311 réponses à ce sujet

[Killdren88]

If you ask me demos should be ambiguous. Have your character fully armored in a way you can't tell what gender they are. That solves the problem if you ask me. Its left to the player who is under that armor.

[Rinji the Bearded]

Br3ad wrote...

People don't pick Sheploo because he is default. People pick Sheploo because he was designed more for the fanbase. That is why Liara appeals more. That is why Garrus appeals. It has nothing to do with him being default over FemShep. The product is designed for the consumer, not the other way arround. 

[citation needed]

This is real circular logic you're trying to apply here.

Modifié par RinjiRenee, 19 novembre 2013 - 05:59 .

[Allan Schumacher]

When talking about marketing, Male protagonists are going to get more focus since they are more popular. That just seems to me sound business sense, not sexism in marketing.

Itd be sexist if FemShep was played off as inferior in her trailer, and we all know that isnt the case. BioWare has done a very good job of making a female protagonist on par with the "default" male.

Theres going to be a need for all games to have a default image for trailers and box art etc.. (if the pc is customizable). I just dont see how a less popular character not recieving equal screen time in ads is sexist.

Because it's in large part a chicken and egg issue.

Especially since people keep telling me that it doesn't matter if it's a man or a woman.

But you are right that when dealing with large budgets and the imperfect science and causal relationships of marketing will create trepidation since "what if it DOES matter?"


Still, from the concepts of simply making people think about the topic, I have little issue with people discussing it.

[daveliam]

Br3ad wrote...

daveliam wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Why shouldn't MaleShep be considered default? He's by far the more popular option.

I wonder, if Mass Effect was marketed with "Femshep" as the default option from the very beginning (including in the videos, demos, advertisements, etc.), would "Maleshep" be so overwhelmingly popular?  Right now, it seems like about 80% of the players pick him.  I have to wonder if it's a combination of:  a primarily male player base; a marketing campaign that doesn't even make it clear that "Femshep" exists; and the fact that the "default" option on the character select screen is "Sheploo".

If the default were "Femshep" and it was advertised that she was the face of the series, perhaps the numbers would have been much closer.  It might still have favored "Maleshep" in the longrun, but it certainly would have been less of a skewed result. 

I think that this is Anita's point.  OF COURSE "Maleshep" is preferred.  He appears to be the default character.  So if you make him default, it causes more people to select him, which makes you think he's more popular, so you make him default, which makes more people select him.......  Circular logic.  I think that this was the underlying point that Anita was making when discussing the marketing for the ME series.

People don't pick Sheploo because he is default. People pick Sheploo because he was designed more for the fanbase. That is why Liara appeals more. That is why Garrus appeals. It has nothing to do with him being default over FemShep. The product is designed for the consumer, not the other way arround. 

Wait, what?  How was Sheploo designed as being more appealing?  Are you arguing that his physical characteristics (because of Mark Vanderloo....?) make him more appealing?  I don't get it.

If that's the case, then why not make "Femshep" based off of the characterstics that make female characters (like Liara, using your exact example) more appealing as the default.  That's the point.  They CHOSE to use the male.  There's not inherently wrong with that, but you also can't claim that it doesn't send a message about the character.

[Jaulen]

EJ107 wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Why shouldn't MaleShep be considered default? He's by Dar the more popular option.

Spending the money on equal representation for both genders in marketing just seems kinda pointless from an economic standpoint.

It is an issue when the marketing is so focused on the male version of the protagonist that it doesnt even make it clear you can play as a female charcter in the first place. 

Watching Mass Effect 1's marketing I had no idea it was possible to play as a female Shepard- and watching ME3's mainstream marketing I wouldn't have known if I wasn't already familiar with the franchise. 

What is the point of having the option to play as a female character if the people who would be most interested in playing as one never even realise that you can?

One of the reasons I wasn't interested in playing the Mass Effect series.....until I saw the whole thing about fans picking the haircolor for FemShep....THEN I knew that ME had ability to pick different sex for the main character.
And only then did I get interested in the game and pick up the whole series.

I don't play too many video games, since I hate being shoe-horned into a set class or sex for my character. Let me pick my character's sex and shoe-horn my class? I might pick it up.....Let me pick my class but not the sex of my character? Not interested at all. Let me chose both? you have my money. And I will play a game through as mainly female characters, but will also do playthroughs as males.

It's kind of dumb from a business standpoint to cut off what may be a sizeable portion of the market just because of a percieved "Well this is what's normally done so we're just going to keep doing it." If attitudes didn't evolve, we'd all still be living under a serfdom system. (and no...I'm not equating lack of female protags to serfdom....I'm making a comment about evolving attitudes)

[AlexanderCousland]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Why shouldn't MaleShep be considered default? He's by Dar the more popular option.

