311 réponses à ce sujet

[Silcron]

Yes, I get the whole male-female dilema in marketing but that can be solved in DA:I's case rather easily. One of the highlights of the game is being able to play literally every race and gender, and if memory serves DA:O's trailers showed that.

I really get the equality idea, and I do think we still need to work on that but as Plato said: balance, least we end up having to fight for male rights in a hundred years.

So again, there's an easy way to keep not only feminists but fans of elves, dwarfs and qunari happy, showcase different Inquisitors, make that choice an important part of the marketing. And I do think it's the best solution in this case because if it's male why is not female. If it's female why is it human? If it's elven why not qunary? And so on.

[Potato Cat]

Abraham_uk wrote...
Also Anita did make a mistake in her video.

Female Shepard is referred to as FemShep true.
However Male Shepard is referred to as BroShep.
Shepard reefers to both genders. 

I have honestly never heard anyone call a Male Shepard BroShep. Ever. Not that I'm denying anyone calls him that, but you have to admit FemShep is used far, far more frequently.

[Allan Schumacher]

I will also be watching this thread.

Anyone that decides to make this personal against Anita and not related to the issue from the video and how it should (or should not) be applied to Inquisition will be met with a very angry individual (me).


EDIT: I am adding this to the OP for new posters.

Modifié par Allan Schumacher, 19 novembre 2013 - 05:26 .

[Steelcan]

Why shouldn't MaleShep be considered default? He's by far the more popular option.

Spending the money on equal representation for both genders in marketing just seems kinda pointless from an economic standpoint.

So for Inquisition, I wouldnt be surpised if a non human male gets a trailer, but I do expect that tgeyd get the most air time.  Its just common sense.

As long as both genders are well put into the game itself, I dont see a problem with marketing favoring one race or gender over the other.  It wont get the ideas of customization out very well, but itd get the game to more people.

Modifié par Steelcan, 19 novembre 2013 - 05:33 .

[AmRMa]

I think Bioware is one of the companies that is actively trying to be more inclusive of women and minorities in their games and that are starting to move more towards marketing. Sure their not completly equal in marketing yet but they are better than a lot of other games and the way they treat women- Call of Duty and Metal Gear Solid for example.

[Rodia Driftwood]

RedIntifada wrote...

Anita Sarkeesian's series Tropes vs. Women in games has a new episode.

http://kotaku.com/ne...male-1466898678

The episode discusses ME's marketing (around the 19:55 mark) in particular the issue of the default protagonist being male and the female version being defined by the fact that she is female i.e. there is Shepard and femShepard rather than Shepard and maleShep.

With almost half of RPG gamers being female the fact that women are always having to negotiate a male protagonist in marketing is a problem.

Already we have seen the first bits of footage for Dragon Age: Inquisition and of coures we had a male playing character in that demo. It would be great if we could see some female inquisitors in future demos and marketing especially without a big deal being made of it i.e. that it just happens as this is our inquisitor as opposed to it being seen as a special thing that inquisitors are female.

Also it would be great if the default option on character building menues didn't default to male. I could be wrong but most (if not all) RPG games that I have played  have the default option (i.e. the one the cursor starts on) as male which probably increases the statistic to male. The majority of people probably played soldiers on ME3 for the same reason.

Female gamers deserve to finally feel like they are the "default" and male gamers can and should learn to navigate seeing themselves through a female avitar... like women gamers are constantly having to do.

This is so wrong. If any female gamers read this reply of mine, do you feel offended, ignored, insulted or let down when marketing for DA:I is don with a male protagonist? Seriously, who makes a big deal out of this? It's just a damn game. No feelings were ever hurt because the cover art of a game had a male protagonist, except that of a bleeding heart feminist who claims equality in the most pathetic and hypocritical way. OP's post is downright insulting to the senses. 

Female gamers don't deserve anything. Now, I'm not saying screw female gamers, I'm saying who the hell takes the default character being male offensive? Does Anita Sarkeesian speak for all female gamers? I don't think so. I don't think all female gamers get upset because of something so trivial like this. 

[Silcron]

Elfman wrote...

Abraham_uk wrote...
Also Anita did make a mistake in her video.

Female Shepard is referred to as FemShep true.
However Male Shepard is referred to as BroShep.
Shepard reefers to both genders. 

I have honestly never heard anyone call a Male Shepard BroShep. Ever. Not that I'm denying anyone calls him that, but you have to admit FemShep is used far, far more frequently.

