

She's been the victim of undeserving harassment, due to a lot of gamers feeling threatened over her opinion on a sensitive topic. It's only natural she'd remove the comment section, because expecting anything rational from Youtube commenters is asking for too much. I haven't seen this video of hers, but I believe that the subject itself is worthy of discussion.

There are plenty of geniune criticisms to be made of her videos, as she is far from an impartial observer, and sometimes her agenda gets the better of her arguments. But as you say, the Youtube comments section is hardly the place for rational discussion, and invairably her comments sections turned into far better examples of current-day sexism than the 8-bit games she so often used.

Oh the irony!

I think that the reaction of the Youtube commenters only serve to prove that there's a problem; The problem is definitely real. I'm sure not all of them were necessarily slurs or insults directed towards Anita, but yeah.. Like I said, I haven't seen the video, but I believe the topic itself is still worthy of discussion due to it still existing today; Nobody deserves to be abused for having an opinion on a sensitive topic. Recent examples such as Remember Me in regards to the dev almost dropping the female lead and adding comments like ""We had people tell us, 'You can't make a dude like the player kiss another dude in the game, that's going to feel awkward.'" or Naughty Dog having to beg for a female test audience for Last of Us. We still have a way to go yet.

Modifié par TheChris92, 19 novembre 2013 - 04:14 .

[Nightwing99]

I feel Old I remember the old days when players Where More interested if you gting good game and about Game play story not marketing

[nightscrawl]

dragonflight288 wrote...

I personally don't care if they use a male or a female for their promotional material. They've already said we get to choose our race and gender, so I feel like it's largely moot, at least in the Dragon Age games.

Does anyone on this forum actually believe that the marketing is geared toward them? We all know about the game. We come here for news, updates, and casual chatting about the game. The only thing left for them to sell us on are specific features (although the recent inclusion of race selection is an exception to this; I guarantee that marketing this will bring players back to Thedas), which will largely go ignored in your standard commercial, poster, etc.

The marketing is geared toward bringing in new players to the franchise, and enticing old players to return. Other than seeing more DAI eye-candy, how is marketing going to affect most of us on the BSN?

If someone is new to Bioware, they might not even know that in your typical Bioware game you can choose between a male and female protag and have the gaming experience be basically the same. Maybe they've only played Witcher, Uncharted, or Assassin's Creed with a set male protag.

Fast Jimmy wrote...

And I'll back off the subject with saying it would be better if the DA team didn't use ANY protagonist AT ALL when promoting the game.

I like this idea too. A lot of the art shows a shadowy figure. While in some pieces it does appear more "manly" (and certainly not dwarfish), I generally prefer that approach than having a fully-formed person being the "face" of the game.

Modifié par nightscrawl, 19 novembre 2013 - 04:21 .

[Fast Jimmy]

Xilizhra wrote...

This is a real first world problem... but it is TOTALLY a first world problem - "the escapist luxury activity I do for fun and serves no other purpose for my daily existence doesn't have COMMERCIALS with characters that look like me!!!" You'll get much more real sympathy and support from me when approach this exactly as it is - something the industry can do better... not something on the level of Darfur or real life abuses and oppression.

And what's being done? Simply talking about it, not creating multimillion-dollar nonprofits to deal with the damage being caused by it, such as with Darfur. The response is proportionate to the cause.

The response should be "this is something I don't like." 

You don't see me saying "the RPG grognards are an oppressed and endangered group because corporate executives are blind to our needs!" Because I realize they follow the money. I make my purchases, I express my opinions and, at the end of the day, I realize I am campaigning for something totally ancillary to mine (and most other's) daily existence. 

No, there isn't a multi-million dollar non-profit fundraiser to get more commercials with females in games where the character has the ability to choose between males and females. Do you know why? ...because there doesn't need to be. The number of games where you get any say on your character creation is already slim enough as it is... it would be asinine to say such a fund raiser would even be logical just to get COMMERCIALS for these games that have both men and women (or even just women). 

So are YouTube videos and Tumblr posts the appropriate level of response? Sure, I'd say that's about right. But to use the stance that female gamers are being oppressed is an improper use of the word and, honestly, a disservice to those who are undergo true oppression, both in the past and still today.

[RedIntifada]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

RedIntifada wrote...

But, I do have to laugh at the idea that people in oppressed groups are mean or hostile because they dare criticise why in the 21st century we are still having these discussions. Sarkeesian actually enjoys playing videogames and as she always points out at the start of her video's it is possible to enjoy things while being critical of them... 

While I agree that the video game industry can do more to advance things like racial diversity, gender representation and a genuinely more open and accepting atmosphere... saying ANY gamer who has the disposable income and freedom to spend hours playing a game is "oppressed" is likely going to seem insanely disinegnious to me. 