Spending the money on equal representation for both genders in marketing just seems kinda pointless from an economic standpoint.

The problem comes that the association is made that women (and how this applies to a more global issue beyond just video games) are considered secondary.


While I see a lot of people actually refer to their male Shepard as things like Sheploo and so forth, Anita is of the opinion that it's still problematic on a larger scale issue that the woman Shepard has a large scale "FemShep."  Within the context of the rest of the video and how women characters are often given the personality of "woman" and in many cases seem to require obvious gendered imagery to denote that the character is a woman, it's still reasonably consistent.

I've formed the conscious opinion that not matter how a female is presented it will always be some sort of controversy
In any Medium. Movies, Game's, etc. even if said character is written or designed by a female themselves. The deep question is, Why is Male representation compared side by side with Female representation as if the two are in competition ? Even more, If a video game character is dressed scantly clad or provocative, IS that so far different from what we see from Female's in our own society? Isn't it possible Artist's draw from real life inspiration Strictly in terms of dress apparel and even character (Isabela) ? What is so unbearably wrong with the way a Male character artist views his female character? 

[Anthadlas]

Most people who buy games don't even watch every single piece of marketing or trailers and then base ingame choices of them. most play because of critic reviews and recommendations from friends.

When I played ME1 I knew nothing about Shepard, what they looked like, what gender they were, none of the background on them or the plot.

I chose Male Shepard because I am Male and I chose the default face because It looked good, simple

[Br3admax]

daveliam wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

daveliam wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Why shouldn't MaleShep be considered default? He's by far the more popular option.

I wonder, if Mass Effect was marketed with "Femshep" as the default option from the very beginning (including in the videos, demos, advertisements, etc.), would "Maleshep" be so overwhelmingly popular?  Right now, it seems like about 80% of the players pick him.  I have to wonder if it's a combination of:  a primarily male player base; a marketing campaign that doesn't even make it clear that "Femshep" exists; and the fact that the "default" option on the character select screen is "Sheploo".

If the default were "Femshep" and it was advertised that she was the face of the series, perhaps the numbers would have been much closer.  It might still have favored "Maleshep" in the longrun, but it certainly would have been less of a skewed result. 

I think that this is Anita's point.  OF COURSE "Maleshep" is preferred.  He appears to be the default character.  So if you make him default, it causes more people to select him, which makes you think he's more popular, so you make him default, which makes more people select him.......  Circular logic.  I think that this was the underlying point that Anita was making when discussing the marketing for the ME series.

People don't pick Sheploo because he is default. People pick Sheploo because he was designed more for the fanbase. That is why Liara appeals more. That is why Garrus appeals. It has nothing to do with him being default over FemShep. The product is designed for the consumer, not the other way arround. 

Wait, what?  How was Sheploo designed as being more appealing?  Are you arguing that his physical characteristics (because of Mark Vanderloo....?) make him more appealing?  I don't get it.

If that's the case, then why not make "Femshep" based off of the characterstics that make female characters (like Liara, using your exact example) more appealing as the default.  That's the point.  They CHOSE to use the male.  There's not inherently wrong with that, but you also can't claim that it doesn't send a message about the character.

Are you insuiating that MaleShep was created without trying to make him an appealing protagonist? Every player character is made to be appealing to those that buy the product. That's business 101. It doesn't send a message about BioWare at all. A lot of people wanted to play a male protagonist, so they picked a male protagonist. Default Shepard is an appealing male protagonist. So they picked default Shepard, not because he was defualt, but because he was the type of character they wanted to play. He was made default because they knew that people would want to play him. That is how business works.

[Cainhurst Crow]

The whole complaint sounds much more like it's taking the context out of the content to make things appear worse then they really are. If the trailers and promotional material showed female characters being inferior or little more then useless eyecandy, then there might be something. But thst isn't the case, and so an excuse needs to be invented from thin air about why psudo-femminists need to be angry at a currently popular upcoming game and give anita a reason to get more money to do something that could be done for free.

And thus they go after the nameless, faceless, genderless, personality-less, and featureless protaganist. The one thst can be shaped entirely by the player and thus has no pre-defined feature to point and say "this is a bad portyal of woman" to actually voice. But of course its because they didn't make a female character in the demo thst is the most important thing to complain about. Because someone who wasn't anita made a character anita wouldn't make, its sexist. Thst seems more biased then any bioware marketing video.