Well in my case I've always heard femshep and maleshep for the defalut ones then there's "my shep" as in my customized one. Though I've heard broshep and sheploo for the male version here and there.

[AlexanderCousland]

Elfman wrote...

Abraham_uk wrote...
Also Anita did make a mistake in her video.

Female Shepard is referred to as FemShep true.
However Male Shepard is referred to as BroShep.
Shepard reefers to both genders. 

I have honestly never heard anyone call a Male Shepard BroShep. Ever. Not that I'm denying anyone calls him that, but you have to admit FemShep is used far, far more frequently.

Is there an Issue with the female version of Shepard be referred to as FemShep?

[Allan Schumacher]

Steelcan wrote...

Why shouldn't MaleShep be considered default? He's by Dar the more popular option.

Spending the money on equal representation for both genders in marketing just seems kinda pointless from an economic standpoint.

The problem comes that the association is made that women (and how this applies to a more global issue beyond just video games) are considered secondary.


While I see a lot of people actually refer to their male Shepard as things like Sheploo and so forth, Anita is of the opinion that it's still problematic on a larger scale issue that the woman Shepard has a large scale "FemShep."  Within the context of the rest of the video and how women characters are often given the personality of "woman" and in many cases seem to require obvious gendered imagery to denote that the character is a woman, it's still reasonably consistent.

[Ianamus]

Steelcan wrote...

Why shouldn't MaleShep be considered default? He's by Dar the more popular option.

Spending the money on equal representation for both genders in marketing just seems kinda pointless from an economic standpoint.

It is an issue when the marketing is so focused on the male version of the protagonist that it doesnt even make it clear you can play as a female charcter in the first place. 

Watching Mass Effect 1's marketing I had no idea it was possible to play as a female Shepard- and watching ME3's mainstream marketing I wouldn't have known if I wasn't already familiar with the franchise. 

What is the point of having the option to play as a female character if the people who would be most interested in playing as one never even realise that you can?

Modifié par EJ107, 19 novembre 2013 - 05:36 .

[Potato Cat]

Silcron wrote...

Well in my case I've always heard femshep and maleshep for the defalut ones then there's "my shep" as in my customized one. Though I've heard broshep and sheploo for the male version here and there.

Oh, I've heard Sheploo, but I always thought that was just a weird nickname for all Shepards.

[Silcron]

Elfman wrote...

Silcron wrote...

Well in my case I've always heard femshep and maleshep for the defalut ones then there's "my shep" as in my customized one. Though I've heard broshep and sheploo for the male version here and there.

Oh, I've heard Sheploo, but I always thought that was just a weird nickname for all Shepards.

I have to admit I just assumed it refered to the male default version, but tbh I don't know where it comes from of it really means that, thus why I don't use it, should have thought of that before putting it there.

Sorry in case I'm mistaken

[Anthadlas]

This is just getting stupid now, you cannot claim something is sexist, racist or xeneophobic just because every single demographic has not been personally marketed to.

They haven't shown any marketing aimed purely at people who want to play dwarfs yet so obviously Bioware is predjudiced towards short people...

Has no one considered that creating marketing aimed purely at buttering up women is actually more sexist than not including it? You are seperating the female fanbase from the rest of the audience.

If you can find any traces of sexism in Bioware's actual advertising then fine but claiming sexism on potential marketing because it hasn't been released is insane

[Anthadlas]

FreshIstay wrote...

Elfman wrote...

Abraham_uk wrote...
Also Anita did make a mistake in her video.

Female Shepard is referred to as FemShep true.
However Male Shepard is referred to as BroShep.
Shepard reefers to both genders. 

I have honestly never heard anyone call a Male Shepard BroShep. Ever. Not that I'm denying anyone calls him that, but you have to admit FemShep is used far, far more frequently.

Is there an Issue with the female version of Shepard be referred to as FemShep?

Yes because referring to a female as actually being female is excluding them from being male, Somehow....
Sarcasm

[CENIC]

It would be nice to see a female protagonist in marketing for Inquisition. The guys have had two games/marketing campaigns now, so I don't feel unreasonable in requesting a female rogue Inquisitor for the marketing face of the game.

I also agree with the idea that character creation should be randomized. I'm extremely curious to see how that affects player statistics; will casual/new players still roll with the first character they see, or will they seek out a bald white man? 