This is a real first world problem... but it is TOTALLY a first world problem - "the escapist luxury activity I do for fun and serves no other purpose for my daily existence doesn't have COMMERCIALS with characters that look like me!!!" You'll get much more real sympathy and support from me when approach this exactly as it is - something the industry can do better... not something on the level of Darfur or real life abuses and oppression.

Actually I am involved in fighting against injustice in the 3rd world... (my ID name may give you some cluse about which ones) that doesn't mean it isn't real in the first world or that it doesnt have flow on consequences. 1 in 4 women is sexually assulted during her lifetime. Women get paid significantly less than their male counterparts and are often a very small minority in senior positions in the workforce inculding female dominated areas such as teaching and nursing. This is reinforced by media (including games) valuing women as less.You don't need to travel to war zones to see gender disparity. 

And while it is a smaller issue... it is also still an issue and one that could be easily dealt with.

[Shadow Fox]

dragonflight288 wrote...

I personally don't care if they use a male or a female for their promotional material. They've already said we get to choose our race and gender, so I feel like it's largely moot, at least in the Dragon Age games.

On the flip side, it'd almost being like asking the Japanese to make more anime with magical boy protagonists, since nearly every anime with magic always stars the girls. Is it sexist? Probably to a certain degree, but it's nearly the same issue only in reverse and I simply couldn't care less either way.

All I really want from my games is a great story, excellent characters, solid game-user interface, and quite likely an excellent soundtrack.

Aren't magical girls by large meant to be girls' answer to Sentai heroes and Kamen Riders though?

[Fast Jimmy]

EJ107 wrote...

From the very specific argument about Mass Effect 3's marketing, yes it is a very small issue. But I would argue that the topic as a whole, representation of minority groups in media, is a very big issue. Obviously this is only a very small fraction of that, but overall it is a much more serious issue than it may seem. 

It is AN issue... but it is not a BIG issue.

Genocide is a big issue. The risk of economic/financial collapse is a big issue. Political corruption is a big issue. The growing worldwide incarcerated population is a big issue.

The number of people who look like X in TV/movies/video games/what-have-you is a underlying social issue that is worthy of discussion and action... but no one is facing death or imprisonment right now because of it. But if the fires of such overly dramatic discussion get stoked by using such intense langauge, that might change... and that's the problem. 

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 19 novembre 2013 - 04:25 .

[Fast Jimmy]

nightscrawl wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

I personally don't care if they use a male or a female for their promotional material. They've already said we get to choose our race and gender, so I feel like it's largely moot, at least in the Dragon Age games.

Does anyone on this forum actually believe that the marketing is geared toward them? We all know about the game. We come here for news, updates, and casual chatting about the game. The only thing left for them to sell us on are specific features (although the recent inclusion of race selection is an exception to this; I guarantee that marketing this will bring players back to Thedas), which will largely go ignored in your standard commercial, poster, etc.

The marketing is geared toward bringing in new players to the franchise, and enticing old players to return. Other than seeing more DAI eye-candy, how is marketing going to affect most of us on the BSN?

If someone is new to Bioware, they might not even know that in your typical Bioware game you can choose between a male and female protag and have the gaming experience be basically the same. Maybe they've only played Witcher, Uncharted, or Assassin's Creed with a set male protag.

Fast Jimmy wrote...

And I'll back off the subject with saying it would be better if the DA team didn't use ANY protagonist AT ALL when promoting the game.

I like this idea too. A lot of the art shows a shadowy figure. While in some pieces it does appear more "manly" (and certainly not dwarfish), I generally prefer that approach than having a fully-formed person being the "face" of the game.

Which is why I suggest no protagonist be used at all, but rather the marketing works to show that you can create your own character, make your own decisions, forge your own path. It is one of the biggest features (and resource draws, I might add) of the RPG genre, not to mention Bioware itself. Why aren't companies marketing THAT instead of another dude-bro or dude-chick on the cover?

I said I was going to step away from this conversation... and I'm going to now. For real.

[KC_Prototype]

Well the audience majority male and fans of the series know in the game your character can be male or female. Also, many good games have female protagonist, Tomb Raider, Heavenly Sword, Mirror's Edge, etc.

[Paul E Dangerously]

I thought ME3 went overboard with the constant FemShep stuff, but eh. Marketing only hits my awareness when something is "What are you thinking?" (Marilyn Manson for DAO, anyone?) or actively annoying.

I also don't really think it matters as much as you think it does. Skyrim sold an entire boatload of copies, and Bethesda only ever has a default character in the marketing - and you've got -ten- racial choices and gender choice to boot, yet I don't think I've ever heard this complaint.

Bioware's actually gone out of it's way to be inclusive - I'd almost say too much so, but that's a whole other can of worms.

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Aren't magical girls by large meant to be girls' answer to Sentai heroes and Kamen Riders though?

They've had female Sentai heroes for longer than most people on this board have been alive. Female Riders are a bit more rare, though.

Modifié par Sopa de Gato, 19 novembre 2013 - 04:31 .

[ElitePinecone]

OP: I hope so.