[Jaulen]

FreshIstay wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Why shouldn't MaleShep be considered default? He's by Dar the more popular option.

Spending the money on equal representation for both genders in marketing just seems kinda pointless from an economic standpoint.

The problem comes that the association is made that women (and how this applies to a more global issue beyond just video games) are considered secondary.


While I see a lot of people actually refer to their male Shepard as things like Sheploo and so forth, Anita is of the opinion that it's still problematic on a larger scale issue that the woman Shepard has a large scale "FemShep."  Within the context of the rest of the video and how women characters are often given the personality of "woman" and in many cases seem to require obvious gendered imagery to denote that the character is a woman, it's still reasonably consistent.

I've formed the conscious opinion that not matter how a female is presented it will always be some sort of controversy
In any Medium. Movies, Game's, etc. even if said character is written or designed by a female themselves. The deep question is, Why is Male representation compared side by side with Female representation as if the two are in competition ? Even more, If a video game character is dressed scantly clad or provocative, IS that so far different from what we see from Female's in our own society? Isn't it possible Artist's draw from real life inspiration Strictly in terms of dress apparel and even character (Isabela) ? What is so unbearably wrong with the way a Male character artist views his female character? 

Yes...because as a female in a real world setting, if I was going to go off to battle I'd do it in a brass thong and a fur bikini top....

[Rinji the Bearded]

Br3ad wrote...

Are you insuiating that MaleShep was created without trying to make him an appealing protagonist? Every player character is made to be appealing to those that buy the product. That's business 101. It doesn't send a message about BioWare at all. A lot of people wanted to play a male protagonist, so they picked a male protagonist. Default Shepard is an appealing male protagonist. So they picked default Shepard, not because he was defualt, but because he was the type of character they wanted to play. He was made default because they knew that people would want to play him. That is how business works.

"That's Business 101"

[citation needed]

I still don't understand what you mean by "appealing."  Is it his rugged, handsome features that appeal to men?

[Ianamus]

Wraith 02 wrote...

Most people who buy games don't even watch every single piece of marketing or trailers and then base ingame choices of them. most play because of critic reviews and recommendations from friends.

When I played ME1 I knew nothing about Shepard, what they looked like, what gender they were, none of the background on them or the plot.

I chose Male Shepard because I am Male and I chose the default face because It looked good, simple

I'm 100% certain that the vast  majority of people who buy games see the cover, and Mass Effect's very clearly depicts the protagonist as male. 

Modifié par EJ107, 19 novembre 2013 - 06:12 .

[Jeremiah12LGeek]

I've picked a female character for my first playthrough of every Dragon Age game, and have only ever used a female Shephard in Mass Effect.

Considering the time I spend on customizing characters, the single button press required to select "female" hardly seems like a chore.

And my decision is my own. It is not determined by marketing decisions.

I genuinely resent the implication that people who choose a particular character are "thinking for themselves" while everyone else is somehow being unduly influenced by sexist marketing. It's not exactly a fair double-standard.

I realize that not everyone is saying this, but it is a recurring over-simplification, and a grossly exaggerated one, at that.

It attributes sexist motivations to the people choosing sheploo, as well as doing so to the people who constructed the final character design interface.

I support the expansion of options, but I believe that politicizing everything into gender issues isn't fair to people, because it suggests that they are unable to think for themselves.

And as to the point about "Femshep" being a diminished representation, every person I know who has played both genders has repeatedly insisted that the female version of the character was better rendered thematically, and through dialogue. I don't believe BioWare is guilty of propagating a sexist phenomenon, here, I believe they are responding to market forces, while maintaining a high level of representation and customization.

Modifié par Jeremiah12LGeek, 19 novembre 2013 - 06:20 .

[Br3admax]

RinjiRenee wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

Are you insuiating that MaleShep was created without trying to make him an appealing protagonist? Every player character is made to be appealing to those that buy the product. That's business 101. It doesn't send a message about BioWare at all. A lot of people wanted to play a male protagonist, so they picked a male protagonist. Default Shepard is an appealing male protagonist. So they picked default Shepard, not because he was defualt, but because he was the type of character they wanted to play. He was made default because they knew that people would want to play him. That is how business works.

"That's Business 101"

[citation needed]

I still don't understand what you mean by "appealing."  Is it his rugged, handsome features that appeal to men?

Are you going to actually refute it, or are you just going to say citation needed. Give me an example where it isn't true. 

Appealing, quite simply means that it is what the player wants. Do you really believe that they just made MaleShep for the the hell of it? They just woke up one day and threw darts until they hit a character and said roll with it? 