[Steelcan]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

The problem comes that the association is made that women (and how this applies to a more global issue beyond just video games) are considered secondary.


While I see a lot of people actually refer to their male Shepard as things like Sheploo and so forth, Anita is of the opinion that it's still problematic on a larger scale issue that the woman Shepard has a large scale "FemShep."  Within the context of the rest of the video and how women characters are often given the personality of "woman" and in many cases seem to require obvious gendered imagery to denote that the character is a woman, it's still reasonably consistent.

When talking about marketing, Male protagonists are going to get more focus since they are more popular.  That just seems to me sound business sense, not sexism in marketing.  

Itd be sexist if FemShep was played off as inferior in her trailer, and we all know that isnt the case.  BioWare has done a very good job of making a female protagonist on par with the "default" male.

Theres going to be a need for all games to have a default image for trailers and box art etc.. (if the pc is customizable).  I just dont see how a less popular character not recieving equal screen time in ads is sexist.

[Anthadlas]

Silcron wrote...

Elfman wrote...

Silcron wrote...

Well in my case I've always heard femshep and maleshep for the defalut ones then there's "my shep" as in my customized one. Though I've heard broshep and sheploo for the male version here and there.

Oh, I've heard Sheploo, but I always thought that was just a weird nickname for all Shepards.

I have to admit I just assumed it refered to the male default version, but tbh I don't know where it comes from of it really means that, thus why I don't use it, should have thought of that before putting it there.

Sorry in case I'm mistaken

It is the default male Shepard.

Mark Vanderloo is the model on which the canon male Shepards face is based

Google it, it's creepy

Modifié par Wraith 02, 19 novembre 2013 - 05:48 .

[The Night Mammoth]

Just do away with the concept of a default altogether, at least in terms of gender.

[Heimdall]

Silcron wrote...

Elfman wrote...

Silcron wrote...
Well in my case I've always heard femshep and maleshep for the defalut ones then there's "my shep" as in my customized one. Though I've heard broshep and sheploo for the male version here and there.

Oh, I've heard Sheploo, but I always thought that was just a weird nickname for all Shepards.

I have to admit I just assumed it refered to the male default version, but tbh I don't know where it comes from of it really means that, thus why I don't use it, should have thought of that before putting it there.

Sorry in case I'm mistaken

You're not wrong.  The default male Shepard's face was based on on some model with the surname Vanderloo (I think I'm spelling that right).  Hence, Sheploo

Anyway, I've always heard Shepard used to refer to the character in general, regardless of gender.  Femshep just comes up more often than Maleshep or Broshep because people complain a lot more about how the female protagonist is portrayed.  That's my experience.

[WoolyJoe]

There is a valid point to be made in all this... But I think what is seen as the fight for gender equality has begun to come across as a bit 'militant', particularly by announcing the problem lies with default male characters in RPGs. There are numerous reasons for this, and whilst I do like and await the point in which they do finally start simply including heroines alongside the heroes without prompting, I understand there are a whole bunch of issues in the way of progress (most of which are actually kinda lame when you get into it...)

Possibly amongst the greatest obstacles feminism face is alienation and public malignment. I've never watched/read anything produced by Anita Sarkeesian (save what has been referenced in this thread), but I am aware that a lot of people's feelings towards her is that she is a radical reformist whose work is nothing short of detrimental to video games, which I'm sure isn't the case. Even Dragon Age's lead writer David Gaider has been 'accused' of having feminist views - the fact that having a feminist perspective/ideals is seen as a bad thing is a major hindrance to possible change right off the bat.

Virginia Woolf wrote in A Room Of One's Own that the only way to make your voice heard in regards to critical thinking is to form an objective, measured argument that considers every facet of the issue under scrutiny, no matter how strongly you feel about it. Otherwise you alienate people from your cause as being, no matter how well you argue your position, 'hysterical'. And if you've read Woolf's essays you'll see just how angry she is about female discrimination - so much so you could argue that she fails adhere to what she preaches (I wouldn't though...) - but she still maintains a steady, level head, regardless. My point being that attacking something as grandiose as both EA's international marketing campaign and the last thirty years of male-lead RPGs isn't doing the side any favours. 75% of the people who come across these videos or articles or pamphlets, etc. will either think that those involved are 'hysterical radicals' and ignore them, or worse will view them as dangerous feminists that threaten their 'gaming experience' (which is something that bugs me, the idea of equality being threatening). The 25% percent that remain will partially be made of those that agree out of principle but see the argument as flawed, those that already agree, and those that agree out of a desire for affirmative action. Which is a real shame, as it means the issues outlined and the problems of discrimination which do exist will be forgotten amongst the arguing, and in the end may merely further alienate those who the argument was trying to convince.