The initial signs are promising - the trailer seemed to have the Inquisitor shrouded in a dust storm, and you couldn't make out their gender. Eventually they may need to show the actual character, but I hope it's made clear early and often that the Inquisitor is not male by default and can be played as either gender.

Also, the artists seem much more open to drawing concept art of the Inquisitor from a variety of races and both genders - perhaps DA:I (like DA:O) has an advantage in this respect compared to both the ME series and DA2, given that the Warden and the Inquisitor are potentially *far* less predefined than either Shepard or Hawke.

[Jeremiah12LGeek]

EDIT: I'm going to follow my own advice, and stop getting out of the boat.

Modifié par Jeremiah12LGeek, 19 novembre 2013 - 04:42 .

[Beerfish]

If any company should be given praise rather than criticism about a variety of equality issues it is BioWare. There are bushel loads of games and gaming companies that could be taken to task about such things.

[Allan Schumacher]

Xilizhra wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Estelindis wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Hmmm... so the question becomes, how do they show multiple Inquisitors during one round of marketing, if that would be the optimal way to go about this? Showing two different examples of gameplay footage with different PCs?

At least when they're doing gameplay demos at cons, couldn't it be as easy as showng the female protagonist sometimes and showing the male protagonist at other times?  I mean, unless the female version isn't actually ready yet...

That could also work. Possibly also showing a female protagonist of a different race?

Female qunari rogue or mage? That would be really cool.

Tal-Vashoth. Only foreigners would call them qunari; the qunari and Tal-Vashoth themselves refuse to do so.

We've explicitly referred to it as playable Qunari.  I'd prefer to NOT get into yet another internet pissing match about which specific word is used since, in my opinion, when we say "Playable Qunari" most people have a pretty good idea of what we are talking about.

Sorry, I'm anal.

This is a battle I'd really prefer you didn't fight.

Have people considered how confusing it would be to players to show half a dozen protagonists?

I don't know if it'd be confusing or not.  It could provide additional clarity.  It may not.  I don't know.

[hotdogbsg]

Lockdown Prediction:

Thread closed by end of today.

[Beerfish]

RedIntifada wrote...

ginner dave wrote...

PS. Rugglys avi is ME3s ghost boy being hit. An extremely far stretch from the glorification of abuse towards woman in video games.

PPS. The term Femshep was a nickname coined by loyal and enthusiast female Shepard supporters. The same way male Shep got the nickname Sheploo. Not everything is an attempt at misogyny.

I will apologise for not being able to see the former from my screen it looked like Kasumi. In terms of the FemShep being labled by enthusiasts that is acknowledged in the video but it still generates the "ms" trope i.e that fem is different from the norm which is male and men can have lots of characteristics and traits (such as having loo on the end of their name) but that the female is defined simply by her being female.

Again as in my OP the discussion on ME is at 19.55 on the video, it literally only goes for 2-3 minutes and I encourage people to watch it.

I suggest you take the voice actress of the female shepard to great task over her continuing use of that term to identify the female shepard from the male one.

[Potato Cat]

How about you show a male human S/S warrior who then dodges and with the help of some swanky magic smoke gets back up as a female qunari with a massive hammer and so one for the various classes and races? Appeals to both men and women surely.

[ElitePinecone]

Ack, on reading further into the thread I realised I totally forgot that the PAX demo used a male warrior Inquisitor.

Chalk that up to the marketing team wanting to play it safe, but I really hope they don't persist with "(white) maleInquisitor wearing that helmet" for the entire advertising campaign - it does an injustice to the diversity of the protagonist options and makes the target audience seem rather... narrow.

[Allan Schumacher]

Lord Raijin wrote...

Anita Sarkeesian is like a blood mage... you can't trust her opinions, especially when she blocks peoples comments on her youtube channel. I can only pray to the Maker that she doesn't lay her feminist sticky hands on Dragon Age, and spread her feminism virus to alter the game it self just to please herself and others like her.

Let her ruin Mass Effect all she wants... just leave Dragon Age alone.

This type of tangent will NOT be tolerated.

She has her reasons for blocking people's comments, and any person that feels it's some how silencing discussion or preventing people from responding to her are showing just how little understanding of why she felt the need to do so.

Blame the people that just couldn't control their hateful vitriol.  As a white male, I'd stop comments as well.


NOTE:  I'm going to abuse my power and have the final say with regards to this point.  Do not reply to this post.

[CronoDragoon]

RedIntifada wrote...
Female gamers deserve to finally feel like they are the "default" and male gamers can and should learn to navigate seeing themselves through a female avitar... like women gamers are constantly having to do.

Uh, no. That is equally sexist. The only way to be non-sexist is to advertise both equally and not have a "default", but this is problematic marketing-wise as it could confuse people who don't frequent the boards. Personally I have no problenm with marketing both equally but I am sure there are reasons why BW does this that are not sexist.

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 19 novembre 2013 - 04:40 .