[Anthadlas]

I think people need to get over the fixation that marketing should be equally representative of a products userbase.

The Game should try to be, But marketing cannot apply to every demographic without trailers becoming 10 minutes long and bloated.

Instead marketing is short and to the point and as such will appeal to the average player of games. Most of which are male.

Lots of women buy sports cars but the advertising is aimed at men. Lots of men use shampoo which is aimed at women. Neither is sexist, they are just trying to promote their product to the widest sample size in the shortest amount of time.

[Smashina]

The first thing my boyfriend said to me after seeing a Mass Effect trailer (not having any experience with the series outside of watching me play) was "Hey, I didn't know the main character was suppose to be a guy." Up until that point he had accepted a female protagonist but after that he felt it should have been male.

I am in favour of having a shadowy protagonist in the DAI marketing so that new players don't start the game feeling there is a certain character they are "suppose" to play as.

[frankf43]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

When talking about marketing, Male protagonists are going to get more focus since they are more popular. That just seems to me sound business sense, not sexism in marketing.

Itd be sexist if FemShep was played off as inferior in her trailer, and we all know that isnt the case. BioWare has done a very good job of making a female protagonist on par with the "default" male.

Theres going to be a need for all games to have a default image for trailers and box art etc.. (if the pc is customizable). I just dont see how a less popular character not recieving equal screen time in ads is sexist.

Because it's in large part a chicken and egg issue.

Especially since people keep telling me that it doesn't matter if it's a man or a woman.

But you are right that when dealing with large budgets and the imperfect science and causal relationships of marketing will create trepidation since "what if it DOES matter?"


Still, from the concepts of simply making people think about the topic, I have little issue with people discussing it.

If marketing a female main protagonist was counter productive with sales Tomb Raider would never have made it past the first game. 

As a male it really doesn't matter to me whether you put a male or female protagonist on the box or in the promotional videos I'll still play both male and female on my many playthroughs.

It would be nice if  the company did alternate between the two in its promotional material.

That being said I do think the world of Dragon Age has its fair share of powerful female characters. The DA team are really making an effort to be inclusive.

[AlexanderCousland]

Jaulen wrote...

FreshIstay wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Why shouldn't MaleShep be considered default? He's by Dar the more popular option.

Spending the money on equal representation for both genders in marketing just seems kinda pointless from an economic standpoint.

The problem comes that the association is made that women (and how this applies to a more global issue beyond just video games) are considered secondary.


While I see a lot of people actually refer to their male Shepard as things like Sheploo and so forth, Anita is of the opinion that it's still problematic on a larger scale issue that the woman Shepard has a large scale "FemShep."  Within the context of the rest of the video and how women characters are often given the personality of "woman" and in many cases seem to require obvious gendered imagery to denote that the character is a woman, it's still reasonably consistent.

I've formed the conscious opinion that not matter how a female is presented it will always be some sort of controversy
In any Medium. Movies, Game's, etc. even if said character is written or designed by a female themselves. The deep question is, Why is Male representation compared side by side with Female representation as if the two are in competition ? Even more, If a video game character is dressed scantly clad or provocative, IS that so far different from what we see from Female's in our own society? Isn't it possible Artist's draw from real life inspiration Strictly in terms of dress apparel and even character (Isabela) ? What is so unbearably wrong with the way a Male character artist views his female character? 

Yes...because as a female in a real world setting, if I was going to go off to battle I'd do it in a brass thong and a fur bikini top....

 As a Male I wouldn't fight bare chested with a giant axe and bottoms that barely cover my junk. My biceps wouldn't be the size of a human adult head either. 

[Rinji the Bearded]

Br3ad wrote...

Are you going to actually refute it, or are you just going to say citation needed. Give me an example where it isn't true. 

Appealing, quite simply means that it is what the player wants. Do you really believe that they just made MaleShep for the the hell of it? They just woke up one day and threw darts until they hit a character and said roll with it? 

The burden of proof is upon the person who made the claim.

They made Shepard because they wanted a protagonist for their game who was human.  They gave the player an option to play as either male or female Shepard.  They created Sheploo to be a face, and not because of his inherent maleness.   If you know of some poll that they staged to see what "players wanted," I'd like to see it.

Modifié par RinjiRenee, 19 novembre 2013 - 06:20 .

[Allan Schumacher]

Why is Male representation compared side by side with Female representation as if the two are in competition ?

Because in many cases the defining trait of the female character is that she is female. Look at Bowser's children, as shown in the video: You have the smart looking one, the goofy looking one, the crazy one, the girl one.