Caroll Ann Duffy, Britain's poet laureate, once posited in a lecture that perhaps feminism needed to come up with a new title for itself. Not only because the public hold so many negative connotations towards the movement that it's difficult to be taken seriously (which is just tragic when you look at some of the genuine injustices that happen to women all over the world), but also as there are, especially as we move into the 21st Century, more and more people claiming to be feminists that attack the wrong groups or institutions or make widely misguided statements, which makes it yet harder to be taken seriously (my personal vitriol is against 'career women' that feel it's progressive to slander mothers and housewives (how does that help!?!)).

I think I've rambled on too long to be taken seriously in this debate now (which is ironic, really...)

My point being: There are big problems with gender representation in the video games industry - for both women AND men (how do you think I feel having to play game-after-game as a massive, testosterone-suckling, fridge-wearing sociopathic-imbecile or whiney, pseudo-heroic, vicious gun-toting moron? It's embarassing!) - but if you wish to instigate some real change you have got to pick your battles, and this doesn't seem to be the right one. By all means, criticise advertising and marketing, make a point about male protagonists, but be careful when you throw out loaded terms or use heated language against too many groups, cause you'll only then appeal to the like-minded, when what you're supposed to be doing is educating the ignorant (that's not meant to sound as arrogant as it does). Woolf knew she wouldn't be able to change how academia worked in her lifetime because she had hundreds of years patriarchal institutions weighed against her. But she could sow the seeds of change (for want of an expression that wouldn't make me thow-up a little as I typed it...). She could provide what she never really had, which was a female academic who had fought against the odds and been taken seriously where it mattered.

Which is why I think attacking/criticising BioWare's femShep is a step in the wrong direction. The industry is fundementally sexist - most of society is, and that's the problem! But femShep addressed something which is more-often-than-not ignored. A big part of Shepard's image/inspiration came from the heroism represented by the first astronauts sent into space (hence the name Shepard). But, over the course of the first two games, it became increasingly apparent that there were players that saw that exact same heroism portrayed by a fmale Commander Shepard, which BioWare seemed to think was a good thing despite the comparativly low number of players. And so they wished to shed some light on this and created a series of alternate trailers/videos that made this clear. Yeah, the fact that they were "alternate" videos and that she has to be qualified as 'femShep' does kinda suck. But it's still a move forward. I personally don't use the term, since my Shepard isn't femShep - she's Shepard: In the trilogy, Shepard was a woman that blew-up some stuff, punched some dudes and dudetts, pushed over an intoxicated volus, and was accused-of-but-never-actually-did stick a gun in a bemused fan's face (now that's Freudian...!).

Urgh, I've bored myself so much I'm talking nonsense...

Yeah: female representation in video games is a problem, and I've actually reached the point where it'll have to be a particularly special RPG for me to pick it up if it doesn't include gender customisation (one of the reasons I never touched The Witcher, I think). But in order to make an impact you have got to pick your battles properly, otherwise you risk alienating those you should've brought on side. Which is why, despite being slow, I think a lot of the things BioWare have done in this regard have been for the better. And if you wanna take to a soap-box over femShep and heroines in advertising, I'd ask you first look into the fact addressing why most of the programmers that work in game production are men, since (personally) I think that's where the change should begin.
I mean, seriously, you wanna get angry about something, just look up how much women are paid compared to men. I think that was the thing that tipped me over the edge...

Ontopic: Yeah, I'm waiting for them to release some footage of the female Inquisitor, too. : )

EDIT: I quite recently got a chance to play though both Remember Me and Dead Space 3, and the heroes of both were kinda aweful, despite being of opposite genders. So score one for equality there!

Modifié par WoolyJoe, 19 novembre 2013 - 05:52 .

[Allan Schumacher]

Wraith 02 wrote...

This is just getting stupid now, you cannot claim something is sexist, racist or xeneophobic just because every single demographic has not been personally marketed to.

They haven't shown any marketing aimed purely at people who want to play dwarfs yet so obviously Bioware is predjudiced towards short people...