With Angry Birds you had gender neutral birds that were suddenly and retroactively made female because new versions came out that had girly things (bows/ribbons). As such, they established that the default was actually male.

Note, also, that Anita's video isn't a critique of advertising specifically.

The whole complaint sounds much more like it's taking the context out of the content to make things appear worse then they really are. If the trailers and promotional material showed female characters being inferior or little more then useless eyecandy, then there might be something. But thst isn't the case, and so an excuse needs to be invented from thin air about why psudo-femminists need to be angry at a currently popular upcoming game and give anita a reason to get more money to do something that could be done for free.

For some they feel that under representation (or even outright omission) is still a valid concern. Different people will value different things.


MOD Warning: The bolded is uncalled for and represents a contribution to a toxic and hateful environment. Personal attacks against Anita were already warned against so frankly I'm probably being lenient.

[Br3admax]

RinjiRenee wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

Are you going to actually refute it, or are you just going to say citation needed. Give me an example where it isn't true. 

Appealing, quite simply means that it is what the player wants. Do you really believe that they just made MaleShep for the the hell of it? They just woke up one day and threw darts until they hit a character and said roll with it? 

The burden of proof is upon the person who made the claim.

They made Shepard because they wanted a protagonist for their game who was human.  They gave the player an option to play as either male or female Shepard.   They did not poll any playerbase to use "Sheploo" as the so-called face of the game.

No, the burden of proof falls to the one who refutes the claim.

And no. They don't just make characters to make characters. They make one that will sell. It's a product, just like any other. 

[sunsphere5]

Does anyone else find it even a little ironic to compare the clamoring for extensive character customization (playable races, scars, armour, etc.) and the complaints about equal representation of genders in marketing/promotional materials and development processes?

Also, what decade is this? That this is even slightly controversial instead of being one of those "oh yeah, we should pay attention to this issue" topics is a bit...troubling.

[Allan Schumacher]

Are you going to actually refute it, or are you just going to say citation needed. Give me an example where it isn't true.

Appealing, quite simply means that it is what the player wants. Do you really believe that they just made MaleShep for the the hell of it? They just woke up one day and threw darts until they hit a character and said roll with it?

The problem with using the term "Sheploo" is that your assertion was that people chose to use Vanderloo's model, specifically, because it's what people wanted. At least that's what I thought you were saying.


EDIT: Also, moving this thread to off topic at this point.

[Anthadlas]

Jaulen wrote...

FreshIstay wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Why shouldn't MaleShep be considered default? He's by Dar the more popular option.

Spending the money on equal representation for both genders in marketing just seems kinda pointless from an economic standpoint.

The problem comes that the association is made that women (and how this applies to a more global issue beyond just video games) are considered secondary.


While I see a lot of people actually refer to their male Shepard as things like Sheploo and so forth, Anita is of the opinion that it's still problematic on a larger scale issue that the woman Shepard has a large scale "FemShep."  Within the context of the rest of the video and how women characters are often given the personality of "woman" and in many cases seem to require obvious gendered imagery to denote that the character is a woman, it's still reasonably consistent.

I've formed the conscious opinion that not matter how a female is presented it will always be some sort of controversy
In any Medium. Movies, Game's, etc. even if said character is written or designed by a female themselves. The deep question is, Why is Male representation compared side by side with Female representation as if the two are in competition ? Even more, If a video game character is dressed scantly clad or provocative, IS that so far different from what we see from Female's in our own society? Isn't it possible Artist's draw from real life inspiration Strictly in terms of dress apparel and even character (Isabela) ? What is so unbearably wrong with the way a Male character artist views his female character? 

Yes...because as a female in a real world setting, if I was going to go off to battle I'd do it in a brass thong and a fur bikini top....

And I would go in with amazing facial features and strapping biceps bursting out of my armour with a nice deep authoritarian voice. Males get generalised in videogames too, We just don't take offense at it.

Fact of the matter is that most game developers are male. So we get the generalised and perfect view on men from a male perspective and also perfect women from a male perspective . Hence why most are always attractive.

Now most feminists will say they need equal representation in the development workplace but simple fact is there are more males interesting in working in the gaming business than there are females. doing so would exclude men from jobs based on there gender and then that would be sexist.

Perfect and equal representation for both genders is a nice dream but unfortunatley in the real world it doesn't work as both have different preferences in different areas and always will do

[Allan Schumacher]

No, the burden of proof falls to the one who refutes the claim.

This actually isn't true at all. It's also remarkably convenient.

Frankly you provided an untestable claim which if we're going to be pedantic, would be irrelevant if we're going to discuss it based on scientific merit.