This is a false equivalence.  Further, people take the term a lot more aggressively.  When people point this out to me, I don't go "oh god I'm an awful human being."  I go "are the assumptions that I make actually fair and representative, or is it actually okay to go away from established tropes."  Note, that my perspective on this goes up with every incident that people say "it shouldn't matter" as a defense.

Has no one considered that creating marketing aimed purely at buttering up women is actually more sexist than not including it? You are seperating the female fanbase from the rest of the audience.

If you can find any traces of sexism in Bioware's actual advertising then fine but claiming sexism on potential marketing because it hasn't been released is insane

It's important to note that default options are not apolitical (though many people seem to think that they are).

The unfortunate problem comes when simply adding a female protagonist gets equated to "marketing aimed purely at buttering up women."  Especially when a lot of people tell me that "it shouldn't matter" as a defense of the status quo.

[Giga Drill BREAKER]

What happened to my post?

Modifié par DinoSteve, 19 novembre 2013 - 05:52 .

[daveliam]

Steelcan wrote...

Why shouldn't MaleShep be considered default? He's by far the more popular option.

I wonder, if Mass Effect was marketed with "Femshep" as the default option from the very beginning (including in the videos, demos, advertisements, etc.), would "Maleshep" be so overwhelmingly popular?  Right now, it seems like about 80% of the players pick him.  I have to wonder if it's a combination of:  a primarily male player base; a marketing campaign that doesn't even make it clear that "Femshep" exists; and the fact that the "default" option on the character select screen is "Sheploo".

If the default were "Femshep" and it was advertised that she was the face of the series, perhaps the numbers would have been much closer.  It might still have favored "Maleshep" in the longrun, but it certainly would have been less of a skewed result. 

I think that this is Anita's point.  OF COURSE "Maleshep" is preferred.  He appears to be the default character.  So if you make him default, it causes more people to select him, which makes you think he's more popular, so you make him default, which makes more people select him.......  Circular logic.  I think that this was the underlying point that Anita was making when discussing the marketing for the ME series.

[Br3admax]

Steelcan wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

The problem comes that the association is made that women (and how this applies to a more global issue beyond just video games) are considered secondary.


While I see a lot of people actually refer to their male Shepard as things like Sheploo and so forth, Anita is of the opinion that it's still problematic on a larger scale issue that the woman Shepard has a large scale "FemShep."  Within the context of the rest of the video and how women characters are often given the personality of "woman" and in many cases seem to require obvious gendered imagery to denote that the character is a woman, it's still reasonably consistent.

When talking about marketing, Male protagonists are going to get more focus since they are more popular.  That just seems to me sound business sense, not sexism in marketing.  

Itd be sexist if FemShep was played off as inferior in her trailer, and we all know that isnt the case.  BioWare has done a very good job of making a female protagonist on par with the "default" male.

Theres going to be a need for all games to have a default image for trailers and box art etc.. (if the pc is customizable).  I just dont see how a less popular character not recieving equal screen time in ads is sexist.

Exactly. Only 18% of people actually played FemShep. It's understandable that she would be marketed less than than if she doesn't appeal as much to the other 82%. It would be a bigger issue if she were given no time, or a lesser role as a Shepard. 

[Br3admax]

daveliam wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Why shouldn't MaleShep be considered default? He's by far the more popular option.

I wonder, if Mass Effect was marketed with "Femshep" as the default option from the very beginning (including in the videos, demos, advertisements, etc.), would "Maleshep" be so overwhelmingly popular?  Right now, it seems like about 80% of the players pick him.  I have to wonder if it's a combination of:  a primarily male player base; a marketing campaign that doesn't even make it clear that "Femshep" exists; and the fact that the "default" option on the character select screen is "Sheploo".

If the default were "Femshep" and it was advertised that she was the face of the series, perhaps the numbers would have been much closer.  It might still have favored "Maleshep" in the longrun, but it certainly would have been less of a skewed result. 

I think that this is Anita's point.  OF COURSE "Maleshep" is preferred.  He appears to be the default character.  So if you make him default, it causes more people to select him, which makes you think he's more popular, so you make him default, which makes more people select him.......  Circular logic.  I think that this was the underlying point that Anita was making when discussing the marketing for the ME series.

People don't pick Sheploo because he is default. People pick Sheploo because he was designed more for the fanbase. That is why Liara appeals more. That is why Garrus appeals. It has nothing to do with him being default over FemShep. The product is designed for the consumer, not the other way arround.